Vegetarianism: A new path

[Venetia]

I don't really care. Meat tastes good. Most vegetables taste like horse manure.


... Look, if they didn't want to be eaten, they wouldn't taste so good.

Spoiler: Painfully Obvious

I AM BEING FACETIOUS

Anyway, a little coup against the meat industry by simply avoiding meat does what? Squat. You're in the minority. You will not convert people to agree with you. Sorry. The meat industry will not shut down if several bleeding hearts buy protein pills instead of raw steak. It's fine if you have your 'morals' and want to uphold them, but it really won't do anything constructive.

If you really care about animals, try to find some way to mobilize people to speak out against cruelty. If you're too lazy/apathetic/busy to try to go to rallies or change legislation, do as Snuggles suggested: Buy from local markets. Find Organic meat which state "free range" on the label. Supporting businesses which do right is more effective than pulling out of the market entirely.

Spoiler: To Morons (If you're not a Moron then you're okay)

YES YES I KNOW.

"But Ven! If no one buys meat then the companies will change!"

Oh, oh DEAR! WHAT A BRILLIANT POINT LULLZ

What a magical fairy forest you live in. What's it like having a box over your head, while living in an underwater cave? Neat, I bet. I mean, everyone's so nice and agreeable there.

[You will not get people to stop eating meat so quit trying. That's like trying to convert a lifelong Baptist to Islam.]

But don't say you don't eat meat because humans aren't designed to. That's bullshit. We were hunters before we were gatherers. Predators are what evolve the cranial capacity to make decisions based on their surroundings. Also, go to the mirror and open your mouth. BAM! Canine teeth. It's not a question of our dietary needs. It's a question of ethical treatment. So quit being silly and argue the REAL topics .

 

[Olivia]

Sorry to burst your bubbles. but a new study has been found that plants may not have a immune system, but they can feel slight emotions such as sadness (droopy), happiness (refreshed), and even...that's right. Pain.

"East Lansing, MI - Researchers from Michigan State University discovered that plants have a rudimentary nerve structure which allows them to feel pain. David Blackford who heads the research team explained, "The nervous system is undeveloped, but it is there. This could be the evolutionary breakthrough that we've been looking for."

While a great research breakthrough for scientists, the discovery causes a dilemma for strict vegetarians who don't eat animal products because of concerns about animal safety. A group of vegetarians at the local Carrot Café restaurant shared their feelings.

"If a potato feels pain, I might as well eat a baby seal," said Carrie Selby of Lansing. "Or maybe, I'll try out that all-dirt diet I've heard so much about."

Jenna Chang from Okemos added, "I always thought I heard a tiny scream every time I pulled a carrot out of the ground at the community garden."

Meat lovers reported a much greater desire to devour a salad after hearing the news. "I knew it," exclaimed one carnivore, "those vegetarians act all high and mighty and they're just as big of killers as I am. Heck, even more so. Only one cow had to die to make my steak, but lots of plants were massacred to make that mixed green salad!"People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants sprang up concurrently with the announcement. "We've placed picketers at cornfields around the country. They grow these things so close together, the stalks barely have room to turn around and move," said PETP spokesperson William Wagner."We're recommending that our members focus on food items that don't feel pain like nerve damaged infants or Styrofoam," Wagner continued. "Here, have one of our 'Salad is Murder' T-shirts.""

Venetia: Hey Cassy, if you're going to quote someone, just indicate the source you got it from, don't bold it .
That's hard to read!

Reference:
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/08/plant_pain.html

 

[___]

Traditional activism is mostly obsolete in affluent countries.  The purpose of activism is to raise awareness, but thanks to the ease of spreading information on the internet you don't really need to go out and get in people's faces anymore.  As for the argument that talking about vegetarianism isn't going to change anybody's mind, I call that obviously erroneous since, you know, the vast majority of vegetarians didn't start out vegetarian.  I was pretty much in the "hurrr meat tastes good so I eat it and I don't care what you have to say so don't tell me about it lulz" crowd for... oh, 18 years or so.  I admit I'm a minority in that I didn't just dive into it because I saw some animal in some miserable situation or because I thought it would somehow revolutionize my health and well-being, I'm one of those types of people that research things, find out the facts, get both sides of the argument, and so on.  It took me months of reading, talking to both educated and lay people on both sides of the divide, and learning everything I could before I made the decision but I haven't looked back since.  I also admit that if I were in a survival situation where I didn't have access to the nutritional resources I currently have I would happily eat little bunny fu fu, bambi, and all their forest cousins as time permitted, and furthermore I have the skills to make that happen.  But as the situation is for me today, I have the option to chose something that I believe better for me and better for society at large and I'm equally happy to make the small sacrifice of cutting a handful of foods out of my diet. Nonetheless, someone had to provide a rational argument to me before I was able to make that change. 
As for the idea that one little person is not going to have any impact whatsoever, I also disagree on the basis that it's against everything that self-governance, free market economies, and basic civil liberty is founded on.  If one person can't make a difference, and therefore we should all just go along with the crowd and let other people make decisions for us, saving us the trouble of controversy and rational thought, what exactly is the point in voting, or choosing not to buy any product based on the actions of its producer, of the quality of the product itself, or our personal preference?  What do you suppose makes products or politics successful in the first place.  A political idea, a behavior, or a product doesn't just appear one day on the market at its capacity, nor does it similarly disappear through some magical overnight change in public opinion.  In terms of economics, your money is akin to a vote.  If you chose to buy something, you are voting to have more of that product and more of the producer's product line on the market.  If you chose not to, you are voting against.  The recording industry is suffering from this exact kind of social movement right now as a matter of fact.  Slowly but surely people are deciding that they're not the best people to be providing us with music and we're stopping giving them money, and they're dying because of it.  The few of us who were buying indie albums and going to concerts and downloading things off Napster way back in the late 90s didn't think we'd have much of an impact either, we were just doing what we wanted.  Lo and behold, a decade later a giant in the media industry stands to topple without anyone getting out on the street, throwing molotovs or burning down record stores to make it happen.
No, I say the moron is the person who says "feh, if I were to think about it I may find that objectionable, but not as much as I know I find objectionable the idea of not serving my every whim and impulse, la de de, de da, I cannot make a difference, therefore I am not responsible for my actions."

 

[Crystalgate]

I went to PlagiarismChecker.com and found that those so called "facts" ARE plagiarized! http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/0 ... bivores-2/

That accursed list is probably posted at hundreds of sites at this rate, often with some variation and maybe a commentary or two.

 

[syvkal]

First off I think cruelty to animals is horrible. I'm totally against animal testing, but I would never protest because that wouldn't get me anywhere, and I'm fine with using pre-animal-tested products because it's already been done, so that's no reason not to use it.

Now, I would turn Vegetarian, full 100% Vegetarian when meat stops tasting so good.
We're omnivores, we're meant to eat meat and plants. It's the natural food chain and the normal process of nature. Me may aswell force a lion to eat tofu if we're guna become vegies.

Animals aren't humans. They are beasts which exist for the purpose of consumption. The way they are treated doesn't matter.

^ This however I don't agree with. Animals may be as clever as we are, but express it in a different way. They may not feel the need to build houses and go to war, because they know they don't need to.
Dolphins for example, are just as clever or more clever than humans. There are cases of dolphins dragging people out to sea and leaving them there. And cases of dolphins raping people out at sea. That just shows there are animals just as mean/clever/twisted as humans.
And cows, if they were allowed to grow and roam free, they could grow up to 7 feet tall.

That kinda brings me onto another subject. Plants. We don't know whether plants have feelings or not. We may not be clever enough to understand plant emotions, or them communicating to us to stop us from boiling them.

Plants don't think as we (or other animals) do. If you tread on grass it wont react like stepping on a dog's tail or whatever.

^ We don't know that. And what would all the Vegetarians feel like if we suddenly discovered that plants had feelings too?

For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love
Pythagoras (6th century BC)

Pythagoras actually thought beans had souls. So shouldn't we not eat plants too?


And onto my last point. A bit stupid, but it's still true. Technically Vegetarians are the main contributors to Global Warming. They do this by not eating cows, which produce large amounts of methane. And what Wyatt said about Quorn and Tofu giving off lots of CO2 as it grows.

 

[kaze950]

I dislike the taste of vegetables, so I doubt I'll ever become one.

There is nothing I dislike more than a self-righteous vegetarian.

Let me ask you this - Most would consider it rude not to have a vegetarian option when an invited guest is a known vegetarian. Now, if a vegetarian had a dinner, would you consider it rude for them not to include meat in the meal if a number of the invited guests (or just one) weren't vegetarians?

 

[Ellie]

The difference is, the vegetarian can only eat the veggie option, but the meat eater doesn't have to eat the meat option.

Oh and I'm vegetarian, and the only vegetables I really eat are asparagus, lettuce, and potatoes. Other than that it's quorn, or tival stuff. (The Tival stuff is scary - before I became a vegetarian, my mom served us all Tival beef burgers, and chicken nuggets, and we only knew they weren't meat the day after when she told us, they're so much like the real thing. I actually had to open the bin and check the box the other day when I ate one of their burgers.)

I don't really know why I'm vegetarian, I just want to be. (Seeing the way chickens are treated etc is horrible, and stuff like that, I suppose). I have nothing against people who eat meat, and wouldn't like... pursuade someone to become vegetarian. It's a free choice, much like how you should be able to run around your town wearing just a tie around your neck, without being arrested. You might not like it, but it's their choice.

Hehe, if someone who eats mainly vegetables is a Vegetarian, then Hanibal Lector must be a great Humanitarian.

 

[Olivia]

Most meats you see in the shops are treated humanely, some from butcher shops aren't though. To be honest, if plants feel pain and are suffering all the time, just because it can't scream out and run away. Doesn't mean it doesn't make it at the same stage as animals. It suffers quietly. But not the same as humanely treated animal. But. If anyone wants to be activistic, they can eat grilled leather or something.

As a vegetarian, animals suffer in farmhouses more with the produce, rather than the meat. So. Same with plants, it must be like, picking off a unripe fruit must be like pulling out a milk tooth out a child's mouth before it goes wobbly.

 

[Venetia]

Who cares if anything feels pain? Shit, I'm in pain constantly. Arthritis/tendonitis/carpal tunnel/migraines/worn-down spinal discs/bum knee ....

Look, if you care that much about inflicting pain on others, go run outside, sit in a pool of water, and lay in the sun. Then wait for a few days. After a while, you'll realize you don't have chlorophyll, and you cannot create your own nutrition through nonviolent means!

Oh noes! I ate an apple! Thousands of tiny living cells are being smooshed by my teeth! --OMG! I just walked on the grass! Those blades must be screaming in agony!

WHO CARES

Look. People. We're at the top of the food chain. We eat things under us. BIG F'ING WHOOP. Ever watch the Discovery Channel? Ever see a video of lions killing a baby elephant or wolves tearing apart a young doe? Animals eat other animals. And they generally are killed a lot less "humanely".

Don't fret so much about how the animals (or vegetables, sheesh) died. Care about how they lived.

It's more sad to see a chicken bolted to a platform to lay eggs all day and night, or to see cows wallowing in filth because their caretakers only clean their 5x10 stalls once a week, than to know the things were hit over the head and died instantly.

So take action against how the creatures are treated in life, not death. Geez louise.

@Nphyx: I can't even look at that wall of text ... It hurts my eyes! How about some line breaks?

 

[___]

@Venetia: Sorry, I'm not big on brevity.  Paragraphs according to subject matter, that sort of thing.

@Cassy:  If you're European I imagine your assumption of animal treatment is pretty well on par, but in the United States the vast majority of animal products are produced in factory farms, which are just atrocious in every sense.  I'm not really concerned with the welfare of the animals as far as how luxurious and comfortable their lives are (*see below), but as a general rule it can be said that the worse the animal is treated while alive the worse condition it will arrive on your plate. 

I doubt if anyone here is old enough to remember this (I'm no codger myself, mind you) but 20 years ago you didn't have to cook all chicken thoroughly in order to ensure that you kill off all the salmonella, e-coli, or a variety of other bacterial and viral diseases before you eat it.  The reason we have to do that today is not that the chicken is an inherently diseased and filthy animal; it's a direct result of the conditions they are kept in factory farms.  Likewise, there is substantial evidence showing a correlation between the huge differences in growth and development patterns in human children today as compared to two generations ago and the amount of hormones, pesticides, et cetera used in the beef and dairy industry.  I can provide references if you like.  I'm not going to go into this too much, the info is available ad nauseam anywhere on or off the web.

Generally speaking though, it is not that our awareness of health issues in animal products has increased so much as the de facto standards of the industry have decreased.  You may say, well, our animal rights and health standards from a legal perspective have improved vastly and you'd be correct, however this is a direct result of a rising demand to have laws where the industry itself has failed to self-regulate.  If you buy from local farms or spend the extra money on organics, good for you, I mean that earnestly.  But that's not an option for many U.S. citizens who are on a limited budget or live in an area where those are not available.

*Back to animal welfare, while I have a general philosophy that one should do as little harm as he must to survive one must understand the fact that most animals, even those with relatively advanced nervous systems such as mammals, do not experience pain in the way a human being does.  Because an animal does not have the psychological capacity to reflect, worry, examine or consider the pain they do not experience the feedback loop that human beings do.  There is plenty of evidence to back this up.  So while it's ethically best to avoid causing harm where none is necessary, and most certainly not in a sadistic manner, I'm not going to cry any time one animal dies for the needs of another.  I fed my snake mice, I let my cats hunt, etc.

If you guys insist that I cite any of this I'll do it, but a few minutes spent on Google or Wikipedia should be enough for you to verify or contradict anything I have to say.

 

[Olivia]

I dunno why people fret about animals being "dangerous to eat" when the same stuff happens to our vegetables.

Do you know that most of the food (especially vegetables) are Genetically modified. In this way for example, moth genes are fused with potatos. Sardines with tomatoes. etc. Pig genes in trout. etc.
Also, they put things in the veg (and meat) to make it grow better, and it is also making our future generation big.

I am aware that chicken needs to be cleaned throughly and cooked before comsumption. But the reason why people were getting poisoned is because they were eating their chicken raw, or should I say; rare.

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previe ... 842358.JPG[/img]

I like my meat tender, but that is utter bull. ^ (though it's not actually chicken and not nessasarily severe, you get the idea.)
That is why people were getting sick, because of drinking warmed up chicken blood.

If you cook it until it's white in the middle, it's fine. No problem.

 

[___]

My point, though, was that 20 years ago that wasn't necessary.  If you liked your meat bloody and still clucking that was perfectly acceptable and there was no real risk of infection, because the animals themselves were not infected before slaughter, nor were their corpses left or prepared with those of other infected animals.  When I was a kid I liked all my meat rare and I never once got sick, same with my eggs.  The food poisoning epidemics didn't start until something like the late 80s-early 90s when I was a teenager and factory farming was really starting to become the industry standard (not 100% sure on the accuracy of those dates, I'm working off childhood memory here in lieu of researching it).  As for contaminated vegetables, the vast, vast majority of vegetable-based food poisoning is due to cross contamination from animal sources by food preparation staff using less-than-safe cleaning procedures.  Most vegetable diseases do not affect humans.  Among the ways you can get sick from veggies, mold due to rot, other forms of fungal infection before or after harvesting, and harmful bacteria introduced during the canning process such as botulism.

Spoiler: More On Why Chickens are Diseased

Keep in mind I'm not posting any of this to try to horrify you out of stopping eating chicken or anything like that, I just thought this deserved a little more depth of explanation than you're likely to go digging for on the subject.

So, the complete explanation for why chickens are diseased, as breif as I can make it:
The situation of chickens in factory farms is that they are placed in small shoebox sized wire cages, stacked several cages high and usually 2 animals to a cage. In many farms (this may be outlawed in some places now, I haven't kept up with the legislation) their beaks are partially or fully removed to prevent them damaging each-other by pecking.  The reason for that is that chickens are relatively stupid animals and they are incapable of handling social situations involving upwards of 50 animals; the ability for them to establish a pecking order breaks down (or is never possible in the first place due to the shoebox-cage situation) and lacking a pecking order they tend to just go nuts and attack everything around them indiscrimanately in a sort of confused, retarded rage.  Although the wounds are cauterized, the standards are often less than ideal.  So, lots of chickens, stacked on top of eachother, open wounds, not really moving much and performing all their life functions.  That means lots of chickens, pooping on eachother, for their entire lives.

The most common forms of infection in chicken products are intestinal bacteria, mostly Escherichia Coli and Salmonella.  E.Coli, as you may know, is a common bacteria found in most warm blooded animals that actually has a symbiotic relationship with its host when located in its proper place in the intestinal tract.  Salmonella bacteria cause diseases such as typhoid.  Not all strains of E.Coli are hazardous to humans, nor are most strains of salmonella that infect chickens (sucks to be the chicken, though), and those that are are mostly damaging when ingested, where they can find their way into parts of the body they don't belong.  So you have all these chickens, pooping on each-other's open wounds, into each-other's food, and generally all over the place, and some of these chickens carry virulent strains of these common bacteria.  By the time they're slaughtered, a large portion of them are infected. That's despite heavy doses of antibiotics - or perhaps because antibiotics have been used so much that they've forced bacteria to rapidly evolve resistance to them, but that's a tangent.

So on to the slaughtering process; when chickens are slaughtered in factory farms, one of the things that happens is that they gut the chickens with a hook-shaped object (after they're dead of course).  Since this is often automated, and not all chickens are shaped the same, sometimes the hook gutter thingy (no idea what it's called) rips open their intestines, spilling more chicken poop all over the chicken corpse.  That chicken corpse is then thrown in a vat of very cold water with a bunch of other chicken corpses, where its often infected poop is circulated around to all the other chicken corpses.  So by the time it reaches the meat cutter at the supermarket or distribution center (that's my dad's job), your average chicken corpse has had lots of opportunities to get E.Coli (and is generally pooptastic).

Once you have E.Coli, the only ways to get rid of it are natural immune response, not helpful at all to a immuno-deficient malnourished chicken's corpse, or to heat up to the point that the E.Coli dies, which means very thorough cooking.  And that's why I had to stop eating my chicken pink, the way I liked it.  In a very big nutshell.

Oh incidentally egg producing chickens in factory farms live in a similar situation, with the major difference being that they live longer and serve a different purpose.  They tend to pass on their infection to their eggs, which is why it's mildly dangerous to eat raw eggs, such as in mayonnaise, or undercooked eggs.  Not a big deal since infection rates are really low.

Genetically modified plants are still very controversial, but yes it's true in North America they do a lot of genetic engineering in our vegetables.  Most of the rest of the world does not have the technology or else has laws against it.  In my personal opinion based on what I have read we are not nearly to the point that we know enough about genetic engineering to be doing this yet - I feel it's going to turn out like the "let's put radioactive chemicals in everything just because they're super-neat" craze in the early 20th century.  There have already been studies showing statistical correlation between the rise in food allergies in humans and the consumption of GM plants.  Furthermore there is the issue of the vast reduction in genetic diversity due to GM produce being nearly identical clones of eachother, which increases the odds that an entire crop can get wiped out at once by all variety of things. However you can buy non-GM produce at most grocery stores on the west coast at least, and at farmer's markets where most goods you'll find are non-GM and often organic.  Outside the U.S. you won't find this almost at all.

 

[Samboy]

Who gives a shit about animals that are bred EXCLUSIVELY for our eating? It's more humane to kill animals the quick, sharp way, instead of how they would be in the wild (eg. guts hanging out of its arse, slowly and painfully losing blood). Think about it... what would happen to those animals we just... set free? THEY would soon overpopulate, and then we would have to start culling them, otherwise we could not live as civilized humans any longer. Culling them would be about as humane as what we're doing at the moment, wouldn't it? They would eat our food stock and breed into vast proportions. No, we are going to eat meat for a long time yet.

I love my meat. I made a meat cake just to show how much I love meat:

Spoiler: Meaty Cakey Goodness...

http://allwomenstalk.com/wp-content/thumbs/24319.jpg[/img]

 

[Grandor]

Meat provides you with the proteins you really need. Their is no real vegetable that can replace the amount of protein that a good steak could give you. Have you ever really seen a healthy looking vegetarian? They always look kind of pale. Besides we humans are omnivores by nature.

 

[Olivia]

They can re-norish it with vitamins, but they can become bad for you after a while. Pregnant women can't eat them either. Nor some types of vegetables.

 

[mawk]

There are veggies that can replace the protein and other things found in meat, and supplements for things that are more difficult to find. If there weren't, vegetarians would all eventually develop serious health problems if they weren't secretly sneaking out for burgers and fries. I don't think Buddhist monks have to contend with iron deficiency very often. It is more difficult to have a balanced diet as a vegetarian, but it's very possible, and the taste shouldn't be an issue either if you know your seasonings (SECRET HINT: garlic is a vegetable too!) It takes effort, though, which is why I suppose it turns so many off.

Although I have no objections to the consumption of meat, I'm seriously turned off by the conditions most meat is prepared in. Right from birth, your standard chicken is on a conveyor belt, and is immunized in the same method used to fill bottles. Just, um, with needles. However, halal meats are prepared (by divine order, no less) in humane ways, right down to the method of execution (slitting of the throat. It's more peaceful than depicted in Sweeney Todd.) I haven't examined halal farms personally, but I know that no Muslim wants to lie to the Big Guy. That's how I manage to remain an omnivore. When I'm no longer a gangly teenage resource sink, though, I'll seriously consider going cold turkey; there are even some very good veg'tarian restaurants on the street I'll live in during my University years.

 

[Venetia]

Slitting of the throat stems an antiquated idea of it making the meat tastier. It's not peaceful at all--have you ever seen it happen? Saddest thing I ever saw in my life. I was at a farm at the wrong time. It really does nothing but torture the animal. It takes anywhere from 20 minutes to 2 hours for animals as large as pigs or cows to bleed out. Sure, they'll pass out within about 4-8 minutes, but that's 4-8 minutes of tremendous, excruciating agony.

I won't disagree with how they treat the animals though: in life they generally are treated better. But all livestock really need are some acres to wander and some food to chew and clean water to drink. Some companies have refused even the basic needs of these animals' lives, and they need to be the ones under scrutiny.


Edit: I forgot to mention ... If you live in the U.S. and you're eating whole steak, flank, or large, higher-quality cuts of meat sold raw, it's extremely likely that you're eating an animal which was treated fine and had plenty of land to graze upon. In the south there are millions of acres allocated to raising livestock. I live right next to a small ranch raising meat-cows (I mean it--they're practically in my backyard--we're only separated by a 5' high fence). They seem to be doing extremely well. They have tons of land and a small thicket to meander through, and look very healthy.

It's the meat you see in pet food, or which are by-products or used as additives in pre-cooked food, that you need to worry about. They're the ones which are raised in factories.

I'm speaking of large livestock, though. I personally don't know anything about the treatment of chickens.

 

[___]

You are correct, Venetia, in essence about beef.  As far as the stuff you buy in grocery stores, they are reasonably well treated.  Dairy cows, not so much, but not to the disgusting (from a health standards point of view) way chickens are.  Much of the "beef" you get from fast food joints (McD's is notorious for this) is a mix of dairy cow meat, soy, and random unidentifiable crap, but that's less a matter of animal treatment and more a matter of "how the fuck does it take Mc.Donalds 13 ingredients to make fries?  Salt, potatoes, frying oil.  Whuh?"  So different subject matter.

Many of the other posts on this page = fail for not reading any part of the thread and being ignorant.   Oh, as far as looking pale, the amount of melanin in your skin is the only factor of any importance in skin tone, and I hate to break it to you but it's not stimulated by meat consumption.  It's stimulated by sun exposure and affected by genetics.  I'm a pale ass vegetarian, because I am a "night person" and of northern European descent, and I don't make it my business to get a tan.  I was actually paler before, due to not feeling any need whatsoever to look after my health, but now I try to get out and get a little exercise.  Other vegetarians I know do get tans.  The palest person I have *ever* known would rather starve than eat a carrot, weighed upwards of 300 pounds, and didn't go outside except to go pick up a week's supply of Jumbo Jacks.  So I call BS on that one.

 

[Ellie]

In regards to what people were saying about nutrients (ages ago, but meh), I have found since I've stopped eating fish I have cravings for Walnuts, which funnily enough have omega 3. So whatever it is you are lacking due to vegetarianism, your body will find substitutes. (It's weird how it can go through all the food you've ever eaten, seemingly, and find out which have omega 3. )

Oh and I'm extremely pale, but have been since birth.


My family in New Zealand just started up a chicken ranch, and I can tell you it's not good. They sent photographs back of how "proud" they were of this new business. It's absolutely disgusting the conditions they are in. Imagine a hamster cage, with a chicken stuck in it. Now imagine this same cage, with four chickens stuffed in it, with a small water drip on top, and a conveyor belt in front with seeds in it. Now imagine this same cage, in rows of 1,000, 25 cages high. And these rows, back to back, filling an entire barn.

 

[___]

Yep that's a typical small scale factory farm.  Imagine that, repeated a dozen or more times over in several facilities, plus conveyor belts on which chicks are passed on, inspected based growth rate and visible defects, and then selected for either continued development in the cages or "destruction", usually they just get plopped into a big box and gassed.  Like I said before I'm not really big on animal rights, but some perversions of nature seem a little extreme to me.  It's a matter of respect and basic dignity which I think when discarded completely as in situations like that ultimately has a dehumanizing effect on society as a whole.  When we treat everything around us and even eachother simply as objects to be exploited, we disrespect a basic aspect of our own humanity.  I don't know, just feels wrong.