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Curing Homosexuality?

Sic Semper Tyranosaurus":3b0yr6li said:
LightAndMagic":3b0yr6li said:
In all honesty, if there was a 'cure' for homsexuality as it could possibly be due to chromosomal or dna differencies, I would think about taking it. Why? It would make life so much easier.
This is very sad.  :cry: I think this demonstrates very well that someone would never make the choice to be gay. It's hard, and nobody in their right mind wants life to be that hard just to Stick it to the Man.

Not all of us feel that way. :smile: I find it very sad when gay people do. I, of course, didn't choose to be a lesbian, but I'm very glad that I am one, and would never ever want to be straight. (and no, I've never been hurt or anything by a man. :wink:)

Though it might help that I'm what's usually known as a lipstick lesbian. We don't get much discrimination compared to gay men...
 
Thank god.
I've been waiting for someone to say that.
I could kiss you Sithjester for various reasons right now - but I'm sure it's something one of us wouldn't enjoy XD

It doesn't sound credible when a straight person would refute that, but someone who happens to be homosexual?  Throws another wrench in that possible argument.  I can see why some would feel that way, but it's nice to see in black and white (or gray as my forum background is) text that it isn't universal.
 
First of you don't chose to be gay, and second it's not a disease. I believe that people should accept themselves as they are. I am currently in a situation, where my friend, since a long time ago, has recently told me he is gay and at first, I admit, I was shocked, but I've known him for so long that I know who he is and how he acts and being gay or not has changed him or our friendship. He still hasn't told his family and I sort of understand him. Society has forced some models into us since childhood of what's right and what's not and knowing that what you are is looked as bad by a big part of society is a harsh thing.

I personally agree with you, in part, Sixtyandaquarter, but I must differ on the reeducation thing, yes the might brainwash the person and try to change how they are, but wouldn't that make the person actually be a different person? I know it sounds complicated, but that's how I understand it.

About the evolution and end of humanity thing... I like to think of it like this, if so many people through the ages have been homosexual it can't really be a mistake or a disorder. I believe that if there are changes happening on how people act there should also be changes on how society works. I don't believe that in some point everyone would stop procreating children, but if something like that happens society must mold into their new way of life and as crude as it sounds, there might come a time when gay men donate their sperm to be impregnated on gay women and thus maintaining a balance.

Yes life would be easier for gay people if there was a cure, but I believe that society is the one that must learn to accept changes, thus making everyone's life a bit easier.

Sorry for the long wall of text, but I had to speak, in this case write, my mind.
 
Brainwashing does change someone.
That's the point, not to be the same person.  It's a closed mind ordering someone must conform to their way of thinking.  So yeah, you would totally be changing someone's core sexuality, and thus a huge part of themselves, by force.
It's scary to think people do that.
 
Faeroe":3funa5rj said:
don't they have pills for curing homosexuality?

just kidding, of course.


In high school, half the homosexuals I see weren't even gay at all; they just haven't been with a woman- they were confused.

But of course, real homosexuality cannot really be cured.  That's horrid; trying to change a person.  Sure you can cover it up, but you would be still attracted to men, would you not? 

If they believe themselves to be homosexual, doesn't that make them homosexual? I mean, I don't believe homosexuality to be a thing you're born with, but a mindset entirely.
 

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*sigh* I wish I could just delete posts by people who don't bother to even cursorily scan the thread before replying, but I guess that would be a little draconian.  Not that the brilliant insight, wit, and charm isn't a gift to us all, but sometimes it's nice to know you people are listening to eachother before firing one off.
 
I won't go into homosexuality being good or bad, because that's not what this topic is about.
About this "cure"
As it has already been said, to cure something it must be considered a disease, which homosexuality isn't.
You can make someone stop having sex with the same gender, and maybe even think about it, as you can have someone stop eating if you brainwash him enough.
You can stop attraction the same way, but the problem is why should anyone do it?
I don't see anyone trying to cure blacks, or jews.
the "cured" homosexuals say that they're happy because now they have happy lives, whick I frankly doubt. they say they were unhappy before the cure, I think that's true, but because their own conflict was in a big part originated because society didn't accept them.
If society would accept homosexuals as they are, then they wouldn't be unhappy being one, and wouldn't need to be cured.
So to me it's society the one who needs to be "cured", and not gay people.
 
"Can prayer or the Bible cure you?"

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but ...

Short answer is: No.  If we think that, we have been playing too many RPGs.  Scriptures and prayers are not spells.  And anyone thinking that homosexuality is a disease, doesn't understand the complexity of the issue.

Long answer:  No, but it can help, if we want it to.  We are free willed creatures.  Unlike animals that can be tricked into certain behaviors based on their environment, we do not run on instinct.  We think.  So how does that rationalize with a person choosing to be gay?  Well, a gay person may have a genetic leaning toward those feelings.  However, genes are not the modern equivalent to "Fate."  A person still has a choice to do or not to do an action.  Just as a person who is genetically predisposed to being strong can resist lifting every heavy object in sight and is capable of being gentle.  Gays can be considered free willed agents who are capable of choice.  Can they choose not to be gay as in who they are attracted to?  May be not.  Some can and some can't.  That may just be ingrained in their emotional makeup too deeply.  Can they choose not to be homosexual as in actually having sex with people of the same gender?  Yes, this is an action that everyone has control over.  If you can pick who you are going to sleep with and who you aren't, then you have the power of choice.

Now, how does the Bible help?  First, it reassures us that lifestyles and patterns of thinking can be changed -- including homosexuality. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) But, of course, it is because we choose to let it help.  It is powerless, if we refuse to follow its guidance.  If we say, "I can't change" or say that we'll try it but don't make any of the changes, that's refusing because we've already made up our mind or we aren't really trying.  We may feel like we don't have a choice due to the seemingly ever presence of the feelings but it is we ourselves that are dwelling on the thoughts.  We can choose not to thinking along those lines with practice and effort.

If you want to try it, the recommendations the Bible makes are to separate yourself from any homosexual influences. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)  So you don't associate with your gay friends and lovers as much as possible.  Cut them off, if possible.  (Don't be mean to them.  You can kindly let them know that this is what you are trying to do and then don't make effort to be around them anymore and try to make decisions that would reduce contact with them.  This may even mean moving to get out of that environment.)  No clubs, romance novels or porn or anything else that raises your desires.  These only make it more difficult to distance yourself and will make you feel like it is impossible to change or, even worse, that you feel worthless.  You have to try to control your thoughts as difficult as it may be.  You literally are having an emotional/mental fight with yourself.  Truthfully, you may not succeed the first time out of the gate.  But the Bible kindly reminds us that we do make mistakes, we can succeed and to try again. (Proverbs 24:16; Isaiah 48:18)

As you are letting go of your old friends, you'll become lonely.  The Bible also tells us that being alone is not healthy either. ;) (Proverbs 18:1)  So find friends that also have a belief in the Bible and follow its standards as you are trying.  Associate with them.  Over time (a long time) your feelings will change.  There will be moments of frustration and loneliness.  But as you study the Bible, you feel that there is someone you can always turn to when everyone else doesn't understand the agony that you are going through. (Psalms 55:22)  Even just knowing that alone makes you feel better and stronger  -- not captive or trapped as you once felt.

However, this isn't a cure and it isn't for everyone because many will refuse to accept the Bible's standards.  But that's their choice.

Just my thoughts from my own experiences.
 
@redspark: I kind of wish you were completely right because you seem nice.

Humans have free will, but people forget that, while we believe that animals don't consider things as deeply as we do, (reasonably smart) animals have free will too. If you've ever had a pet cat or dog, you know what I mean. Beyond what you train them to do, they still choose what they do, even if it seems like they're just being lazy. A Cat might not think "I'm not getting in that bath so you can make me look like a drowned rat", it is most definetly thinking "Piss off, I hate water". On the note of training, you can trick a human into doing lots of things easily. Humans are, on the whole, quite unintelligent creatures and are very easy to control. You say humans don't act on instinct, but that really is wrong. Everything we do is based on instinct and the "training" we have recieved from the people around us.

  I can't agree with "you can choose to not be homosexual" rationalized with "you can control your actions". If someone is a homosexual, if you act against the urges or choose chastity, the urges will still be there. In truth, you are choosing to cause yourself a lot of grief.

  The bible, oh wow. I'm sorry but even when religion means well, it employs methods which are questionable at best. What the bible says there is "get the fuck away from the gays". I'll tell you, I grew up with no gay friends and no access to gay "culture". Yet I'm a flaming faggot. Christianity, while adept at controlling people seems to be only concerned with having people live their recommended life, rather than putting the happiness and health of their followers above anything else. The bibles suggestion that you find other biblical people remids me of a saying I hear quite a bit; "that which posseses your time will inevitably control your mind". Religions as a whole employ this tactic, and that advice is a lame attempt at that. I would not suggest you take any advice from religion as a rule, as it's unlikely to do you much good (unless it's that rare gem that really is good advice, of course).

tl;dr: choice has nothing to do with it, religion is not a cure and I don't see it helping anything but itself.
 

Rows

Member

silver wind":1lp0lp2n said:
I know I might sound 'square', but I'm a religious person.
I don't think one should date someone because of physical attraction ALONE.
Let's put it this way( boy, am I gonna get stoned for this), how many white and 'colorful' couples are there? virtually none, right? don't black men find white women attractive..? their body is similar to the 'colorful' girls, ain't it? yet they don't DO anything about it.
a stigma prevents this kind of relationship. (and the world goes on just fine. NOTE- I do not mean mixed couples are bad, just the the world won't collapse if they won't exist. that my opinion about gay couples too. instead of gay couple, we'll have a NORMAL FAMILY- is it a bad thing these days??)
in a similar way, stigma against Gay people should stop homosexuality almost completely. that is, if goody-good people wouldn't keep protecting them like they're the society's pride and joy.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
silver wind":1lp0lp2n said:
several points the above poster should consider:
1. homosexual couple can't have kids. if everyone were gay, humanity would extinct.
  does that sound "normal"?
2. what is "love"? do you believe in 'love at first sight'?
  I believe we can control who we love. meaning, people choose to be gay.
  No,it is not a disease - gay people claim they can't control it, cause they don't
  want to. they don't think it's a bad thing.
most of the time, people fall in love AFTER they know each other some time-  first they  'test' their partner- his looks, his beliefs, his character, his religion, prob. his sex too - and  if they like them all, they allow them self to fall in love. so what about gay people- this process doesn't exist for them? why do they let them self love their own sex? .. unless they want to.
yeah, sometimes 'love is blind', like with women loving the husband that beats them.
however, they have sub-conscious reason to love that kind of people, and it can be "cured". same goes for homosexuality.


BAHHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!


silver wind":1lp0lp2n said:
"Normality is subjective and ultimately means nothing."
    normality is the majority's opinion. I wonder what you think about democracy.
    it is too based on the idea of majority, you know. sometimes-oh noes- majority prevents
    some people from what they want.
    it does matter to be 'normal'. ask someone who doesn't feel normal- a crippled man, etc.
    no getting weird looks on the street, not feeling excommunicated.

besides, I could ask the opposite question- why shouldn't gay people (try to) be straight?
attraction? how long does it last? ask a married couple. ask them about the love that builds with the years. ask some old people, who married without seeing their mate before the wedding day. love, relations, is it all about attraction ..? is it all sex?
ask gay people that made a family, if it was so bad for them.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAABAAHAHAHAHAHAHA BAHAHAAHAHA!!!! *wipes tear from eye*

I bet this guy is the type that thinks if he's overexposed to gay people he'll start dancing to madonna and jacking off to richard simmons.

I dont mean  to actually make a post that isnt spam, but gay people/animals have been around since written history and possibly even farther back. Sodomites? A whole friggin city that packed fudge, we all know japan back in the edo period were gay, greece and rome? Gay. Egypt? Flaming? Catholic Priests (WHICH ARE CHRISTIAN) Gay.

You can run from gay, but you cant hide from gay. Yet, the same is true about stupidity. . and dear god I am trying to hide from it. If you think god hated gays so much, wouldnt he strike em down with lightning or something, most christians are such hypocrites I tell you. Go jack off to Jack Thompson, both of your arguments hold the same ground here.

Also, as much as I love stereotypes for it gives me epic lulz. Get your head out of the 1920's. THERE ARE, YES THERE ARE ALOT OF INTERRACIAL COUPLES. Infact, you cant stop people from fucking around. There are rarely any purebreds left in America as is. Look far back in a random stranger you see walking down the street's family tree and chances are you'll see another race in there. THIS HAPPENED EVEN BACK IN THE 1960's. There are no blacks on the internet though, so I cant provide any evidence. No women either.


Edit: Would I be gay if I told you that reading this thread gives me a boner from the lulz?
 
Thanks, Holly.  I have four cats and they are all independent thinkers.  That's for sure. ;)  I just have to close a door in the house to remind myself of that. :) However, they don't think on the same level we do.  Do they sit down and think: "Tomorrow, I'm going to eat, sleep and be lazy.  Or run around and chase a string because I think my "owner" will like that and give me some Pounce" ?  Probably not.  They think short term and instinct guides the long term such as reactions to changes of seasons and temperature.  Humans are not governed like that even though we do react to somethings reflexively, it isn't the same as instinct.  Humans will often catch on (not always) that you are pulling the wool over their eyes whereas an animal will keep doing the same thing over and over.

You are right.  You can trick humans but it is often with false reasoning or emotional manipulation so that they cave to their own wants.  But even still it is their choice.  They choose to give up the right to govern their own life and would rather let someone else tell them what to do.

I couldn't agree with you more about Religion.  But Religion and the Bible are two different things.  Let's face it.  The Bible says: "Do not murder."  How many wars, deaths and massacres have been started by or supported by religion?  Can you name any major wars that weren't?  Even Hitler had the support of the Church.  Yet, the Bible condemns all of that.  Religion has been the Bible's worst enemy by claiming to follow the Bible.  But they are two separate things.  However, as I said, it isn't something everyone like to read.

But you are wrong in that it can't help because it helped me.  Also, I did say that it takes time and it is a fight.  And it usually isn't a cure.  You may very well always have the instant attraction that you feel when you see another guy.  But the cravings are usually weaker than when you started studying and you can control them the longer you are away from the scene.  Basically, it helps you to cope if you want to change your lifestyle.  If you don't, that is your choice.  But the option is there. :)


PS:  The exact wording for the verse that you "paraphrased", says to separate yourself from the "unbelievers."  This is in reference to being close friends with anyone who does not share your beliefs -- not just gays.  Just as we would most likely not want to be friends with people who are liars because their twisted views may rub off on us, if we are trying to change our viewpoint it would be counter productive to stay around people who have the opposite view.
 
blah blah cat talk

Uh, I just said that.

Humans are not governed like that even though we do react to somethings reflexively, it isn't the same as instinct.

If a human does it, instinct is governing it in some way. Humans, regardless of how stuck up we are, are animals and despite the powers and intelligence we have, we act on instinct. It is those very instincts that drive us to succeed and progress, and they also ensured that the human racesurvived long enough to become the dominating force it has become.

Humans will often catch on (not always) that you are pulling the wool over their eyes whereas an animal will keep doing the same thing over and over.

Humans are easier to control than animals are because we can communicate directly.

it is often with false reasoning or emotional manipulation

You're missing out reinforcement there. They're the exact same methods used to control lab rats.

You can trick humans [...] But even still it is their choice.

It's not a choice if it was brought about through manipulation.

bible helped me blah
It helped you? If you still feel the wants and urges, what exactly has it helped? You will always feel them, it's who you are. Ignoring them and wishing they would go away may seem like it's helped you now but I've seen where it gets people, and it's not pretty. They will always be there, they will never go away. All the time you spend telling yourself that it is wrong and bad and the like and trying to convince yourself that the menstrual path is much more appealing is really just time spent on pointless self-destructive thought processes that inevitably surface as something else the bible can't help you with either. Good luck patching together a real problem in thirty years.

picking at my paraphrase
I applied the phrase to this situation. Replace the subject of the sentence with any other related issue and it's still right. It's also horribly offensive to liken gays to liars, citing reasons like "twisted views".
 
Well, Holly, since you have a habit of taking words out of context and then over dramatizing them so that you can ignore someone else's viewpoint, there is no sense in speaking with you.  This isn't a discussion but simply you lashing out.  I offered an explanation to the question.  That is all.
 

Rows

Member

Damn gays raped my buttz. I am not able to even look at gays without vomiting because when I do I think I am going to catch their disease. I hate gays and I want them to be straight even if it has nothing to do with me. I also hate blacks, asians, hispanics, sand ni.. IRAQI's, and any other person who isnt aryan because they're so different. Its in the bible, every one in the bible was white and straight like the good lord intended. Diversity shouldnt exist in life. So you fudge packers shouldnt get married, hold hands, enjoy yourselves, or even exist. Why? I am secretly in the closet, and I have some kinda misconception that if you look at me for too long you'll rape my ass. God died for our sins, yet he didnt die for your sins. There shouldnt be any interracial relationships because even though whites are themselves interracial, whites are pure. Everyone should stay pure. BIBLE, JESUS, GOD!

1. Sexist.
2. Homophobic.
3. ????
4. Profit!!!!

http://www.boingboing.net/images/pedalo-lg.jpg[/img]
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redspark":34ony8ir said:
Well, Holly, since you have a habit of taking words out of context and then over dramatizing them so that you can ignore someone else's viewpoint, there is no sense in speaking with you.  This isn't a discussion but simply you lashing out.  I offered an explanation to the question.  That is all.

I didn't ignore your view, I questioned it. Honestly, you should really expect that in here. About lashing out, drama, etc., I disagree. You've interpreted it as an attack and gotten upset, perhaps because I told you what you refuse to believe. Maybe if my posts were so bad, you should hand me a firm rebuttal instead of saying "you're wrong I'm not talking to you :pout:".

lol, butt.
 
Holly, 98% of what you wrote were statements -- not questions.  That tells me that you are not questioning but have already made your mind up.  The 2 questions that you did pose were answered.  That tells me that you didn't bother to read anything that I wrote except to find ways to argue.

Your repeated use of the word "blah" shows your disrespect for what I wrote.  Never did I quote you with a substituted derogatory word.  I did not paraphrase anything you said into something that wasn't written.  I attempted to form common ground with each of your major points.  All of which you backhandedly referred to as "blah".

And you can not say that I am not willing to see your point of view.  I have lived your point of view, Holly, for many years.  I became convince there was a better way to live life.  Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

An example of words out of context such as "the menstrual path is much more appealing" which I never stated nor would I refer to a woman as "the menstrual path".  Where I come from, that would be considered a derogatory and a highly prejudice statement towards women.  As well, to make the statement that I likened Gays to Liars was a complete twist of the sentence.  I stated, "if we are trying to change our viewpoint".  That is the context.  I did not make the comparison based on that both had twisted reasoning.  I made the comparison on the fact "it would be counter productive to stay around people who have the opposite view."

This is why I said there is no point in speaking to you.  You don't make an effort to listen -- just to insult.
 
You're getting awfully offended :x And you're right, I probably shouldn't use blah. I didn't mean holy shit you're boring me blah, I just wanted to minimize the quote. Sorry bout that :x Also disrespect to women and all that jazz.

When you say that it's counter-productive to stay around people simply because you want to change something about yourself, wouldn't that be quite difficult with society as it is? All types of people are everywhere, so wouldn't it be difficult to avoid things without drastically changing your lifestyle? You can't well distance yourself from liars and cheaters and the like, even if you wanted to.
 
Holly, I apologize for seeming offended or giving offense.  I treasure my values, I'm sure, just as much as you do yours, and that makes this topic difficult to speak about without stepping on toes.

You are right.  It would be impossible to avoid everyone who has a trait that you don't want to rub off on you.  In fact, how can you tell someone is someone you want to avoid until you get to know them?  So do we retreat into an isolated location locked away from the rest of the world? ;)  Well, that would be a little drastic and going against what else the Bible advocates -- that we need to do good toward all. (Galatians 6:10)  That would require us to come in contact with many who do not share our views.  You can't do good toward all without coming into contact with the "all" part. ;)

However, when the Bible is making reference to separating yourself, it is speaking about our close friends.  Those that we love dearly because these ones help to shape our values.  We listen to them when they give advice.  There is a well known expression where I am that if you want to know someone, get to know their friends.  So if we want to change our viewpoint, drastically, we have to change our friends.  This could be in a literal way by limiting contact with them and getting new ones or, if we have the fortitude, we can stick around in a limited way to convince them of our views so that they change too. ;)  This is a difficult line to walk but sometimes we have to try.  Afterall, they are our friends and we want what is best for them.  If we are convinced that the change is good for us, we'd also want to convince them too.  But sometimes we have to pack it in because they don't want to change and they have that right.  Most of the time, though, they will cut us off when we start making changes in our life.

At least, that has been my experience.  I've spoken with some of my old friends on occasions since but I don't have them as a part of my life anymore.  They chose to view things differently and told me point blank.  I still hope that they will change their mind and I still care about them but their choice doesn't change me from mine.  I have new friends that have helped me to not turn back.  If I had stuck with my old friends, it would be too easy to slip back into old habits.

I think from some of your prior statements that you were wondering what's the point of all of it, if you still have the feelings.  First, they aren't as strong as they once were.  They slowly fall off over time from a hunger to a whisper.  In my case, no they haven't left and no I'm still not attracted to women.  So, again, what is the point?  The point is that I feel better about myself because, from a study of the Bible, I believe I made the right choice.  I'm not saying that I saw the light and started back flipping Blue Brothers style down the isle. ;)  I'm just saying that it made sense to me and I wanted to make the changes.  Others don't see things the same way and that is their choice.  I have no problem with that.  I don't try to enforce my viewpoint on others.  I do recommend it but I don't hit people over the head with the Bible because they don't agree with me. :)  I respect their choice knowing that they have the right to make that decision.

Anyway, I just wanted to answer the question of was it some magical cure.  And no it isn't a "cure."  But it has helped me a lot to make changes.
 

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