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White Privilege

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Kaoii

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rmxp_dev":1pmv4qsa said:
Sorry but I doubt you've read those studies, especially the Educational gaps between Whites and Blacks. Go read em.

Here's another:

http://www.weac.org/News/2000-01/jan01/rethink.htm

That's Wisconsin - not the entire United States of America. Show me how Congress has set up systems to block federal funding of black-based school districts.

Here are some of my own statistics that might interest you:
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/usa/racewar.htm

edit:
rmxp_dev":1pmv4qsa said:

This document shows that Asian families in Illinois (at the time this was published, it is NOT a recent study!) make over 6,000$ on average per year more than whites. Does this not contradict some of your previous statements?
 
What does Violence statistics have to do with the Disparities in Educational funding between Whites and Blacks?

You've asked for sources. I've given them to you. I think the next step is for you to either admit you were wrong, or to stay silent.
 

Kaoii

Member

rmxp_dev":29ul46ou said:
You've asked for sources. I've given them to you.

I beg to differ. You still have yet to show me how the United States Congress has effectively blocked funding of school districts that are dominantly African-American to create job opportunities for whites. You claimed earlier this was a fact, why will you not show substance for it?

You've proven with studies (though some are not recent) that at least on many local levels, there remains racial disparity. You have not furthered your other agenda, however, which is the main one I've been asking for.
 
Why then is Public School funding not equal to all districts regardless of income level?

It is evident you know little of how education is funded in the first place.  I'll give you a clue, the people in congress have little to do with it.  Yes there are federal assistance programs such as title one status for schools, but the dollars poured in from that level are minuscule.  Think about 5% of the budget and those programs target inner city public systems in the first place.  Education funding is left up to the states as far as budgeting is concerned.  Some states put the dole totally on the state level, some dole out from the county level, and some dole out on the local level.  In order to tell you only need to see where and how your school committee operates.  You have one for your city or town it is local, and its county level it is at the county level.  They set the larger portion of the budget in cooperation with the people setting the municipal budget (town hall, city hall, or county seat).  At least eighty percent of any school budget will come from local sources: property tax, sales tax proportion, or income tax proportion the latter two decided oftentimes by mathematical formulas based on census data.  The state often times has a grant system in place meant to encourage what  they consider good administrative and educational practice.  They watchdog this through the state department of education.

The Problems

Poor areas start with a smaller pie and have a tendency to have poor leadership with fucked up priorities.  They then fuck everything up so the state won't trust them with grants because they have no clue how to implement the changes for the quid pro quo.  Then the money they do have they squander, because well... they are incompetent.  Then there is the fact that some poor communities aren't simply poor but are clutched by the sicknesses of institutionalized poverty: the second and third generation welfare cases, gangs, drugs, and broken homes.  Its a hard road up when the street keeps telling you its hopeless and mom or dad are too busy being a teenager to raise you.  wealthy towns don't have these problem, but sometimes they will even short change public ed because they don't put there kids in that system.  I can think of a few town in my state that do just that.  Yet all of these issues existed before slavery and exist in even the most homogenized of countries.  It has more to do with the fact that people aren't equal on the individual level, and so in every pie fight there are winners and losers.  As the saying goes victory has a thousand father's, but failure is an orphan.

Most of you are Whites, and have argued ferociously against this, demanding "mythical evidence".

Now we are going into argumentum ad hominem territory their, Tamerlane.  That's a fallacy, too.  The makeup of my character or personality has nothing to do with this argument so leave it out like a person of character should.

I'm not an Educator so I would not know if such disparities exist today.

I am and I work in an inner city district with a large non white population.  Disparity exists but it is not really so much along racial lines as it is among the ability to compete for the pie and the priorities of the locality.  For example the state sets a minimum shelf for per pupil spending.  If the local district goes below that shelf for whatever other spending priorities then the state will withdraw some of its matching funds as a punishment.  Some cities and towns short change their districts because they'd rather spend it elsewhere.

I think your mistake here is assuming this sixty five percent is united and homogenous.  That is not the case.  Democratic decisions are not the result of a rational actor as you are positing.  It is the end result of organizational infighting and compromise.  We elect individuals who take their personal issues, their constituents issues, and their party's issues to the hill for a battle royale.  What comes out is often a jabberwocky of compromise and patronage.  There's more to it than white men in smoky rooms figuring out a new scheme to short change the mongrel races.  It's really more stupid and mundane than that.
 
Kaoii":3comeef5 said:
rmxp_dev":3comeef5 said:
You've asked for sources. I've given them to you.

I beg to differ. You still have yet to show me how the United States Congress has effectively blocked funding of school districts that are dominantly African-American to create job opportunities for whites. You claimed earlier this was a fact, why will you not show substance for it?

Did you even read the reports?


Racial disparities persist in income, health, and education. For example:
• The median net worth of white households—$111,750—is 6 times that of
households of color—$18,160.5
• Approximately 26 percent of working age Blacks and 30 percent of working age
Latinos are uninsured, compared to 12 percent of whites. Nearly 52 percent of
non-citizen Latinos are unemployed.6
• Less than a quarter of American Indians—but 82 percent of whites—graduate from
high school. Forty-three percent of Black males graduate.7
Racial gaps are widening in Illinois. For example:
• Between 1980 and 2005, the hourly wage gap in Illinois between white and Latino
workers widened by 21 percent; the gap between whites and Blacks widened by
143 percent.8
• Between 2005 and 2006, the health insurance coverage gap between Blacks and
whites grew by 17 percent.
And on some measures, Illinois ranks worst in the country.
• Illinois has the most inequitable school-funding system in the nation—per pupil
spending differences between districts are as high as $19,000.9
• Illinois ranks worst in Medicaid funding per client—with the highest gap between
Medicaid coverage (the amount paid by the Illinois Medicaid system) and individual
costs (the total cost for the service)
 
Sophist":2la8461a said:
Why then is Public School funding not equal to all districts regardless of income level?

It is evident you know little of how education is funded in the first place.  I'll give you a clue, the people in congress have little to do with it.  Yes there are federal assistance programs such as title one status for schools, but the dollars poured in from that level are minuscule.  Think about 5% of the budget and those programs target inner city public systems in the first place.  Education funding is left up to the states as far as budgeting is concerned.  Some states put the dole totally on the state level, some dole out from the county level, and some dole out on the local level.  In order to tell you only need to see where and how your school committee operates.  You have one for your city or town it is local, and its county level it is at the county level.  They set the larger portion of the budget in cooperation with the people setting the municipal budget (town hall, city hall, or county seat).  At least eighty percent of any school budget will come from local sources: property tax, sales tax proportion, or income tax proportion the latter two decided oftentimes by mathematical formulas based on census data.  The state often times has a grant system in place meant to encourage what  they consider good administrative and educational practice.  They watchdog this through the state department of education.

The Problems

Poor areas start with a smaller pie and have a tendency to have poor leadership with fucked up priorities.  They then fuck everything up so the state won't trust them with grants because they have no clue how to implement the changes for the quid pro quo.  Then the money they do have they squander, because well... they are incompetent.  Then there is the fact that some poor communities aren't simply poor but are clutched by the sicknesses of institutionalized poverty: the second and third generation welfare cases, gangs, drugs, and broken homes.  Its a hard road up when the street keeps telling you its hopeless and mom or dad are too busy being a teenager to raise you.  wealthy towns don't have these problem, but sometimes they will even short change public ed because they don't put there kids in that system.  I can think of a few town in my state that do just that.  Yet all of these issues existed before slavery and exist in even the most homogenized of countries.  It has more to do with the fact that people aren't equal on the individual level, and so in every pie fight there are winners and losers.  As the saying goes victory has a thousand father's, but failure is an orphan.

Most of you are Whites, and have argued ferociously against this, demanding "mythical evidence".

Now we are going into argumentum ad hominem territory their, Tamerlane.  That's a fallacy, too.  The makeup of my character or personality has nothing to do with this argument so leave it out like a person of character should.

I'm not an Educator so I would not know if such disparities exist today.

I am and I work in an inner city district with a large non white population.  Disparity exists but it is not really so much along racial lines as it is among the ability to compete for the pie and the priorities of the locality.  For example the state sets a minimum shelf for per pupil spending.  If the local district goes below that shelf for whatever other spending priorities then the state will withdraw some of its matching funds as a punishment.  Some cities and towns short change their districts because they'd rather spend it elsewhere.

I think your mistake here is assuming this sixty five percent is united and homogenous.  That is not the case.  Democratic decisions are not the result of a rational actor as you are positing.  It is the end result of organizational infighting and compromise.  We elect individuals who take their personal issues, their constituents issues, and their party's issues to the hill for a battle royale.  What comes out is often a jabberwocky of compromise and patronage.  There's more to it than white men in smoky rooms figuring out a new scheme to short change the mongrel races.  It's really more stupid and mundane than that.

Ok, you're right. States allocate Educational funds, not the Federal Govnt. That does not alter the argument all.

I've given you studies that show this. For example, in the state of Illinois,there is a difference of 19,000 dollars per pupil. NINETEEN THOUSAND. Why this huge disparity? The State of Illinois is paying 19,000 per pupil MORE for White kids, than Black kids.

Is this equitable? Is this fair?
 
Rmxp_dev, you miss one large point.

You are assuming that there is ONLY a massive racial divide between whites and the racial minorities, and that this white majority is a massive, unified bloc completely dedicated to the destruction of nonwhites.

Do keep in mind that this 'unified white majority' you are speaking about is also divided on other lines:

Gay/straight
Masculine/feminine
Able bodied/disabled
Adult/child
Rich/poor
Christian/non-christian
Have children/don't have children
etc

Everything on the left of those binaries are also accepted cultural norms, the same way as "white/other races" are.  Everything on the right is "othered" by our society, and this united Caucasian army you like to dream up is split up many different ways by these OTHER forms of oppression.

I highly doubt that a white guy who is also gay, feminine, disabled, young, poor, non-christian, and not wanting children, will join up with the 'average white guy' in a march against racial minorities.
 
Kaoii":eof7z8xg said:
rmxp_dev":eof7z8xg said:
Did you even read the reports?

The long quote you posted is of Illinois - not the United States Congress.

When I said the US Congress, I did not mean in regards to Education. I fully know that States fund Education, not the Federal Govn't.  However, like I said, this doesn't change my argument at all.

Read the study in Illinois. A difference of 19,000 per pupil. That is a real disparity. White kids are getting much higher education than Black kids are.
 
Dissonance":3bvtqc7w said:
Rmxp_dev, you miss one large point.

You are assuming that there is ONLY a massive racial divide between whites and the racial minorities, and that this white majority is a massive, unified bloc completely dedicated to the destruction of nonwhites.

Do keep in mind that this 'unified white majority' you are speaking about is also divided on other lines:

Gay/straight
Masculine/feminine
Able bodied/disabled
Adult/child
Rich/poor
Christian/non-christian
Have children/don't have children
etc

Everything on the left of those binaries are also accepted cultural norms, the same way as "white/other races" are.  Everything on the right is "othered" by our society, and this united Caucasian army you like to dream up is split up many different ways by these OTHER forms of oppression.

I highly doubt that a white guy who is also gay, feminine, disabled, young, poor, non-christian, and not wanting children, will join up with the 'average white guy' in a march against racial minorities.

Not really. Let's take the example of Education in Illinois.

According to this study, White kids are receiving 19,000 more per pupil than black kids.

Does it matter if not every White kid will grow up to be Straight, Republicans? No. As long as you are White, you're going to get better education than Black kids. This disparity is along RACIAL lines, not gender, not gay or straight, atheist or Christian.
 
Black people happen to live in poorer areas of the country. There's no law saying that white people get more money than black people- it has to do with where they live. I went to a very good high school, and it was mostly whites. There were two of three black people that got the same exact education that I did.

It's not a lot, but it still shits all over the points I think you are trying to make. If more black people moved to my area, the school system wouldn't suddenly get worse just because they're black. Rather, it would simply be that there are black people moving to an area with a good school system. I know, it might be hard for you to comprehend the idea that people are in control of their own lives, but then again you seem to have a hard time comprehending some of America's other basic beliefs.

There in't a big conspiracy to make life hard for black people, it's just an unfortunate truth that a lot of black people live in poorer areas of the country.
 
rmxp_dev":2hsn98bm said:
Dissonance":2hsn98bm said:
Rmxp_dev, you miss one large point.

You are assuming that there is ONLY a massive racial divide between whites and the racial minorities, and that this white majority is a massive, unified bloc completely dedicated to the destruction of nonwhites.

Do keep in mind that this 'unified white majority' you are speaking about is also divided on other lines:

Gay/straight
Masculine/feminine
Able bodied/disabled
Adult/child
Rich/poor
Christian/non-christian
Have children/don't have children
etc

Everything on the left of those binaries are also accepted cultural norms, the same way as "white/other races" are.  Everything on the right is "othered" by our society, and this united Caucasian army you like to dream up is split up many different ways by these OTHER forms of oppression.

I highly doubt that a white guy who is also gay, feminine, disabled, young, poor, non-christian, and not wanting children, will join up with the 'average white guy' in a march against racial minorities.

Not really. Let's take the example of Education in Illinois.

According to this study, White kids are receiving 19,000 more per pupil than black kids.

Does it matter if not every White kid will grow up to be Straight, Republicans? No. As long as you are White, you're going to get better education than Black kids. This disparity is along RACIAL lines, not gender, not gay or straight, atheist or Christian.

Maybe so, but you can't say that this is DIRECTLY CAUSED by a white majority that is unified and acting deliberately to undermine minority education - I've already shown that the white majority is in fact NOT unified, and there are other disputes that get in the way of them moving as one unit.

And if you want proof that disputes like, say, between gays and straights exist, look at the Stonewall Riots, or the beating and murdering of openly gay people, or the current movements to ban gay marriages in various American states.

Hell, the gay version of blackface acting - the metrosexual, hip-swingin' man with a lisp and over-the-top feminist tastes - is still being actively perpetuated in our society's entertainment, just like blackface was earlier in our history.  What does that say about the status of the gay minority in our country as opposed to the status of the black minority?
 
Despain":1tbemp30 said:
Black people happen to live in poorer areas of the country. There's no law saying that white people get more money than black people- it has to do with where they live. I went to a very good high school, and it was mostly whites. There were two of three black people that got the same exact education that I did.

It's not a lot, but it still shits all over the points I think you are trying to make. There in't a big conspiracy to make life hard for black people, it's just an unfortunate truth that a lot of black people live in poorer areas of the country.

Personal stories have no relevance. I went to a very good highschool too. And I never saw a single black person. In fact, throughout my entire education years, I've only seen a few blacks in my University years. What does my personal story prove? Nothing.


Maybe so, but you can't say that this is DIRECTLY CAUSED by a white majority that is unified and acting deliberately to undermine minority education - I've already shown that the white majority is in fact NOT unified, and there are other disputes that get in the way of them moving as one unit.

These studies disgree with you. Some of these stories have determined that RACIAL bias is the cause for these disparities. It's very hard to prove Racial Bias, but does that mean Racial Bias does not exist? 

Just because White people are fragmented politically, does not mean there is no deliberate motive to undermine minorities. These statistics show there is a clear cut disparity. That is the evidence.

White Privilege gives Social, Political, Economic FREEDOM for White people. Minorities do not have the same degree of freedoms in this country.

Without educational equality, there can be no Economic Equality. Nor Healthcare Equality.

This is what I've been trying to say. White Privilege is created in a 1000 different ways by White Majority Rule such that, White People have the BEST opportunity to live the BEST lives in this country.
 
rmxp_dev, read my edited post. I went back and expanded on my point because I knew that you'd have a hard time understanding it.

Personal stories have no relevance.

They do when they serve as an example to a point that one is making.

It seems that you have a serious habit of totally missing the point. I don't know if this is intentional or if you're just really that bad at understanding people.
 
Read the study in Illinois. A difference of 19,000 per pupil. That is a real disparity. White kids are getting much higher education than Black kids are.

First its not a study its a legislative report card put out by the ACLU in Illinois.  It's purpose is to make you take out the pitchforks and punish the legislators not doing what the ACLU wants them to do.

Second it sounds like a bad statistic, because the state I work in the highest per pupil expenditure is around $9,000.  I have serious questions on how they arrived to their numbers.

Looks like a bad figure.  The footnote leads me to these guys who seem to be liberal advocacy group for how to spend our tax money.

http://www.ctbaonline.org

Here these same people put the average pps at ~5,000 and would like to see it at ~6,000

Clicky

Given the average number lord knows how that number was reached from the aclu's sensational pamphlet.  Methinks its another one of those Twain moments: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

BTW my state's average pps is around 7,000.  Just some context.  We are highly rated on most educational indicators except the achievement gap.
 
Despain":7b6b0sz4 said:
rmxp_dev, read my edited post. I went back and expanded on my point because I knew that you'd have a hard time understanding it.

Personal stories have no relevance.

They do when they serve as an example to a point that one is making.

It seems that you have a serious habit of totally missing the point. I don't know if this is intentional or if you're just really that bad at understanding people.


I totally understand what you're saying, and have shown you why personal experience has no relevance in this discussion. None. What is the relevance of your limited personal life experience if it is not compared with the millions of other life experiences?

All you've done is state that you were fortunate enough to have a good education. It has no relevance to this. An Illinois study that shows a disparity of 19,000 between White and Black children however is relevant.
 
rmxp_dev":17ve9267 said:
These studies disgree with you. Some of these stories have determined that RACIAL bias is the cause for these disparities. It's very hard to prove Racial Bias, but does that mean Racial Bias does not exist? 

These studies very clearly prove that SOMETHING is going on that is making racial minorities, on average, worse off than the white majority.  These studies do NOT definitively point to a united white bloc that is trampling nonwhites into the dust.  They identify the symptoms but not the cause.

The studies show that "bad shit is happening".  The jump between "bad shit is happening" and "bad shit is happening because of a deliberate white movement made up of all the whites in the nation" is one not made by the studies, but by you.

rmxp_dev":17ve9267 said:
Just because White people are fragmented politically, does not mean there is no deliberate motive to undermine minorities. These statistics show there is a clear cut disparity. That is the evidence.

You don't have a grasp of the situation if you think that disputes like gay/straight are political in nature.

rmxp_dev":17ve9267 said:
White Privilege gives Social, Political, Economic FREEDOM for White people. Minorities do not have the same degree of freedoms in this country.

This is true, but not for any of the reasons you've stated - It's also why I'm proud not to be american :P
 
rmxp_dev,

That stat didn't come from a study it came from an ACLU legislative report card.  It is a laughable stat for the reasons already outlined above.  It's validity is highly questionable given the average of where per pupil spending actually falls.  In short the source is likely bunk meant to be inflammatory.

So laughable in fact that I don't think it can be found on the originator's website anymore:

http://www.ctbaonline.org/
 
Sophist":2srn170k said:
rmxp_dev,

That stat didn't come from a study it came from an ACLU legislative report card.  It is a laughable stat for the reasons already outlined above.  It's validity is highly questionable given the average of where per pupil spending actually falls.  In short the source is likely bunk meant to be inflammatory.

So laughable in fact that I don't think it can be found on the originator's website anymore:

http://www.ctbaonline.org/


Are you now arguing these statistics are made up? fabricated?

These are all made up according to you? Where's the proof? Show me the REAL statistics in Illinois that support your CLAIM that ACLU's legislative report is made up.


Racial disparities persist in income, health, and education. For example:
• The median net worth of white households—$111,750—is 6 times that of
households of color—$18,160.5
• Approximately 26 percent of working age Blacks and 30 percent of working age
Latinos are uninsured, compared to 12 percent of whites. Nearly 52 percent of
non-citizen Latinos are unemployed.6
• Less than a quarter of American Indians—but 82 percent of whites—graduate from
high school. Forty-three percent of Black males graduate.7



I've given you many Links to various studies, and reports. ALL OF THEM support my argument. Are you also goign to say ALL those links are also false? Made up?
 
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