Where do you think we go when we die?

[FlippyD]

Careful Murcu, you're slipping into a lowered state of biblical debate. Take a deep breath, step back, and don't look directly at the sun. Those among us who do believe in the Bible, but realize the contradictions and thus, can still find meaning in the Bible and believe that dinosaurs were real, can talk with you all you like.

Creating a melodramatic maelstrom of your specific issues and pressing them on others as proof that their faith is fallible isn't cool man.

 

[Jonathan]

God sent his only "son" down to THEM. Not to us. And why does he onl have to have one son? He has INFINITE power.... he can't send a talking bird to my window to say, dude Tom, chill, I got it all figured out. Those people? Their deaths? Not a biggy.

One, In the Bible it does say dude, Tom, Chill, I got it all figured out (obviously not exact words, but it says I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper and not to harm you. God loves you, and has plans for your life that rock!)

Two: God sent his son to them, yes, but he died for EVERYONE! and because he did come to earth, get his hands dirty, feel rejection, experience the death of friends, and death for himself, he can sympathise with you. He has been through it all before. So, instead of a bird coming to your window, you can pray to him, and talk to him, and he can talk to you through christian friends, through the bible, and actually through him talking to you (like your conscience) but this doesn't come immediately. You need to learn to recognise his voice and tell it apart from just a vpoice you are making up in your head.

Three: There are three people in the trinity, as in God in three persons. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is identified as the son only after
he comes to earth as a baby, because then in a way God does become God's son. Before that he is identified as the angel of the Lord. So, that is why God only 'had' one son.

Plus, he only needed one son. the main job of jesus when he came to earth was to die for everybodies sins, and give them forgiveness. He died once and for all. It was an all encompasing sacrifice. "It is finished," Jesus cried on the cross. There is no need for another saviour.

For the full story read the Bible.

P.S i haven't seen the passion of the christ, i prefer the original book!

P.P.S As for revelation, God clearly shpows his plans in plain language through most of the bible, but Revelation (if you have read it) Is about the future. It is written in prophetic panguage because it was revealed ina vision, one of God's more metaphoric modes of contact.

 

[Sion]

Logically speaking, would it not be the same as before you were born?

 

[Murcu]

I understand all that, but I was never asking for another savior. For someone like me, who clearly really wanted to believe, and wanted help, why wouldn't god have done something more than just have a friend come along and say, "Man, god's there because he just is."
Why can't god show me, because I truly wanted to believe.

 

[Jonathan]

Have you prayed that God would show himself to you? My firend at school did that, and God did! (Unfortunately, he has since decided to turn his back on God, but hey, the point is God showed himself.) Reading your bible is unbelievably important, because It is God's message to humanity.

Plus, sometimes a friend comforting you can be an amazing expression of love.

It is quite hard for me to understand where you are coming from, cause i have been a Christian for ages, and God has shown himself to me, But for you, i don't really know what situation you are in with God (and i'm not asking to know btw). The point is (again) that God does know exactly where you are at. He knows everything about you, and everything you have ever done, but he still cares.

To summarise (lol) Pray about it! God wants you to talk to him.

 

[FlippyD]

I understand all that, but I was never asking for another savior. For someone like me, who clearly really wanted to believe, and wanted help, why wouldn't god have done something more than just have a friend come along and say, "Man, god's there because he just is."
Why can't god show me, because I truly wanted to believe.

Let me try and answer this is in a way that doesn't sound like a chik trax or Bible-thumper newsletter...

This is what I came up with when I had trouble with religion and Christianity, and wanted to believe, but kept on getting slapped in the face anyway.

Let's take a step back and ask, what is God? Or more importantly, what makes God - God (in the Christian sense.) The Bible and Christians say God is God because he is holy, that's his/her defining trait. So, what is holy? The dictionary defines this as something to be revered and worshiped, but if we look deeper into that I believe we will see that God is holy and revered because he/she doesn't fall back on his/her word.

Also, it has been mused logically for a while now that should God fall back on his/her word, or if his/her word is undone then God would cease to exist.

Ok then, what else do we know about God? Well, God is supposed to be a being of love and compassion, and here's where the main counter-argument come in. We human beings bear witness to the cruel acts of the day, why would a just and loving God allow such things to occur? Well, let's think of it this way...

God wants love, he/she's supposed to be a being of great love. Love, however, isn't one-way, and love prospers best in a relationship where the feeling is mutual. Think of the angels, God created them but they have no real choice on whether to follow God or not. They see him/her all the time. Yes, there's supposedly Satan and the other fallen angels, but they rebelled against God because of the creation of man, which I'll get to in a minute.

So then, we have humans who, have a choice to love God or not. When you think about it this way it's obvious. Those humans that choose to love God regardless of proof. Who can love a being through faith alone is the most powerful kind of love. If we all could see God and Jesus all the time then we'd have no choice but to love God. He/she's there, let's get on our knees and bow a whole lot, whooo!

Thus, you see, the more you look for proof of God's existence the less likely he/she's inclined to show you his/her presence. When you choose to believe he/she exists, and love him/her for it the closer you get. Personally, I think all of those one-hit "miracles" people talk about that get them into the religion are pure coincidental. But that's just me.

There's a bit more I feel I should explain but I have class soon and I haven't taken a shower yet. Hopefully my f'in roomate will've gotten out by now.

 

[Jonathan]

Well said

Jesus actually said to one of his disciples who doubted: "you believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe but haven't seen."

So yeah, nicely put (better than i could do.)

 

[Murcu]

Love isn't just believing. I mean, seriously, I believe in Osama Bin Laden, and I certainly don't love him. The angels who fell believed in God and they don't love him.
Why, then, should a person who has always been faithful and always been a good person be cornered into feeling completely abandoned just because god won't show himself.
Love is not one sided. That's why my relationship fell apart with 'god' I suppose. I loved and showed my love for all the world to see. God? God apparently loved quietly and away from the prying eyes of those who love him.

Don't you see?

 

[Grandor]

Even though I have a hard time believing this, it's true that God is looking over you. The problem is, he doesn't want to just hand you all the stuff you need. Don't think by praying to him for some game you really want, or something you really think you need, you'll get it. God wants you to live prosperous but he wants you to take responsibility for your actions as well, and not give you everything. Life would be boring if God just gave us everything we wanted. And you are not allowed to see God, because you have sinned. The only way to see God, is by asking for his mercy, and purifying yourself in the name of God. Then, when you are truly in touch with him, you are allowed to see his great glory. Personally, (sometimes anyway, I've had some experiences in which I can only thank God) I think you just got to rely on yourself and stop praying. You won't get anything done. You won't get anything done by just sitting around wishing it would happen. You got to make it happen.

 

[arcthemonkey]

The only thing God asks in return for breathing life into your your body and dying for your sins is that you have faith in him. Not faith that you will have a happy, peachy existance, oh no (The bible says life is gonna suck for christians) - rather faith he will take you to a better place when it's over.

I think God has already worked for my love. Nothing I can ever do would "earn" the love he's already shown for me. I don't expect him to constantly refresh this - although he does often do great works in my life. But I had no expectations of bliss and serenity - quite the opposite. I have comfort in knowing that his kingdom will come and I will be a part of it. This life I'm living now is insignificant.

I typed a responce to things you said earlier Murcu, but my internet connection at home crapped out. As soon as I can get that square away I intend to post it.

For now - please read this: http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm and think about it.

 

[Jonathan]

I agree completely with grandor and arcthemonkey. God has also shown me love in my life. When i have been down, thinking i can never do anything right, and that i have failed him sooo badly and nothing i ever do is good enough, He just reminds me that he created me the way i am, and he doesn't expect perfection, just that we try to love him.

So many times you see those lame bumper stickers which say Jesus Loves You and various other things, but it is so true! He was willing to go through hell for us! I mean :O!!!

@Murcu You say you loved God (and i completely believe you), but what God? as in the god of the Bible or what?

 

[FlippyD]

Love isn't just believing. I mean, seriously, I believe in Osama Bin Laden, and I certainly don't love him. The angels who fell believed in God and they don't love him.
Why, then, should a person who has always been faithful and always been a good person be cornered into feeling completely abandoned just because god won't show himself.
Love is not one sided. That's why my relationship fell apart with 'god' I suppose. I loved and showed my love for all the world to see. God? God apparently loved quietly and away from the prying eyes of those who love him.

Don't you see?

I'm a Christian, and really, I don't expect jack squat from God. He gave the Earth to man, to have dominion over it, to speak over the land and all that fun stuff. It also says God has dominion over heaven and hell. If then we are to believe that humans control Earth while God controls heaven and hell then why would you expect God to help every single person when they have the power to help themselves? Hell, God had to come down in human form as Jesus in order to do some real ass-whoopin' because he needed a human form.

I know God could help me in my own personal problems, but things aren't so one-sided. Let's use Bin Laden as an example (since you mentioned him.) He has a religion and a faith, and he wants American's to be slaughtered in the streets. Should God help him?

Or perhaps a less extreme example. Say there's a man dying in a hospital. His friends and family want him alive, but perhaps his death causes some of those around him to think about life in a different light and they adopt a child, or help charities more often? I don't suppose it will do any good to seriously contemplate the matter, and I don't think God kills people to teach humanity a lesson, moreover I think he doesn't do anything because it isn't needed. If God where to show up everywhere, even to those who believe him, it could count as definitive proof of his existence and he'd cease to exist.

Besides, it's those who should have "faith" in him that are the least likely to need proof of his existence. Personally, I don't like those people who hang unto the religion and God like he's some kind of magical wish machine. God didn't make Peter walk on the water with Jesus, it was Peter himself, and his faith.

 

[Jonathan]

He wouldn't cease to exist, but relationships would be way less meaningful with him. like you said, faith is an important part of a relationship with God, along with hope and love.

(away for the weekend. see you guys!)

 

[Murcu]

Ixis, that was a really well reasoned rebuttal.
But, here's what I'm mostly trying to say, even though I'm sure you probably already understand it, just disagree. (I don't want to seem as though I'm talking in circles)
When I got permanent damage in my leg in high school and lost my ability to play sports, join the navy, and all that other stuff, I didn't lose faith. When I fell into my deepest pits of depression and contemplated suicide, I didn't because of my faith.
My point is, I didn't need help with my problems. I never would ask god "please help me be undepressed." "please give me my knee back".
But it was when I felt myself falling away from him.... losing touch- that's when I prayed. I prayed to him PLEASE don't let me fall away. I want to believe in you and bla bla bla.

I never felt even the slightest little pang in my head saying, It's alright, I'm here and I love you.
I felt nothing, and that's when I gave up.

 

[Bryta]

When you die, you are going to the same place you were before you were born. Nothingness. That´s why you can´t be afraid of being dead. How many of you felt uncomfortable before you were born? How can you feel anything when you are nothing? Death is not so bad. It´s worse for the ones we leave behind.

 

[Roman Candle]

Being afraid of being dead is not the same as being afraid while being dead :p Obviously, you can't be afraid when you're dead. Because you're dead. But when you face your death, you get to regret everything you havn't done, (or have). It's like being pulled away from a hundred thousand lotteries. You know would would have won at least something on at least some of them, so you're sad.

 

[Bryta]

I know what you mean. Of course you can be afriad of dieng, but I don´t think that death is something you have to fear. It´s like before you were born!

Facing your death and live could be a real life-changeover. But then, if you die, that means bull.

 

[FlippyD]

When you die, you are going to the same place you were before you were born. Nothingness. That´s why you can´t be afraid of being dead. How many of you felt uncomfortable before you were born? How can you feel anything when you are nothing? Death is not so bad. It´s worse for the ones we leave behind.

I was afraid before I was born.
On a slightly related note, I was born psychic.

Is there any proof that makes nothingness the deciding factor? Perhaps there was no fear pre-life because we knew nothing of fear, however after living through life we get ample lessons of the horror that is fear, thus we can take that fear to the grave.

 

[Bryta]

I don´t believe in psychics.

And I know that everyone is individual in their after-death-believes... The only fear I can come to think of, is if you accept the fact that you are going back to the pre-born state when you die, is the fear of not exist. Wich is perfectly reasonbly, thats why man man invented religion.

 

[FlippyD]

I don´t believe in psychics.

And I know that everyone is individual in their after-death-believes... The only fear I can come to think of, is if you accept the fact that you are going back to the pre-born state when you die, is the fear of not exist. Wich is perfectly reasonbly, thats why man man invented religion.

Personally I'd rather not exist, if given the chance in any afterlife I think I will use all eternity to find some way NOT to exist. Really, everything sucks... I'm serious, I don't see why bother with the insanity that is existence.

EDIT: Also, I was joking... Maybe...

Psionics is like magic. You gotta be clever to use it. Of course it isn't real, but if you pull it off people think it's real and that's what counts. 'Least as bar pickup tricks go.