Where do you think we go when we die?

[Grandor]

A book that was written in a language that is no longer used anymore, probably mistranslated and is over 1,000 years old is going to dictate how you live your life? Look, I know the Bible has some pretty fascinating stuff, but most of the stuff in it can be dis proven by science. And the Bible is filled with philosophical meanings. It doesn't really have many clear statements. Also, to contribute to the fact of being inaccurate. The people who wrote the Bible used languages that aren't even in use this day. And your going to tell me some scholar ordered by King James in the 1600's deciphered all of that flawlessly to come up with this great work supposidely written by those closest to God? The Bible is a great book, don't get me wrong, but some things in it can't be taken as literal fact. (Which is just about everything in it.)

 

[lunarhiro2002]

It's also been said that people are infused with a sense of right and wrong something that God prescribed to them. It's up to people to follow those instincts.

Like in the bible Abraham was not a Jew before God came to him. He worshiped idols and stuff. So...God does come to people even if people don't spread the word to them.

How is that mixed? How hard is it to imagine a God so powerful that He can be everywhere at the same time guiding every single person wether they realize it or not?

I think that there are many instances in peoples lives where they deny God in order to do what they would rather do. In Ancient China did you know that Chinese words are in such a way that they paint pictures? (I don't remember what the word is called or used for, but) But, there is a word where they use it to discribe like Man or Woman or something I can't remember but the discription of it is a man in a garden and a snake pushing them out...or something like that I can't remember I'll have to ask someone

There are many refrences to God in ways other then missionaries.

 

[Jonathan]

A book that was written in a language that is no longer used anymore, probably mistranslated and is over 1,000 years old is going to dictate how you live your life?

How much of it have you actually read? I mean, how many of these opinions are yours, or just borrowed from others. I ask this because some of your statments are completely wrong. The majority of the Bible is historically written, i.e. the books of Law (the first five books), Joshua, Judges, ruth, Samuel I, Samuel II, Kings I, Kings II, chronicles I, Chronicles II, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job and the gospels. so, these are not written 'philisophically' (I think the word you mean is metaphorically). Yeah, so there are some books of prophecy which use some poetic language, especially revelation, but the books that deal with how to be saved are written in plain english. Read Mark's Gospel, and Romans (A letter). they Clearly Explain about God's love, and the Life of Jesus.

As for how much they have been changed, The oldest copy of the Old testament (before Jesus was Born) Is the dead sea scrolls, which contain every book of the old testament except Ruth. When one compares these to the modern translation they are almost EXACTLY the same. the degree of accuracy is incredible! As for the new testament, it was all written within about 50 years of Jesus' death. for those times, this was like a photocopy! To put in perspective, the earliest book written about Julius ceasar was written over 100 years (as far as i can remember- definately longer than the new testament) after his death! yet no historian doubts the accuracy of this book.

EDIT: Plus, the more time spans between the original hebrew or greek copy of the Bible, the MORE accurate our translation gets, because our knowledge of ancient greek and hebrew is growing all of the time. Every decent translation of the bible is translated Directly from the earliest known copies. And so... Mistranslation can't really happen in the way you stated.

the more we find out about the Bible, the more historically, propheticaly, and scientifically accurate it is proven to be. Plus, i believe it was inspired by God. would God really let his word, his 'letter to humanity' be corrupted?

As for the scientifically disproved sections, I challenge you to show me some examples.

I choose to live the way the Bible suggests because it was written by the Guy who CREATED me. I think he probably knows what humans best need in there lives! I was saved from hell by the words in the Bible, and i entered into an awesome relationship with God through it.

Before you post, research please.

Jonathan

 

[FlippyD]

I agree with Jon. I too used to doubt the validity of the Bible's entirety, but then someone made a post with a link to a site that actually had information about the Bible's historical accuracy and by reading that, and looking into the subject more, I found out that the Bible's pretty accurate. There are still a few things in the Bible that I question, but hardly any of them have to do with the translation, and really, everyone finds their own way to hem and haw around the Bible.

Back on the thread topic and debate, I find it questionable the fact that everyone goes to heaven regardless of whether they've heard about Jesus or not. That invalidates the importance of the church and missionaries. Furthermore, people who've grown up around Christianity have a bit more leeway as far as heavenly redemption is concerned. They get to be familiar with a lot more rules they can dance around, and instead of having some subtle life-altering event occur in their lives they can sin all they want up to the very end where they repent and get to hang out in heaven and clean the pool or whatever.

I think the next key to understanding this is to ponder the circumstances surrounding missionaries, as well as the Christian ideology that going around and hitting people over the head with Bibles until they listen to you, came about. A strong argument could be made that the central pillar of Christianity (today, in the publics eye) is to ramble about some old book and nag people about their sins. If we truly don't need the nagging (and trust me, I'd love to give it up as soon as possible) then where did the notion of nagging come from?


EDIT: Also, Lunar, you're using old testament references which gets invalidated by the new testament as far as getting on God's good side is concerned.

 

[Jonathan]

I guess forcing the Bible down peoples throat as it were stems from being so 'on fire' for God that you want to tell everyone about him all the time. Unfortunately this can be at the wrong time and seem intrusive, especially if you get into heated debates.

Maybe as time goes on people have lost the fire, but kept the intrusiveness, and so you end up with some christian who only cares about rules instead of God's love, and tries to force rules down your throat. The best way to tell someone about your faith can be found in the Bible (surprise surprise) where it says:

"...Worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it. 16 But do this in a gentle and respectful way. Keep your conscience clear. Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ. "

As it says here, the best way to tell someone about Jesus is with gentleness and respect. How many people get that wrong is untrue! Probably well over half of the God related topics in this forum have at least one post with an example of a christian being disrespectful and pushy. Christians (me included) need to open their eyes to what it says in the Bible. Read it. It is a bestseller!

P.S actually, looking back at my previous post i was a bit pushy and disrespectful myself. Sorry Grandor.

P.P.S Actually, ixis, The God of the new testament is the same as the Old testemant, as is the way to please him. Sacrifices and stuff were abolished in the new testemant because Jesus had died for our sins, so we could see how serious sin was (i.e. serious enough that God had to come down to save us from it). In the Old testament they didn't have the example of Jesus, so God used the shedding of animal blood to show people how serious sin was (and to point forward to Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice).

So it is better (probably) to quote the new testemant, but the whole Bible is valid. In the old testemant Samuel says to David that actually what God desires more than sacrifice (i.e. doing stuff to try and please him) is for someone to love him and have faith in him, the same as what God requests today.

Lunar, the example of Abraham is actually pretty good, i wouldn't have thought of it! lol

 

[Shadow_Strike]

I believe we will all turn into Kuragmalai's. I don't know what that is, but it sounds cool. Like Kami.

But honestly, I think dieing is like sleeping, so you go to sleep. Only... without the waking up part.
Reborn is also pretty cool.

So is that beer volcano and stripper factory. (Someone please tell me you get that reference)

 

[Murcu]

I believe in Stoicism more and more every day.
I'd explain it, but my fingers are feeling lazy. See if you can't find some writings by Seneca on wikipedia or something, because he does a very good job of explaining it.

EDIT: forgot to mention that stoics believe in no afterlife, but that life does go on forever. everyone has a natural energy that leaves their body when you die. It's technically your soul, but it doesn't have anything to do with you really.

 

[Jonathan]

All of these ideas that people are putting forward are just what makes them have a warm fuzzy inside. But reality isn't like that. People go to hell. not a nice fact to face up to, but they do. However, like I said before it isn't all bad news (see previous post(s)). The point i am trying to make is just because you make something up (beer volcano example) it doesn't mean that it is the truth. We can't decide what the truth is. i.e. If a tidal wave is going to hit Calafornia, it is going to hit whether people believe it or not.

So, the reincarnation things, the eternal sleep, i am inclined to disregard them, because there is no downside. They sound like something made up by people to make them feel better. Christianity, though, doesn't have this made up feel. the Bible shows humans warts and all. yup, i reckon the Bible isn't a Book someone could write if they would, or would write if they could.

 

[Murcu]

Wow, that was the most ridiculously non-fact supported rebuttal I've ever encountered in all my years of forum debate. Congrats, you get a star.
Right now I don't have time to tell you what's wrong with it, but soon.

 

[Jonathan]

I know it isn't fact, it is my way of thinking, but then again, none of yours are fact either! Reincarnation, and stoicism is just as much non-fact supported 'rubbish' (for want of a better word) as christianity, even more so maybe.

I never said that was a fact supported rebutal. this is a discussion. people are entitled to opinions.

 

[Murcu]

I realize all that, but you shouldn't you try explaining a little better in what way a religion that sends a person who's having premarital sex to burn and be tortured for an eternity is "more human" than other things?
And let me tell ya, I certainly don't find the idea of an "eternal sleep" warm and fuzzy. I find it disgustingly hopeless. Goodbye to everything, you're dead. I'd much rather be SURE that there is a Heaven.
But lets talk about this incredibly human God of yours and his divine and infallable personality. A God so proud that he refuses to come down and help walk a person who is struggling with their faith, with homosexuality, with abusive parents, with cancer, with getting ready to commit murder.
Yes, I realize God gave us free choice, but let's not forget that he is omnipresent and omnipotent- he can help us without problem.
But why doesn't he? Because he wants to be sure that we got through life on our own? Isn't the whole point of believing in God to believe that he is there to help us when we need it? Well I haven't seen it. I didn't see it when my friend got bone marrow cancer, when my other friend's mother died of a brain clot last year, I didn't see it as my Grandmother struggled for air during her last moments while my grandfather looked on helplessly, and I certainly didn't see him during the ensuing months during which I struggled to the point of near suicide as I attempted to come to terms with these losses and get my faith back.
But no. Your god is too human for that.

"Christianity doesn't have this made up feel"
Adam and Eve ate an apple and cursed their species for eternity. Jesus will come again from the clouds as four HORSEMEN ride in to start killing people mercilessly from the sky. An angel came down to tell a pregnant woman that she was carrying god's child. Jesus curses a fig tree to Hell for not providing him with any figs.

"I reckon the Bible is something... someone would write if they could"
Dude. Honestly? Tolkien, Shakespeare, Rowling, L. RON HUBBARD (for crying out loud) have also managed to write books so detailed that people form their lives around them. I mean, I totally respect your beliefs, but I think it's a bit high-and-mighty to believe someone isn't creative to craft the Bible by putting together a bunch of stories that have been developing for a bazillion years.

 

[FlippyD]

I know it isn't fact, it is my way of thinking, but then again, none of yours are fact either! Reincarnation, and stoicism is just as much non-fact supported 'rubbish' (for want of a better word) as christianity, even more so maybe.

I never said that was a fact supported rebutal. this is a discussion. people are entitled to opinions.

... Say what?

Dude, you reported your opinion as fact, no one else did!

And as a rebuttal to your earlier post as a Christian I don't believe people go to hell. It clearly contradicts the "God loves all his/her people" rule. And if God doesn't love all his/her creations then God will have contradicted himself/herself. And if God contradicts him/herself than God will cease to be holy, and if God ceases to be holy than he doesn't exist, and by the laws of omnipresence and being everywhere at every time at once that would cause a quantum singularity which would fold the universe in on itself.

So, while I don't have solid evidence to prove or disprove the existence of hell, logic (as well as the alleged importance of hell popping up in the medieval ages over the love of redemption and salvation) I'm inclined to believe that your point of view is incorrect.

 

[Roman Candle]

I'm sorry, people clearly don't go to hell. Knowing that people were in hell would be a hell in itself for people in heaven. I mean, people threw up and passed unconscious from watching saw 3. I don't think anyone could stand the infinite suffering of other for all eternity. Unless when you die, you leave your empathy behind in your mirror neurones. The worst mass murderer surely would, if actually faced with God, instantly repent all their sins and be overcome with bliss and rejoice in the name of the lord and so on. If God is perfectly mercyful, perfectly loving, then obviously he wouldn't send anyone to hell.

NB Believing in a religion because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy is no less ridiculous that believing in a religion because it doesn't. The only possible reason to follow a religion is because you feel faith for it. There's nothing else to be said on the matter.

 

[Jonathan]

I didn't see it when my friend got bone marrow cancer, when my other friend's mother died of a brain clot last year, I didn't see it as my Grandmother struggled for air during her last moments while my grandfather looked on helplessly, and I certainly didn't see him during the ensuing months during which I struggled to the point of near suicide as I attempted to come to terms with these losses and get my faith back.

I seriously am sorry. In light of what has happened to you I suppose to present it as truth without properly explaining myself sucks. I am really sorry.

But lets talk about this incredibly human God of yours and his divine and infallable personality. A God so proud that he refuses to come down and help walk a person who is struggling with their faith, with homosexuality, with abusive parents, with cancer, with getting ready to commit murder.

Ok, lets talk about him. You say he refuses to come down to earth... Dude, The whole point of christianity is he DID come down to earth! Jesus came down to earth as a man, because he loves us. He got stuck in helping people with illnesses, turning peoples lives around, revolutionising the jewish community at the time. He performed miracles, He brought people back from the dead, He calmed a raging storm!
But because some people decided that this peaceful but awesome guy was too much of a threat to their rule, they decided to kill him. He was tried unjustly, and found guilty, though he was innocent. Then he was mocked, spat on.
He was flogged by the romans. The whips they used had bits of bone and lead in them to tear into skin, peeling flesh from bone. Roman flogging was so brutal that it often killed the victim before they were crucified. Then, they shoved a crown on his head, a twisted pun on him being the king of the jews. this crown was made of thorns as long as your finger. they jammed it into his skull, and then after all this mocked him again, and tore out his beard.
Then, he was forced to carry a massive wooden crossbar up a hill, but he was so tired and worn out that he collapsed under the weight of it. when he got to the top of the hill, they threw him onto a roughly cut wooden cross and forced nails through his hands and feet. they lifted him up, naked, in front of a crowd and spat and jeered at him. He slowly suffocated from the crucifixion. A crucifixion is possibly the most brutal way to die.
Yet this wasn't the worst of it. While this was happening, He took all of our sins, and took them through hell on the cross. We are all doomed to hell from the moment we first do something wrong, but God, this 'proud' being, came down to earth as a mere man to take the punishment for us.
But of course this God is so proud that he doesn't come down to help us.

I too have had things like what you said happen to me. I haven't struggled with suicide, but I have had friends die from cancer. But God does help.
If you pray to him, then he will help. If you pray to him he will give you a shoulder to lean on, to cry on. He has you in his hands.

Because, the awesome thing is, that Jesus didn't stop at dying. he defeated death itself and rose from the dead. He ascended to heaven, and now he promises that we can have a life with him, through his spirit.

I really am sorry for all the bad stuff that has happened to you, God didn't create the world with death and disease in it. But when humans first sinned, they brought it upon theirselves. From that point, in the garden of Eden (the fruit wasn't an apple btw, we don't know what it was) things have gone downhill. People die, disease comes. But in the future, the pain and death will stop. the horesmen (poetic language, revelation is a book of prophecy) and everything else will happen, and God will create a new heaven and a new earth, where everyone who has accepted the forgiveness and accepted that Jesus took the punishment for them can go to be with God!

But it is a gift. You need to accept it. that is why people go to hell. Not because God hates them (God defines Love), but because they didn't accpet the escape offered to them by this loving God.

I am sorry for the stuff that has happened to you, but God cries with you. He wants to help you, He wants to be with you, heck, he wants to be with everyone, but he doesn't force himself upon people. You have to ask.

Please forgive me for being a fool.

Jonathan.


P.S the fig tree thing was an illustration of God's power, and What i meant about the Bible is not that it is a fantastic piece of literature, but that It so says Mankind is rubbish, and shows up all there faults, that no-one would want to write something like that about themselves! sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Rhazdel]

We go to Florida.

 

[Junk-Man]

I do believe that there is a dimension that we go to after we die, but I don't believe there is a heaven or hell.

I do believe that there is order in the chaos that is the Universe, but I don't believe that there is a God. I mean, if there is, Free Will is moot, right? Every human being is accountable for their own lives, and when they die, they have to answer for what they do--not necessarilly to God or whomever you believe in, but to the people you leave behind. Its all about legacy. What do you want to leave on this Earth when you leave it?

As for other beliefs, such as reincarnation, I believe that they are plausible too.

 

[TofuMatt]

We go to Florida.

Zing!

 

[lunarhiro2002]

If God is perfectly mercyful, perfectly loving, then obviously he wouldn't send anyone to hell.

Hey you know what your right, and all you have to do to make that true for yourself and everyone is to believe in Jesus Christ.

Part of the way God has shown mercy on us is by having His Son, die so that we can have everlasting life, freely.

God is all those things and he doesn't send people to hell. Hell is a choice you make by not being a believer. Hell was not created for people, it was created to house Lucifer and other fallen angels.

It's your choice what happens to you after death.

NB Believing in a religion because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy is no less ridiculous that believing in a religion because it doesn't. The only possible reason to follow a religion is because you feel faith for it. There's nothing else to be said on the matter.

Faith for a Christian is the substance of things hoped for.

We have many reasons for our faith. Such as love, proof, salvation, promises, community, happiness, ect. God has given us many reasons to believe Him.

I think what Jonathan was saying by it being a "warm and fuzzy" sort of belief, was that with all these new idea's comming out the current trend is to not deny any of them. The politically correct response to everything is to say well hey, if thats what you believe then that is true for you. I think that sort of thought is wrong. There are clear defined wrongs and rights in our universe.

 

[FlippyD]

Hey you know what your right, and all you have to do to make that true for yourself and everyone is to believe in Jesus Christ.

Part of the way God has shown mercy on us is by having His Son, die so that we can have everlasting life, freely.

God is all those things and he doesn't send people to hell. Hell is a choice you make by not being a believer. Hell was not created for people, it was created to house Lucifer and other fallen angels.

It's your choice what happens to you after death.

I'm sorry, but don't you think that statement is... Slightly skewed? The choice between heaven and hell isn't a choice mortals make for themselves in that regard. That's saying that people actively make decisions and at the same time acknowledge and know of whatever obscure ruling someone said at some time and understand the exact nuance and context of which said rule was created through.

God made heaven and hell right? And it's God's rules that determine who goes where after death (supposedly) so wouldn't that make it God's decision, not ours? Besides, God hasn't made all that solid an argument over the existence in heaven and hell (and you can just look at the myriad of responses in this thread to get a clue.) As much as a Christian I am I can't just sit back and admit that God would send people to hell. Saying it exists is also saying God's the one behind the decision process, after all, he's the only one holy enough to be able to make such a judgment on a persons soul.

 

[Murcu]

Jesus came down to earth as a man, because he loves us. He got stuck in helping people with illnesses, turning peoples lives around, revolutionising the jewish community at the time. He performed miracles, He brought people back from the dead, He calmed a raging storm!
But because some people decided that this peaceful but awesome guy was too much of a threat to their rule, they decided to kill him. He was tried unjustly, and found guilty, though he was innocent. Then he was mocked, spat on.
He was flogged by the romans. The whips they used had bits of bone and lead in them to tear into skin, peeling flesh from bone. Roman flogging was so brutal that it often killed the victim before they were crucified. Then, they shoved a crown on his head, a twisted pun on him being the king of the jews. this crown was made of thorns as long as your finger. they jammed it into his skull, and then after all this mocked him again, and tore out his beard.
Then, he was forced to carry a massive wooden crossbar up a hill, but he was so tired and worn out that he collapsed under the weight of it. when he got to the top of the hill, they threw him onto a roughly cut wooden cross and forced nails through his hands and feet. they lifted him up, naked, in front of a crowd and spat and jeered at him. He slowly suffocated from the crucifixion. A crucifixion is possibly the most brutal way to die.
Yet this wasn't the worst of it. While this was happening, He took all of our sins, and took them through hell on the cross. We are all doomed to hell from the moment we first do something wrong, but God, this 'proud' being, came down to earth as a mere man to take the punishment for us.

Congratulations, I saw Passion of the Christ too.
And I know all the stages of he cross.
God sent his only "son" down to THEM. Not to us. And why does he onl have to have one son? He has INFINITE power.... he can't send a talking bird to my window to say, dude Tom, chill, I got it all figured out. Those people? Their deaths? Not a biggy.

Instead, I have these horrible mental pictures of these poor people burning in hell screaming for their mothers as bird chew out their livers.
Hell is ruling your people by fear. Is God so insecure as to need to do that?

ALSO, the fact that you think Book of Rev is a metaphor is in itself very problematic. First, you think that man couldn't have written the Bible- so God wrote with metaphors? That's a totally logical and reasonable thing to do when people base their lives off your every word.
/sarcasm
Second, MOST Christian religions are supposed to believe in the ABSOLUTE truth of the Bible. I suggest you do some research into what sect you belong to, where you'll most likely find a 'doctrine' telling you that the Bible is truth.
"they didn't accept the escape" its not an escape if we have to kill ourselves getting there. Hell, it's a crime.


Most importanly though, is this: you saying your sorry that all this bad shit has happened to me. Do you think I give a shit about myself in those situations? No. It's hearing someone beg God for his life as he struggles to cope with his terminal illness that breaks my soul. No one's demanding God, just hoping for him, and asking.
But apparently it isn't enough.
Perfectly decent people continue to die, and perfectly horrible people continue to live