Religion, what do you think?

[Stardust]

Calm yourselves. This is getting into the realm of personal attacks and that's not cool.

I'll attempt to summarize what's been stated so far for those who are going tl;dr. Scientific theories seem to have more evidence supporting them (thus the "scientific" part). It's recognized that these aren't necessarily true, but they're the closest we're able to come to it with what we have. Religious theories don't have much evidence (or at least not that's been presented here) and most people on this side of the argument try to disprove science instead of prove their own theories. This merely proves that the current scientific theories may be wrong, not that religious theories are right. Both sides need to be less stubborn and more open-minded since we really don't know what's the truth.

No idea how accurate that is in your eyes, but it's what I've gleaned from the discussion so far.

And please don't continue arguing. Feel free to continue the discussion, but don't include personal feelings in it.

 

[Incognitus]

Your summary is pretty apt Guardian, except for the word "seem" as in "Scientific theories seem to have more evidence supporting them".

Scientific theories do have more evidence supporting them because they are required to have evidence to support them. New facts are placed within existing frameworks until they become unteneable and thusly overthrown and replaced with new ones.

This isn't about "atheism verses deism", of which some people might misconscrue my above post as being an example, but it is rapidly anti-Creationism-masquerading-as-Science...ism. There have been many polls conducted, whose accuracy or methods I won't waste time debating here, which seems to show that many scientists (even those from the traditionally "hard" aspects such as physics) who poll to say they believe in a deity. The gulf between these scientists and the creationists in their models of the universe have greatly to do with their understanding of facts, figures and the scientific method. Having a knowledge of the universe evidently does not automatically kill faith.

There are still many different theories about what went on before the universe, or whether there even was a before (although evolution is nigh-on universally excepted by anyone with even a scant overview of the masses of work done in the various fields). I'm particularly fond of string-theory myself, although I'm not sure I understand it entirely: there's just something particularly evocative about the (poetic) idea that the universe is like a violin, and that everything rises from the movement of these strings and the entirety of what we see when we look around us is the music of that violin... or something... Like I said, I don't really understand it, and that's probably a dumbed down version of a dumbed down version (from Brian Greene's Elegant Universe: check it out!). It also has a particular resonance with one of the Genesis descriptions of which I have always been fond; that of the "Spirit moving on the face of the waters". So yeah. :boo:

If you want me to respect your opinion that the world was created in Seven Days, or Seven Ages, or in a vat of butter, or is really flat, well I'm not going to. "Respect" is far too strong a word. "Tolerate" seems patronising for everyone involved, and I don't think there is really a word that fits. So I'll just say that I nod wryly and not take it any further, and would love to debate it and it's implications as a religious idea (particularly the vat of butter thing: I've never been able to work out it's implications), but say that any of the above are a Scientific theory without backing it up and I think you're opening yourself to... harsh criticism.

Both sides need to be less stubborn and more open-minded since we really don't know what's the truth....

And please don't continue arguing. Feel free to continue the discussion, but don't include personal feelings in it.

We have to include personal feelings in it (one side is mostly built around personal feelings!). But in response to your opening line, there are no personal attacks here, and I am perfectly calm (save for brief moments) and my last post was more waspish than aggressive or into the realm of 'personal attacks': I cannot help but loathe and detest the idiotic anti-science...ism.

True science is open-minded, true religion demands closed-mindedness.

 

[Incognitus]

Belief and the brain's 'God spot'

Scientists say they have located the parts of the brain that control religious faith. And the research proves, they contend, that belief in a higher power is an evolutionary asset that helps human survival.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 41022.html

I think, drawing a distinction between religion, faith, and the hypothetical existence of Deity x, religion has been a very important assest developing mind/theory of mind.

It's interesting about Richard Dawkins and that helmet - I saw the documentary the article mentions but there's really a greater sense of context herein. I'd like to know what his response to this is though - he often uses the example of religious behaviour being a misfiring of some other behaviour. I can't really tell if this article confirms or denies this.

Some people might be wise to note this little piece at the end:

"When we have incomplete knowledge of the world around us, it offers us the opportunities to believe in God. When we don't have a scientific explanation for something, we tend to rely on supernatural explanations," said Professor Grafman, who believes in God. "Maybe obeying supernatural forces that we had no knowledge of made it easier for religious forms of belief to emerge."

:wink:


Thoughts?

 

[promiser]

Religion in my opinion is a scam.
Like insurance...
You pay for it until you need it then you pay more when you do...
Ever notice how whenever we need God, we have to do all the work... Like praying? And trying to do it ourselves? And when we ask God if nothing amazing happens to fix it God is 'testing us'? But when something good does, IT'S THE GRACE OF GOD! Ever notice that we are always 'inspired'? It's a self inflicted feeling. You can convince yourself you are sad, or mad, or glad, just like you can convince yourself you are feeling the spirit. Healing by faith works the same way. Ever heard of a placebo? You think the medicine will work and your mind tricks your body into thinking it did. There is no God. Your pastor just wants the money.
I'm not saying everything you know is wrong, just think twice about these things...
Like this one... Old Testament, God turning people into pillars of salt, God raining frogs, and all sorts of other things... New Testament... Jesus healed people left and right (and cursed a fig tree) Now after his resurrection after his Crucifixion what has happened?
Religion in my opinion is people exploiting fears now... It used to be an explanation for the unexplained...
Just my thoughts though...

 

[blackspets]

There is really no reason to disscuss scientific theories considering the fact that none can be proven. Technicaly (I spelled that wrong i think) religion doesn't necessarily have much to do with god, Other than the fact different religions believe in different gods. The relegion is merely a group of people who have a few of the same beleifs.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Incognitus]

There is really no reason to disscuss scientific theories considering the fact that none can be proven.

Indeed, in fact, they are so unprovable that it stands thus that there exist even fewer reasons for you to be discussing this with your computer, on the internet.

 

[Venetia]

I think Arbiter was making a point that this isn't a forum designed to talk about how something can't be debated; rather, it is a forum designed to allow you TO debate things.

So.
Uh.
Debate.
Yeah.


Uh...

Yay god!

Discuss.

 

[Incognitus]

I think Arbiter was making a point that this isn't a forum designed to talk about how something can't be debated; rather, it is a forum designed to allow you TO debate things.

So.
Uh.
Debate.
Yeah.


Uh...

Yay god!

Discuss.

I note you have not capitalised it, Ven. Which god are you talking about?!?!?!?! :P

 

[Cruelty]

venetias a hardcore scientologist
probably xenu

Religion in my opinion is a scam.
Like insurance...
You pay for it until you need it then you pay more when you do...
Ever notice how whenever we need God, we have to do all the work... Like praying? And trying to do it ourselves? And when we ask God if nothing amazing happens to fix it God is 'testing us'? But when something good does, IT'S THE GRACE OF GOD! Ever notice that we are always 'inspired'? It's a self inflicted feeling. You can convince yourself you are sad, or mad, or glad, just like you can convince yourself you are feeling the spirit. Healing by faith works the same way. Ever heard of a placebo? You think the medicine will work and your mind tricks your body into thinking it did. There is no God. Your pastor just wants the money.
I'm not saying everything you know is wrong, just think twice about these things...
Like this one... Old Testament, God turning people into pillars of salt, God raining frogs, and all sorts of other things... New Testament... Jesus healed people left and right (and cursed a fig tree) Now after his resurrection after his Crucifixion what has happened?
Religion in my opinion is people exploiting fears now... It used to be an explanation for the unexplained...
Just my thoughts though...

i don't even know where to start.

first of all, you pastor does not want your money. one of my closest friends actually has gotten money FROM his church on occasion to help him with his financial troubles and paying for school. the whole 'church is a money scam' theory has been blown out of proportion. that rarely happens, and when it does - it's the face of greedy people, not the face of the actual religion and it's real believers. also, the churches that DO ask for your money almost always do so because a church is non-profit, and and they have to pay for the use of the land/building/etc. even god's house isn't powered by the love of god. they need help to keep the churches running, they don't just pocket everything and buy toys with it.

telling people, basically, to just be good people, and teaching them that death isn't so scary is hardly exploiting fears.

 

[Brimstone-x]

Religion is just a passing belief the majority shares. Years later, science will rule, and I (A catholic) will be the idiot. Just like years before that, the jews were the idiots. And ETC.

As much as people don't want to admit it, as much as it cripples you to know this, Years into the future, science will have its run, some other stupid radical thing will come along, and Scientists will be the idiots.

Don't give me the "its fact" crap either. Doesn't make a difference, something will always come along, so, I say live and let live, until they come along and tell all that the Pulipolian Alien from Planet Gazuipi, the planet of Gertlesmers(Gods) will come and steal all the yuipilongss from our planet and prevent our bodys to be revived in time machines in the year blingsmar.

Wow...Guess that makes me a pretty weak catholic huh? Meh, I fear commitment.

 

[Folk_Tale164]

Well, if you look at that way, it is possible, Brimstone.

But if you look at that way, it makes religion to be an idiot-machine-producer.

So why are we trusting this machine? cause we know that the creator of this life isn't a dumbhead who doesn't know what is he doing!

So that makes our religion must have a *meaning*! and it's not idiot-machine-producers!

So i think we all have to study our religion well.

And that does not make you a weak catholic.

 

[Cruelty]

Religion is just a passing belief the majority shares. Years later, science will rule, and I (A catholic) will be the idiot. Just like years before that, the jews were the idiots. And ETC.

As much as people don't want to admit it, as much as it cripples you to know this, Years into the future, science will have its run, some other stupid radical thing will come along, and Scientists will be the idiots.

Don't give me the "its fact" crap either. Doesn't make a difference, something will always come along, so, I say live and let live, until they come along and tell all that the Pulipolian Alien from Planet Gazuipi, the planet of Gertlesmers(Gods) will come and steal all the yuipilongss from our planet and prevent our bodys to be revived in time machines in the year blingsmar.

Wow...Guess that makes me a pretty weak catholic huh? Meh, I fear commitment.

excuse while i stretch the word 'what?!' into an entire paragraph, good sir

The jews were never idiots. they had their religion, and in the religion was a prophecy which came true. some jews just don't believe that it was the right dude. they were never proven wrong, or just revealed to be idiots, their religion - in some sense - actually worked. even older religions than that, like buddhism, were never proven wrong, so i'm not quite understanding where you're getting at with 'the jews were the idiots, and etc'. i am not sure what you're basing your theory on (quite frankly i'm not even sure you've thought about, nor studied these things enough to form the opinion you did), but it seems to be pretty weak.

if you're a catholic, and you don't genuinely follow catholicism, then you're not a catholic btw.

 

[Twin Matrix]

There's a force behind everything. There's no denial to this. Even if the Big Bang happened (which could also be seen as true even from a Christian point of view, where God created the Big Bang as part of the symbolic seven days of world creation), it had to have come from somewhere as well. And this we cannot comprehend, other than a force or being having caused it. We really don't have the power to understand, though. So it'll always remain a mystery until you die and leave the limitations of the body, or you die and it's OVAR. =) Actually, that reminds me of that if you believe in religion when you live, you lived a good and hopeful life, and when you die you'll either go to heaven or you'll never find out that it wasn't true. But if you lived without believing, you lived a life feeling empty and you'll either not go to heaven if it does exist, or you'll simply die as you predicted. So believing is win-win either way. o.o

Claiming that religion has evolutionary purpose is pretty bs IMO. Things like that will never be proven, which sort of makes it just as 'spacy' as believing in a greater being. :d

 

[baniff]

Hmmm... I see a lot of Christian vs Science discussion with a little Buddhism thrown in, but there are other religions you know. I suppose since Christianity is the big one this was bound to happen, but still... Karma is possible too, right?

And Twin Matrix, and I like that little thing about believing is a win-win. Very clever
I wish I could believe in some religion.

 

[craybest]

Why people assume the only way of living a happy and fulfilling life is believing in some kind of religion? I'm angnostic/atheist and my life is neither empty, or sad. You should try to think better your arguments because sometimes you end up offending people.

 

[Ocean]

I don't think God, if it exists, would be stupid enough to be taken in by an insincere belief just so you could get to heaven. If I don't see any evidence of a god, I'm not going to assume it exists. Not to mention some people who used to be in a religion, got out later and are happier because of that.

I'm pretty sure the religion having evolutionary purpose has a fair amount of studying behind it and isn't just some random BS that you claim it is.

 

[Twin Matrix]

^

I find 'scientific' claims without proof random BS. :p Like those 3D dino models in documentaries and such. When they make them, they claim they've done enough study and are sure how they looked back then. Then later they find some new material, and HEY, it looks completely different from what we thought! Today we say A, tomorrow we say B.

@crayb: From personal experience, people who believe in absolutely no God/afterlife/etc. are either the get-drunk-intelligence-on-zero types, the I-believe-only-in-math types, the I-feel-like-getting-hit-by-a-car-today types, the 24/7-video-games-are-all-that-matters-types, the I-like-to-be-a-rebel types or the type that when you start talking to them about dying or afterlife they get depressed/agitated/some kind of negative emotion. The others have either just not looked into it, haven't come in contact with any info on it, believe in 'something' but are not quite sure what, or believe in their own thing. I'm not judging you, as I don't know you, of course. ^^ But I have yet to come across someone in RL that believes in nothing, is a sane person, has sincerely and seriously philosophised and looked into the subject from an objective point of view, does not fall under the above types and can say with every inch of happiness in his heart that he will not be happier by believing in a future. Of course you can be HAPPY. Very happy, if you lead a good life. I'm more talking about fulfillment or whatever the term is in English. :d

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Venetia]

I personally don't care whether God or an afterlife exists or not, I don't believe they do but at the same time I don't believe they don't. I'm not going to waste my time thinking about it or doing something about it, I'm going to live my life and when it ends, it ends, and whatever happens after I die happens.

I don't care what religion someone follows no matter how stupid I think the relating believes are, as long as it doesn't effect me or they try to convert me, I couldn't care less.

^

If more people just spent their time rolling with it and watching porn instead of trying to hopelessly cling to fruitless philosophical theories and conjectures we'd all be better off.