Mapping Improvement Thread 4

[Tuna]

I still think it's a good idea to keep in mind that certain things should not be in a prison cell. More or less anything that could be used as a weapon. :biggrin:

 

[RavenTDA]

Adding too much to the jail cell becomes iffy. I dunno if they'd have a table and water bowl for them or not...

But as for the extra tiles... I think there's a default "dirt" autotile in XP (I think it's yellow / sandish looking) as well as a mouse that's just about as big as a rat in comparison to the people anyways you could use. Then there's this:

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/2259/creditmack.png

Which is an old Mack tileset for XP that's not on the Internet anymore but I had it laying around my compy. I it's got a messed up bed in there as well as some spider webs and other screwed up and ruined stuffs.

 

[StrawberrySmiles]

Right, that's true. I can easily change out that "rat" for the mouse. I did find spider webs, but I couldn't figure out where to place them. D= The dirt path should become useful.

If I could, I'd change all the tilesets to Mack like that one (if I could find them), so it wouldn't bee the RTP... I'll see what I can do.

I dunno. XD

 

[rey meustrus]

You could have the dirt and spider webs or not, doesn't matter. Differences between cells is a good idea, but if you have a different plan for the dungeon that's OK. I think this map is fine now and you should move on to something else.

 

[StrawberrySmiles]

Yeah, for all I know the decorator as a knack for keeping symmetary in his works. XD

I think it looks fine. Will move on, now. ^^

Thanks everyone!

 

[ShadowMainZERO]

Since no one remarked upon it the last time, I'll repost my village map (it's not the latest version. I've made a few changes here and there but mostly to events).

Spoiler: Ludai Village

 

[RavenTDA]

It's better to take screen shots without the grid... so everyone can see it more clear... Right now everything is looking pretty boring and plain. It's a good start but the plants and such are kinda all over the place and by themselves. I'm also not sure why a small town like that could need more than one well. If it was the desert then yeah that's different... But yeah seems a bit strange.

Plants normally group together. This goes especially for all those wild shrubs and flowers. They are scattered but in groups and kinda randomly placed in those groups. You're not really going to find a perfect square of four tiles of flowers in the wild... however you can place tiles like that near a house because people are all orderly and like places for things.

Add some more trees... less chopped down ones. Normally when people chop down trees it's for fire wood (that they get outside the village!) or they chop them down to clear ways for houses and paths. There's probably stumps closer to people's houses. From here I can't tell if those flowers are ON the house or slightly in front of it. Why not add some wild flowers... some stuff growing up from the houses? You can also add chopped up wood outside people's houses besides just the one. And if there's a store why not some barrels and crates on the outside?

 

[ShadowMainZERO]

t's better to take screen shots without the grid... so everyone can see it more clear

I used the grid on this one because I had to take the picture in two parts. The grid was there so I could get the two pieces to aline as best as I could.

I'm also not sure why a small town like that could need more than one well.

It's for convince mostly. You see, there's an rater massive (large enough to possibly become an optional dungeon) lake underneath the village. This lake was discovered about a decade or so ago when an earthquake caused the collapse of a section that was reasonably close to the surface. After exploring it a bit, the people of the village built a ladder to easily enter an exit it, made their entrance area more stable, and built a guard house/supply hut near it. The lake is mentioned in an conversation that the player must read and you can see what leads to the entrance in an early cut scene.

Plants normally group together. This goes especially for all those wild shrubs and flowers. They are scattered but in groups and kinda randomly placed in those groups.

Okay. I'll admit, after looking at the map as a whole it does look rather bland.

You're not really going to find a perfect square of four tiles of flowers in the wild

Where did I do that?

Add some more trees... less chopped down ones. Normally when people chop down trees it's for fire wood (that they get outside the village!) or they chop them down to clear ways for houses and paths.

I do believe I keep saying that the town is close to a forest so more trees would make more sense, wouldn't they?

From here I can't tell if those flowers are ON the house or slightly in front of it.

Perspective problem. They're slightly in front. I wouldn't make a mistake that stupid (unless I intended for flowers to be growing on the house somehow).

Why not add some wild flowers... some stuff growing up from the houses?

Quite a few people in real life like to keep the outside of their houses tidy of such things. Some people do let the wildlife grow naturally and just trim here and there but most don't.

You can also add chopped up wood outside people's houses besides just the one.

There are a couple of reasons why only one house has wood piled up outside. For starters, it's about late Spring at the start of the game and that area is rather humid. It tends to stay warm during the night if it's warm during the day. Second, most people store their wood indoors. Not because they're afraid someone will steal it but when they need it, it is be easier to grab some from a pile in their home (especially during Winter). They also tend to keep excess wood stored in their attic.

And if there's a store why not some barrels and crates on the outside?

Because storing your wears outside is stupid? The entrances to the the shops are in the town hall and when you go inside you can see their stockpile behind their desks (like Chrono Trigger).

I'll consider your suggestions and try to make it look more active. I also might edit some of the buildings.

 

[gRaViJa]

Okay, you have a lot of explanation, but the result is that your map is bland and empty. It's still a game, fantasy, so don't take realism too far. Better a beautifull, but slightly unrealistic map then a boring, empty map.

 

[ShadowMainZERO]

I suppose I just need to find a happy medium between the two. I suppose my problem is that villages in video games have never really impressed me. Since I was born into the 5th Generation (I do believe that was the N64, PS1, and Saturn), 2D backgrounds never impressed me period. Even though I love and still play 2D games, it's because of their story or gameplay.

I suppose that if I truly want to get better I have to get past the assumption that nothing can look beautiful in 2.5D.

 

[Tuna]

Try to think of criticism you get in this thread as less of a debate. If someone who looks at your map while they're playing the game asks themselves these same questions, you aren't going to get a chance to explain things to them. The only thing you can actually do is make your maps look the best they can so that the player doesn't have to ask these questions to begin with.

As for my own criticism, here's what I think:

Paths are formed by people who constantly take the same routes in their travels. Because this is a town, you can expect the paths to be well-established, either because they were made that way when the town was built, or because of the inhabitants' lifestyles. As a result of this, I would expect the paths to be much more well-established than they currently are. It's totally fine to let that path stretch from the very top of the map to the very bottom. While it's a good idea break up and vary your paths in nature, a well-established town has a sense of uniformity expected of it. Try to straighten out your paths, and go ahead and extend them to all of the different houses. Your map will probably look much better if you do.

You might also want to ditch the picket fence. This is moreso intended to frame a person's yard than an entire town. It has no defensive value to protect a town with, and it ultimately just looks a bit silly. I won't lie, I used to do the same thing to border my towns. Try to experiment with the elevation autotile, the one that makes the little mountain-type things. I've found that towns bordered by autotiles look much nicer, unless it's a city surrounded by a legitimately imposing wall.

It would also be a good idea to vary your buildings a bit. Unfortunately, you need to be extremely creative to pull off some unique structures using RTP. For this reason, it's a good idea to bring in some outside tilesets. I'm a big fan of Inquisitor's sets, personally.

I know you disagreed with Raven, but outside storage has always been a bit of a staple of the RPG industry. It can look nice if you do it right, and it's just something that people are used to seeing.

And of course, it's always a good idea to include as much nature as you can pack in without making your town look like a forest. Trees and flowers are always an easy way to fill a town with more color.

Keep at it, and don't be afraid to ask for more advice!

 

[Tuna]

I suppose that if I truly want to get better I have to get past the assumption that nothing can look beautiful in 2.5D.

You can create some truly beautiful things in 2.5D. Hell, I've seen some amazing maps rendered in 2.5D purely from the RMXP built-in RTP. In addition to making beautiful tiles by fully utilizing all 4 layers, your maps can look 10x more beautiful if you can effectively utilize things like screen tinting, weather effects, passing clouds, birds, etc. If you're looking for some inspiration of what can be done with the bare essentials, maybe this will help you out.

 

[Jason]

Well I'm not actually working on a particular game at the moment, I'm just doing some maps because I can... so yeah, here's a not-so-desert-but-made-with-desert-tiles map

I should probably post a version without the fog or screen colour change, but meh, I'll see what you guys think

 

[Tuna]

I love it! Great job with the fog and screen tint. The footprints are a really nice touch, too. This has "cutscene" written all over it. Would you mind sending that water autotile my way? It's absolutely beautiful and it's not in my possession. That is a problem.

 

[Jason]

Yeah sure, here you go lol

 

[ShadowMainZERO]

Try to think of criticism you get in this thread as less of a debate. If someone who looks at your map while they're playing the game asks themselves these same questions, you aren't going to get a chance to explain things to them. The only thing you can actually do is make your maps look the best they can so that the player doesn't have to ask these questions to begin with.

I suppose you're right. However, the lake thing is explained in game...

Paths are formed by people who constantly take the same routes in their travels. Because this is a town, you can expect the paths to be well-established, either because they were made that way when the town was built, or because of the inhabitants' lifestyles. As a result of this, I would expect the paths to be much more well-established than they currently are. It's totally fine to let that path stretch from the very top of the map to the very bottom. While it's a good idea break up and vary your paths in nature, a well-established town has a sense of uniformity expected of it. Try to straighten out your paths, and go ahead and extend them to all of the different houses. Your map will probably look much better if you do.

First my paths are too straight now they aren't straight enough. Okay. I'll change it.

You might also want to ditch the picket fence. This is moreso intended to frame a person's yard than an entire town. It has no defensive value to protect a town with, and it ultimately just looks a bit silly. I won't lie, I used to do the same thing to border my towns. Try to experiment with the elevation autotile, the one that makes the little mountain-type things. I've found that towns bordered by autotiles look much nicer, unless it's a city surrounded by a legitimately imposing wall.

I was originally intending it to be visible on the world map (which is the exact same scale as town maps) so the players could easily locate a town. However, since I intend to use a map to the world, I suppose it won't be needed. It would probably make sense to get a wall tile to use since the town has been attacked by monsters enough to where everyone can fight reasonably well.

It would also be a good idea to vary your buildings a bit. Unfortunately, you need to be extremely creative to pull off some unique structures using RTP. For this reason, it's a good idea to bring in some outside tilesets. I'm a big fan of Inquisitor's sets, personally.

Yeah, that's one thing I always hated about my village but had no clear way of fixing it other than use a new tileset. I'll probably look into the one you pointed out and just look around in general.

I know you disagreed with Raven, but outside storage has always been a bit of a staple of the RPG industry. It can look nice if you do it right, and it's just something that people are used to seeing.

Unless I've been missing things recently, a lot of RPGs (especially modern ones) have most of their stuff inside. I don't recall seeing shopkeepers keeping their wares outside in FFX or Chrono Trigger.

And of course, it's always a good idea to include as much nature as you can pack in without making your town look like a forest. Trees and flowers are always an easy way to fill a town with more color.

Okay.

This isn't really the right place to ask but when I get around to making my world map and dungeons and stuff, should I make my encounters random or preset?

 

[Tuna]

This isn't really the right place to ask but when I get around to making my world map and dungeons and stuff, should I make my encounters random or preset?

Since you mentioned you were trying to make your game more "modern", you may want to do away with random encounters. That's another staple of the old RPG industry.


I went ahead and zipped up those tilesets for you.


And here's something I made a while back that I think is a pretty decent example of making a more natural border around your town:

 

[ShadowMainZERO]

Thanks.

I'll mess around with stuff and get back to you when I think I've made a (hopefully) major improvement. Really, I need to make the prologue (and all of the chapters, of course, but especially the prologue) as good as possible. In an attempt to get the interest of someone who'd be willing to create custom sprites.

 

[ShadowMainZERO]

Um... did the guy who made the tileset give instructions on how the passages and priorities were supposed to be set up? Honestly it's confusing the hell out of me.

 

[Tuna]

I don't think so. You'll just have to mess around with it until you get it right.