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Princess Amy":34taybi4 said:
You want to do what I want to do. Desperately.
I can do what you want to do, I want to figure out if I really want to do it.

What I'll probably do is spend this weekend planning, calculating and checking the feasibility. Will need to reassess the market again as it's been over a year since I last did that.

My biggest problem is I love developing technology more than developing games; that's definitely my one weakness I believe - So I'd have to force myself to do what will get the project finished and not what will get the project being the shiniest re-invented wheel the world has ever seen.
 
I wouldn't recommend it if you're not prepared to lose a bunch of money on it. Here's a sobering look at the finances of indie game development:
http://www.lostgarden.com/2015/04/minim ... s.html?m=1

Also, visual novel/adventure game hybrids don't exactly sell. If you're seriously considering it, keep an eye on how Herald does. It's coming out soon and is a VN/adventure game with high production values. But I've done a lot of market research on visual novels, and the prospects are grim. I don't know about adventure games, but I can't imagine it'll be much better.

Honestly, if you like tech more than actually making games, there's no reason to take on all the risk and stress of the indie life. Imo what you should do is keep your job and write marketplace plugins for big engines like Unity or Unreal until you're making enough to support yourself with it. Middleware is probably a more sustainable revenue source, and it sounds like you'd enjoy it more. The only reason to quit your job and make a game is because you have a burning desire to and won't be happy with your life otherwise.
 
I wouldn't exactly be quitting my job to make games, circumstances have just given me an opportunity to put full time towards a project, which i expect to not be a profitable venture, but it's one I'd like to do. I wouldn't be earning any money from it, it would be burning my funds, but I have a lot saved (I was saving to buy a house with my ex, then she became my ex) and my expenses are pittance (living at home, so very cheap rent).

I'm cross-disciplined, I am a writer and have been writing since college, that - along with my user interface/interaction design skills - are what helped me get my current job, rather than just being an excellent programmer.

I most certainly can pull it off; got the resources, skills, time and money - it's the risk of hitting the end result (if I even hit the end result), looking back and thinking "that was pointless" and gaining nothing that puts me off.

If I don't go with this crazy idea then I'll be working elsewhere (very likely in the games industry still) and I'll be back to only spending the weekends on this project.
 
Xilef":18dv4szq said:
I wouldn't exactly be quitting my job to make games, circumstances have just given me an opportunity to put full time towards a project, which i expect to not be a profitable venture, but it's one I'd like to do. I wouldn't be earning any money from it, it would be burning my funds, but I have a lot saved (I was saving to buy a house with my ex, then she became my ex) and my expenses are pittance (living at home, so very cheap rent).

I'm cross-disciplined, I am a writer and have been writing since college, that - along with my user interface/interaction design skills - are what helped me get my current job, rather than just being an excellent programmer.

I most certainly can pull it off; got the resources, skills, time and money - it's the risk of hitting the end result (if I even hit the end result), looking back and thinking "that was pointless" and gaining nothing that puts me off.

If I don't go with this crazy idea then I'll be working elsewhere (very likely in the games industry still) and I'll be back to only spending the weekends on this project.
Oh sure, I believe you have the skills to pull it off. I wasn't questioning that but rather what you'd get out of it personally. It's fine to work on a project you expect to make a loss, but the question is 1. whether this is something you're really passionate about and 2. whether it'll help or hurt you when you look for another job afterwards. The game industry is pretty portfolio-driven, so it might be fine.

The reason I asked about the writing was that I don't think it's a good idea to make a visual novel unless you're really passionate about writing. I mean, just being able to do it is fine, but writing something like that is way more work than people usually think it is. (I'm on the fifth-ish draft of mine, and I still probably have at least two to go... -_-;)

How big is this project? What's the estimated playtime/word count? How many assets do you need? It's hard to give advice without knowing more. I think taking a few months off to work on a personal project is fine if you're between jobs anyway, but if we're talking years, you should think a lot harder about it. Also, what kind of games have you finished before, and what kind of scope did they have?
 
Perihelion":36c3jsu5 said:
How big is this project? What's the estimated playtime/word count? How many assets do you need? It's hard to give advice without knowing more. I think taking a few months off to work on a personal project is fine if you're between jobs anyway, but if we're talking years, you should think a lot harder about it. Also, what kind of games have you finished before, and what kind of scope did they have?
These are all things I'm going to be working out over the weekend. Definitely won't be feasible if it's a crazy idea, so I'm specifically keeping the scope low.

I'd expect it to be completable in a solid 2 or 3 hours, that's the target.

The game scenario would be set over a short time frame, 7 days are what's on my mind right now with 1 of those days dedicated to character development between the player and the other main character (no exploration occurring, basically it's a "sick day" dedicated to exploring the other main character's personality, as they act as the guide to the player so their character isn't ideal for exploring until I expect the player is comfortable with navigating the game).

The scope of the world - which would definitely be real-time rendered for asset reuse and fast iteration - I still need to figure out. I've got a good idea of having the entire scenario take place in a small location and I'd restrict each area to be distinctive (if two areas are too similar, then one of them needs to be cut), so areas would be along the lines of "path through forest", "train platform", "path along beach", "main street", "urban street" with indoor locations the focus (I find interiors much easier to map). It would be tight locations to give more of a focus on the people found - solving mysteries and helping people within the 7 days.

The PS1 first-person shooter "Resident Evil Survivor" features the kind of world scope I'd aim for (and level of simplicity).

Meat of the writing would be the sub-scenarios within the 7 days, rather than the story that's presented at the start and end. I like the idea of that kind of challenge and that's where I expect re-playability to be (missed scenarios, missed people, different end results which affect different people).

Kind of games I've finished before (university projects and game jams) were very similar to this set-up (I didn't realise how similar until just this second); basically freely navigating a small-world to complete branches of a task to hit the end. One particular project that stuck with me was a game where you had to navigate your way into a science lab after changing into lab-coat, etc, and safely setting up an experiment (the project was "game for a client") and I ended up making a really, really nice system for interacting with the world which I'd like to explore more.

It won't be years, it will be at the most until the end of this year. I'd go fully hard-core with 7-day working on the project to get it done. I'd blast towards getting the entire scenario walk-able as the prototype and then iterate on polish.

What do you think?
 
Honestly, that doesn't sound like something you can finish in nine months, although it depends a lot on scope.

- How many environments, and how long are you planning to spend on each one? What kind of style are they in? Are you making them from scratch? How complex do you want them to be? I'm not familiar with the game you cited.
- How many character models? Ditto to above.
- How many character portraits + expressions? Are you drawing them yourself?
- How good do you want the story to be? How many drafts are you willing to do?
- What percentage of the game is going to be gameplay versus story?
- What tech are you using? How much time do you plan to spend programming the game?

For comparison, I originally planned my game to take around three months. I cut the gameplay, but it's still looking more like six months now. I've outsourced all the programming, the character art, the event graphics, the music, and the GUI design and have left mostly backgrounds and writing + getting it into the engine with polish/SFX/whatever + managerial things for myself. It's still a ton of work. Granted, I have a full-time job, but I work on the game probably 20-40 hours a week. My biggest problem is too many environments (I'm going to need 14, plus variations on some), but even so, I'm doing prerendered BGs with models found on the internet and it's still a ton of work.

So my advice is to plan your game to take an hour and to be completable in three months. Engineers are notoriously bad at estimations.
 
Perihelion":3cngkvz3 said:
Honestly, that doesn't sound like something you can finish in nine months, although it depends a lot on scope.

- How many environments, and how long are you planning to spend on each one? What kind of style are they in? Are you making them from scratch? How complex do you want them to be? I'm not familiar with the game you cited.
- How many character models? Ditto to above.
- How many character portraits + expressions? Are you drawing them yourself?
- How good do you want the story to be? How many drafts are you willing to do?
- What percentage of the game is going to be gameplay versus story?
- What tech are you using? How much time do you plan to spend programming the game?

For comparison, I originally planned my game to take around three months. I cut the gameplay, but it's still looking more like six months now. I've outsourced all the programming, the character art, the event graphics, the music, and the GUI design and have left mostly backgrounds and writing + getting it into the engine with polish/SFX/whatever + managerial things for myself. It's still a ton of work. Granted, I have a full-time job, but I work on the game probably 20-40 hours a week. My biggest problem is too many environments (I'm going to need 14, plus variations on some), but even so, I'm doing prerendered BGs with models found on the internet and it's still a ton of work.

So my advice is to plan your game to take an hour and to be completable in three months. Engineers are notoriously bad at estimations.
I am terrible with estimations; when I say something will take 1 week it ends up being 1 day and when I say 1 month it ends up being 1 week. I'm pretty much infamous for my highly pessimistic outlook on projects.

If you don't mind I'll try to work out these bullet points here. This kind of Q&A interrogation is exactly what I need to inject some sensible thought into this crazy idea.

How many environments...
With the tools I have it takes me about half an hour to scrub up an orange mapped environment. I'd be doing this for all environments required. As for how many environments? In my head I imagine 5, but I highly doubt I'll only stick to 5, I'll probably end up doing 15.
The style will be incredibly basic; map detail level is Duke Nukem 3D, but the texture work I'm going to keep low-frequency. I will rely on the engine to do lighting so I don't have to worry about that extra layer of work.
I definitely predict that most of the time spent doing the environments will creating props to fill them with, which will be done last of all.

How many character models...
My plan is to make a mannequin model for all background characters; white, faceless, genderless people, for just standing around in the background. I might even omit background people entirely as most visual novels don't include them.
The story NPCs I'd build modular, static models for them (at the most, key-frame animated). Quake III style, so legs, torso and waist separated so I can mix-and-match. Any defining features I'd do in the same way with props; so a character with a skirt would have a static skirt mesh added to their mannequin, or a character with a hat.
I also plan on avoiding the UV stage by mapping their textures in screen-space, which will eliminate the need to texture the actual models.
Their faces will be multi-framed 2D.
The number of characters depends on how many story threads I end up writing.

How many character portraits...
This is where I think I will struggle most. I am best with drawing poses and clothing, so I'll probably end up making various template poses and dressing them up. I'd likely move the faces to be dynamic similar to Live2D, so a generic eye and mouth system can be used. I'm definitely thinking of this from the viewpoint that I'd be the only one doing these things so I need to make it as easy, yet effective, as possible.

How good do you want the story to be...
I've gone through about 2 draft iterations already on the story, both iterations are from last year so I'll likely iterate on it a few more times. My plan is, yet again, to simplify massively and make it as modular as possible. The main meaty story will only be at the start and end of the game, the events that occur between the start and the end I'm making modular and barely related to the overarching story. I'm more interested in character relationships than story, so that's where I am going to focus on.
It's not at all a deep and complex story, it's a story about how the situation that the player is in affects the people around them.
The majority of the writing will definitely be spent developing the individual threads for the characters. Keeping them modular means I don't have to worry about linking them back to the start, I just need to make sure the game can pull the threads together at the end. It also gives me the freedom to cut an entire section of story, including the character involved, without having to reshuffle all the characters to fill spaces.

What percentage of the game is going to be gameplay versus story...
The game-play will be incredibly bare. The choices the player makes will likely be based on what they did at a certain time or what item is in their inventory. I want to avoid complex mechanics, I don't feel a game like this needs complexity. I may do puzzles, but I doubt it. The dialogue and characters will be front and centre.

What tech are you using...
Whatever is most friendly with the type of resources I have planned. I don't want to spend more time wrestling with the technology to fit my content production pipeline than producing content.
I might just load up Irrlicht/Ogre and plug in Lua and go from there. That would take a few days.


Thank you a lot for helping me with this
 
No problem. All of that sounds pretty reasonable, but it also sounds like there are a lot of unknowns. There's a huge variability in the amount of time you can spend on art, so I think you should do some research and experimentation before you commit to anything. I have a few suggestions.

- Make an environment and see how long it takes you and how much time you have to put in for the quality you want. Have you done any environments from start to completion before? There's a lot that goes into it beyond just modeling, like composition and lighting and whatever else.

- Ditto for a character. If you don't have a lot of story NPCs, making everything extremely modular might end up being more trouble than it's worth (unless characters are wearing uniforms or something). Also, what are you doing about animations? They can be a really big problem if you don't have a good source for them.

- Plan out a concrete list of story characters who will need assets. Try to keep it as small as possible, especially if they need models. Write the story around the scope limitations, not the other way around. Same for environments. It's very easy to increase scope as you're writing if you're not disciplined about asset restrictions.

- Get Live2D and try making a face template or something. It's pretty easy to use; you can pick it up in a night or two.

Basically, I suggest doing some initial research into the big unknowns about your project so you can gauge how much work they'll be and scope accordingly.

I'd also recommend Unity. It kind of sucks for complex 3D games if you need sophisticated pathfinding and performant terrain and whatever else, but simple 3D rooms should be fine, and Mecanim will save you a lot of time and effort on animations. Retargeting has caused us much sorrow in the past, but if you use Unity, you can just buy animation packs from the store and they'll magically work with all your characters. Unity also has a Live2D plugin.
 

Jason

Awesome Bro

bacon":3cddybfi said:
#sonice

biscuits-nice_3378529k.jpg
 
I've been working on a research project pro bono while I study for my Pathology Residency test. I told my dad I was excited about the possibility of building an app to help local pregnant women and that it would be good for my CV. He told me it was a waste of time. Then he sneered at me and told me that I needed to settle down (get into medical residency) like my classmates that are already in residency. It's not like I haven't spent the last two years of my life trying to do that. It really hurts when your dad lets you know you're simply not good enough.

Needless to say, I now feel like crap. :sad:
 

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