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you'd let your kids go to school with Gary Suraci?

sixtyandaquarter;269414 said:
@Fafnir,
seriously? glue?
I spent my afternoons hanging out with chicks and playing dodgeball and manhunt. well, except for jr. high where i spent my days getting high, and highschool where i spent my days getting a GED in 4 weeks.

Let's not forget, in this case, they are high school students. if they don't know about alternate lifestyles, or sex changes, or things that would be grouped in with those, then there's something wrong there. and it's not with the principal.

It tasted mighty good in kindergarden. Although the rest of elementary was spent doing normal elementary school stuff.

But now that I notice that it's high school students, they have no reason not to be accepting of their teacher. I'm currently about to start my second year of highschool, and if my principal wanted to try the other side of the fence(not that I've ever actually talked to her before...), I wouldn't mind at all, and would be completely accepting. I don't hate people for sex changes or preferences or religions or race, I hate people for being who they are(not to imply that I hate everyone, it just sounded more cynical, and I like cynical).
 

Kraft

Sponsor

I am not saying I would hate people for what who they are, or if they are gay, (although they would become the topic of many a gossip for the next few years) I dont hate people for doing things to themselves like that, or believing what they will, I just disagree with them, thats all.

Kinda like most of you would disagree with me when I say my favorite colors are Orange and Purple ^_^
 
Kraft;269433 said:
(although they would become the topic of many a gossip for the next few years)

So what if (insert your beliefs system here) were the new public Taboo, and people started gossiping about you because of your beliefs?
 
Fafnir;269439 said:
So what if (insert your beliefs system here) were the new public Taboo, and people started gossiping about you because of your beliefs?

When you subscribe to the popular viewpoint you save yourself from having to be an individual and/or standing up for yourself. I'm not saying everyone who thinks along the lines of the majority are this way, I'm just saying that Kraft is.

EDIT: I figure I should probably add a little content to my post. I've got to ask, what's so immoral about the gender change? Other than the usual 'icky', all you've got is "God's Plan", right? And honestly, isn't it also you that's always preaching 'you can't understand god's plan' when something bad happens? Then how can you so accurately predict it here? Please get back to me, or really, don't. I said that so you'd maybe ask yourself and think about the topic at hand instead of just going with your gut reaction. Because yeah, if my best friend suddenly said 'Hell I feel like being a woman, I'm gonna go for the ol' surgery tomorrow', I'd be a little freaked out. But UNLIKE this, I would consider that maybe he has reasons for it! Reasons that maybe I should try to understand rather than condemn as 'weird'.
 

Kraft

Sponsor

I would also eventually get used to it, but yeah. Everyone would think it was weird at first.

Also, I have a link coming for you, as soon as I find it...

*placeholder for link for Andy*
 
buffalo;268925":2pbhsqp9 said:
why would this even cross your mind. why does this cross anybody's mind.

IMO, this is the best thing that anyone has said in this thread. It would be nice if some people can answer this question, because I'm sure that this will answer for not only this but a lot of other things in society.

Frankly, I think its just prejudice, plain and simple.

As for me, who cares. Kid got a sex change. I'll admit, it might be sort of weird...but I sure as hell won't be rendered unable to get an education while being in the same living space. ':|
 
Lene;269543 said:
IMO, this is the best thing that anyone has said in this thread. It would be nice if some people can answer this question, because I'm sure that this will answer for not only this but a lot of other things in society.

Frankly, I think its just prejudice, plain and simple.

As for me, who cares. Kid got a sex change. I'll admit, it might be sort of weird...but I sure as hell won't be rendered unable to get an education while being in the same living space. ':|


Erm, it was the principal that got the sex change, not a student
 
Kraft;269541 said:
I would also eventually get used to it, but yeah. Everyone would think it was weird at first.

Also, I have a link coming for you, as soon as I find it...

*placeholder for link for Andy*

So? A kid gets used to being bullied every day, does that make it right?
 
Kraft;269412 said:
Thank You!
And I would greatly appreciate it if you kept your opinions of me to yourself.
There is much I could say right now, but I will keep those things to myself.

That is what I think, and thats that.

You can think it all you want, but keep in mind that holding such severe, immoral, and unreasonable prejudice only makes you look like a bigot.
 
Kraft, I disagree with you in just about every way, but you're entirely right when you say that you have every right to your opinions, just like everybody else.

However, that right is conditional on people examining and scrutinising their own beliefs. If you don't set aside the time to really think clearly about what you consider normal, right, dangerous, etc, and to listen to why other people hold different beliefs, then you forfeit the right to independent thought. There's no point in just saying "That's closed-minded"; you've got to explain why. That goes for everyone. Don't arbitrarily assert your morals onto other people.

For instance, how far do you connect morality with your own ideas of what's 'gross'. Fair enough to find gay sex off-putting, but that has nothing to do with whether you think it's right or wrong. For instance, the idea of transexuality plain freaks me out. It bring bad images to mind. However, I find it easy to detatch and recognise that transexuality itself isn't inherantly wrong or disgusting - it's my reaction to it which has those characteristics. The same thing goes for all ethics. If I'm watching the news and I hear a story about some man who's raped, tortured and killed a schoolgirl, then my reaction is that I want to kill that man, I want him to suffer. That's my animal response. But at the same time I have to fight to keep my moral beliefs in place; that I don't believe in punsihment for it's own sake, and that desire for suffering is always negative. So if I had the choice about what to do with them, I wouldn't do the first thing that popped into my head, because I can use a logical process to follow through on my moral convictions and find a better option.

So fine, be disgusted by it. But examine that feeling, and see if it's just a gut reaction and not a justified moral belief. My moral basis is entirely based off the idea that suffering and the desire for suffering is wrong. I can't justify that, it's what justifies the rest of my morality. Do really, truely, believe that transexuality is evil, that way that I believe that the inflicting of suffering is evil? Or are you going to try and justify it from some other moral basis? I think that would be very difficult, unless you're going to appeal to your religion...
 

Kraft

Sponsor

Andy6000;269446 said:
When you subscribe to the popular viewpoint you save yourself from having to be an individual and/or standing up for yourself. I'm not saying everyone who thinks along the lines of the majority are this way, I'm just saying that Kraft is.

EDIT: I figure I should probably add a little content to my post. I've got to ask, what's so immoral about the gender change? Other than the usual 'icky', all you've got is "God's Plan", right? And honestly, isn't it also you that's always preaching 'you can't understand god's plan' when something bad happens? Then how can you so accurately predict it here? Please get back to me, or really, don't. I said that so you'd maybe ask yourself and think about the topic at hand instead of just going with your gut reaction. Because yeah, if my best friend suddenly said 'Hell I feel like being a woman, I'm gonna go for the ol' surgery tomorrow', I'd be a little freaked out. But UNLIKE this, I would consider that maybe he has reasons for it! Reasons that maybe I should try to understand rather than condemn as 'weird'.

Here is your link you wanted Andy, sorry for the delay, I was out of town all day.
Click Here!
I know it looks a little... long, but please read the whole thing ^_^
And yes, that is what I believe in.

Diedrupo;269570 said:
You can think it all you want, but keep in mind that holding such severe, immoral, and unreasonable prejudice only makes you look like a bigot.

A bigot? Hmm... never heard that one before, although I can guess what it means...
And I am not holding severe... unreasonable... etc... against anyone. I am just saying that if I was a parent, I would probably be a little concerned about someone like that.

I dont think gay people are bad, or evil, etc... I just kinda... disapprove of it.
That is how I have grown up all of my life, and I do agree 100% with that.

~Kraft
 
Kraft;269854 said:
Here is your link you wanted Andy, sorry for the delay, I was out of town all day.
Click Here!
I know it looks a little... long, but please read the whole thing ^_^
And yes, that is what I believe in.

~Kraft

I'm sorry, I stopped reading once I reached this part, "Every Latter-day Saint knows...[continued]"

EDIT: This is an insult, I have no grounds to be criticizing his religious beliefs because they require faith, and if he has faith in them (no matter how silly I might think they are), that's his call, and his 'justification' for his reasoning. It's perfectly logical for him. I just didn't feel like arguing the same thing I have thousands of times, so I felt like taking the opening for a cheap shot. No I am not above that, because it's fun and I figured he'd do something silly back. I'm not making another post because it would further my negativity of having no post value. (8/31 1:39 PM Pacific Time)
 
Okay - I read that article Kraft linked two - twice.
Honestly, there's nothing there that seems anywhere close to persuasive. For one, it's written horribly if the reader isn't of the same mind, so I got distracted reading it three times the first time - and realized, wait something annoyed me here.

Secondly, what's the point? The article spends more time talking about lust from a Man to a Woman being a sin then it does spend same sex - or sex change topics to be truthful.

Once it goes into Gods gift of Agency and the conditions for morality limiting our freedom I've lost all desire to even see the point.
Morality limits freedom? I know I've got to be missing something, because too me morality always issued the force of freedom.

EDIT: if this comes out snippy it's because i just sprayed windex in my eye accidentally while typing this and watned to finish typing it before i go yell a curse and go stomping around angrily looking for something to detour my anger with.
 
You won't discuss an issue seriously with someone just because they belong to a particular group, Andy? Come on, you can do better than that.

The article was interesting later on, but the Gospel Doctrines part was weak, I thought. What it said did not actually follow from the quotes it gave. Particularly this:
"What we call gender was an essential characteristic of our existence prior to our birth"
If that is supposed to imply that we are born with a gender which we have to accept, then it is not justified. The quotes it gave say that we are "Made in God's image" and that "God created us male and female". Ok, so the human race has males and females. And we are made in God's image. That doesn't mean that each person is given a gender before they are born which it is a sin to try and change.

Kraft, if you disapprove, you have to justify yourself. If you can't justify your opinions, regardless of whether people agree with you, then you don't have the right to hold them. If you disapprove, why? If you can't tell me why, then you don't have the right to disaprove. You don't have to persuade me, but you have to show how you are persuaded.
 

Kraft

Sponsor

I guess I shouldnt of used the word "Disgusting" a few posts back...

Okay, I disagree with why people should be gay/lesbian because yes, as I am sure you have noticed, I am Mormon and I have been since I was born. That is what I have believed ever since I first learned about people being gay. (gay? what the heck is wrong with them?)

I can understand why people would do it... but still, I always get a feeling that it is utterly wrong every time I hear about someone being gay.

I dont personally know anyone who is like that (I live in a small town) I am sure if I did, I would either be more likely to understand how they feel about it, and why they are like that, or either disagree even more. (depending on the person)

Obviously you didnt care for the article that much, and while that was not the only one I could find (I picked and read the first one of a bunch of them) and I am sure that some others could of explained it a bit more, but hey, that was my mistake. ^_^

I am sorely wishing that I had not used the word disgusting, that was a poor choice of words on my part.


I think that Gay/lesbian people are just normal people, just with different beliefs. I think that being gay is... different, yes, but I dont think I would ever hate someone just for being gay.

I would feel a little held back and cautious if I knew that someone was gay, but not avoid them because of it.

I would like to stop with this conversation, it seems to me that no one cares too much about what I think, and no one can just accept what I believe and move on. Also because it seems like all you guys are waiting for me to post and then pick apart my posts and insult everything that I say.

As I am sure you have noticed, I am not the best arguer (which is why I rarely post in the symposium) I am not sure why I decided to post here... Stupid of me to get involved in something where everyone seems to be against me.

So, thank you for reading, I would appreciate it if you guys dont now hate me for my beliefs, just because they differ from yours.

Thanks!

~Kraft
 
sixtyandaquarter;269962 said:
Once it goes into Gods gift of Agency and the conditions for morality limiting our freedom I've lost all desire to even see the point.
Morality limits freedom? I know I've got to be missing something, because too me morality always issued the force of freedom.
There are two ways to look at it, limitation, or safe guarding.
We as mormons are advised to avoid things such as sex before marriage, drugs, alcohol, and such.
You can look at it as limitation, but the way it is meant to be is to protect. Almost anything we are advised not to do can be extremely addicting. When you are heavily addicted you then give up your agency to that addiction.
Although, this is extremely offtopic.
As a said before gary/whatever may be a good person. I'd just meet him before I sent my kids to school with him... her.
 
I think that Gay/lesbian people are just normal people, just with different beliefs.
I dont think that anybody is gay because of 'beliefs', Im pretty sure in all cases its because their brain chemistry has gone a bit wonky and their hormone amounts are a bit stuffed up.

I dont have the slightest problem with the sex change. Seriously, what negative impact do they have on me? none. The only difference would be the vagina. I dont really care, and i dont have a reason to either.

I personally think that homosexuality is fine. If i think about guys having sex, or even kissing, or just being attracted to another guy, i think, ew. The idea of that grosses me out, the same way that girls doing stuff together turns me on (in a big way). But it doesnt extend to the degree that i dislike the person that is gay, in fact if i had a gay friend i wouldnt give the slightest of their sexual orientation so long as they didnt tell me about it.

Somebody (sixty i think) said earlier about a documentary about kids who are born thinking they are one sex but physically they are another. I saw something like this too, dont know if its the same one cause it wasnt on discovery but it was basically about kids who thought they were the opposite sex to what they were. Like somethings messed up and their body grew wrong. One mom was saying that her daughter one time at school had attacked the teacher because the teacher was insisting that they were, in fact, a girl. Teacher said 'good girl', child said 'Im a boy', 'no youre a girl', 'Dont call me a girl!' 'but you are one' *attack*.

I dont in any way condemn sex changes or homosexuality, I just dont really want to hear about it. (except for lesbians. HOT).
 
Kraft;270190 said:
I guess I shouldnt of used the word "Disgusting" a few posts back...

Okay, I disagree with why people should be gay/lesbian because yes, as I am sure you have noticed, I am Mormon and I have been since I was born. That is what I have believed ever since I first learned about people being gay. (gay? what the heck is wrong with them?)

I think the problem is that you are young. A lot of people who grow up religious tend to hold prejudicial beliefs, and then they get older, go to college, experience the real world more, and they gradually become more openminded and no longer hold the prejudicial beliefs that the few fanatics in the religion preach.

You just have to keep in mind that just because a religion advocates something does not make it right or just. A few years ago, Mormons did not allow black people to become pastors. You think about that today and that is obviously such an incredibly racist and pure evil thing that you have to wonder why they felt that way back then. Gay people are normal people just like you and me and one day you will understand that, regardless of your religion.
 

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