Making Villains Similar to the Most Popular Ones

[KhaoticErase]

Okay, then. How do I explain this?

Fiction is not real. Anything can happen in fiction, regardless of whether or not there's a reason. When there's no reason, it's random, which is perfect for comedic or psychedelic-style stories.

But when you give this fictional world reasons for the things that happen, you create a chain of events. Reason A causes Event A which becomes Reason B and causes Event B, etc. This is exactly what happens in the real world, only in a much more complicated web-pattern.

When you create a chain of events in a fictional world, you create the illusion that the world is operating like a real one. This imaginary world, with demons, magic, airships, etc., has been given a system that makes it appear real, and henceforth helps the audience feel as though they are experiencing that world.

But what if the audience doesn't want to experience that world because there are too many distasteful things in it, such as rape? That world doesn't exist, and can freely be changed to suit those tastes. No world can apply to the tastes of everyone, which is why so many new worlds have been offered to us by means of books, games, television, movies, etc. We find a world we love, a world with many interesting things in it that help us to truly feel our emotions, we grow emotionally attached to it. This is how these worlds develop popularity.

Most people in the world are, how you say, biased toward ugly people, even those same people. They don't want to "live" in a world with ugly people in it, which is why so many games have impossibly good-looking characters in it. The attraction of characters helps to attract a greater audience, because humans (primitively speaking) are a bunch of animals (aka, sex-fiends).

Now, if all of these fictional worlds were made to be just like the real world, we'd get bored of them pretty quickly. Let's see, what's in the real world?

• Ugly villains like Osama, Hussein, Hitler, Napoleon, and Gengis.
  Rape, Molestation, and Child Porn
  Boring Everyday Routines
  Wannabe Gangsters
  Real Gangsters
  Like, Dumb people who, like, say the word "like" in ,like, every sentence.
  Even dumber computers.

And what do the fictional worlds have that we don't?

• Human Flight
  Magic
  Advanced Technology
  Super-fast Action-packed battles, chases, etc.
  And Anything else your imagination is limited to

So, I dunno bout you guys, but fictional worlds are WAY better than the real world, and I bet I could find millions of people who'd agree with me. If they ever make a machine that puts you to sleep in a fictional world of your choosing, I'll be first in line.

In short:
Screw reality.
Yay realistic unreality.

 

[Rye]

FYI, my post before was pretty much sarcastic. :\ I think it's lame that you think it's better for a villain in a game to be unrealistic when you in fact give us these rigid outlines. If you say we can be unrealistic then we don't need these guidelines, at all. It's more realistic for a villain to have a meaning for what he/she does to a town rather than he/she does it for no reason. You seem to be saying "screw realism!" which means we shouldn't even try to make our villains sympathetic, as hey, who wanted realism?

I am just saying you should NOT chuck all realism out the window. I don't like playing or watching something where the villain can be hacked to pieces and still be alive with no good explanation. You don't need to be OMG TOTALLY REALISTIC, but you should still have some air of realism that doesn't turn the player off from the character because they are just too out there or are just plain annoying.

 

[KhaoticErase]

rye, rye, rye...

This tut is for the people who like villains, okay?
If you want to make villains like the ones in real life, who APPARENTLY don't have ANY reasons for doing bad things, then don't read a tut for fictional villains.
OR, you can make a villain with reasons who still attracts the audience.

Again, quit putting words in my mouth, like Andy6000. this theory is hard enough to explain as it is without you people messing with my head.

If you think you're trying to help, you're not. This tut was based on the opinions of the masses, not the tiny little cult known as rmxp.org.

 

[Rye]

Who said I didn't like villains? Now you're putting words into my mouth, don't be a hypocrite.

And if you're against any kind of critism of any kind, then why did you post it? Sure, it probably has helped, but what if someone is TRYING TO HELP YOU? I mean, to think that only villains who are so unrealistic it is blown out of proportion are good, you sir, have the potential to be a horrible and boring writer.

And I was not telling you to change this tutorial to include realistic villains. I was just pointing out things that you said that was contradictory and didn't make sense or people SHOULD NOT do when writing villains.

If you want to make villains like the ones in real life, who APPARENTLY don't have ANY reasons for doing bad things, then don't read a tut for fictional villains.

I never said that. I never said that real villains don't have things like that, in fact, if I were being a smart ass, there are no real villains, only different views of thinking. STOP putting words in my mouth, Seph. You apparently completely misunderstood my post.

What I said was basically this: You SHOULD NOT get rid of all realism when designing a villain for a fantasy/fictional story.

 

[KhaoticErase]

Wait a minute... Isn't that what I said two posts ago?

Oh, and sorry. I just came from a presentation where everyone kept pronouncing anime incorrectly, so I'm astronomically pissed. Sorry, for word-yelling.

Ah, and your quote by me was aimed at someone else, not you.

I already said that there were no real villains in my tut (above it, actually: Squall's quote). The "villains" are only coined that way due to their actions.

But basically, when I said "Screw reality, yay realistic unreality", I meant that villains and their powers and stuff should both be possible (for that world) and have a reason, while simultaneously being FAR cooler than the real world's badguys.


(I wonder how long it will take to get my messages clear to everyone)

 

[Rye]

Screw reality.

That is what you said. You did not say realism in villains was good, you said screw reality, which translates into "screw reality". =_=

 

[KhaoticErase]

But I ALSO said "Yay REALISTIC unreality", or don't you understand what I mean by that?

 

[Rye]

Do you know what a contradiction means?

IN this post: http://www.rmxp.org/forums/showpost.php?p=273901&postcount=78

You basically said this: realistic villains aren't as good as fictional villains because they can't fly and wield big swords. That was what my first sarcastic post was to. Then you decide to contradict yourself and say some realism is ok.

Now what am I saying: Pick your words better. Things get misinterpreted if you seemingly go back and forth about a subject. First, realism was baaadddd in villains, now it's ok. =_= Type more clearly!

 

[KhaoticErase]

Bad Realism=Bad
Good Realism=Good

Bad things like raping, being ugly, and killing for the heck of it=Bad

Good things like being really strong, good-looking, intelligent, and having good reasons=Good.

Clear enough?

Make villains as cool and as likeable as possible while keeping the event chain previously explained in tact.

 

[Rye]

So, if the good villains are...

Good things like being really strong, good-looking, intelligent, and having good reasons=Good.

Shouldn't they be the heroes? :>
Sometimes, I don't want to like the villain. I want to be happy kicking his ass.

People making villains! You don't have to make them likeable. You can make then UNDERSTANDABLE, but that isn't in the same idea as likeable. I can perfectly understand why let's take Andau from Master of the Wind, I can understand why he hates women. And I don't like him very much, I like kicking his ass. See, I can understand the WHY, but that doesn't mean I need to like him. In short: make an understandable villain. He/She doesn't have to be liked, but they should be understandable.

 

[Volrath]

This tut is for the people who like villains, okay?

This tut was based on the opinions of the masses, not the tiny little cult known as rmxp.org.

Statements like these are the reason you run into problems. You have got to stop making these huge generalizations. You can not speak for everyone at rmxp.org, let alone the masses. If someone challenges the statements you've made about what makes a good villain, of course you should defend them. BUT it's only asking for trouble if you start making statements like "Everyone likes this" or "The masses think this." Some villains are more popular than others, this is true, and that is why your new title is appropriate. However, defend your points with your own logic. Don't fall back on these unsupported generalizations. It's only gonna cause more trouble.

 

[LightAndMagic]

Bad things like raping, being ugly, and killing for the heck of it=Bad

Why cause you say so? If you're going to make such an outrageous point at least explain why. I have to agree with what Rye says, you most definately do not need to like a villian, and if your villian is so evil, is raping someone so far behind them?

And just because a character is ugly does not mean an audience can't sympathize with them.

 

[Brandonn]

Volrath: Agreed

Here's the basic basic problem...

The idea here is that, following these guidelines, you can make a villain the average player, Joe Schmo, will love. And the villain will be based on one of the more popular one's. So - since they work so well, if we follow the same mold, the one we make could have the same potential. Sure, I'll buy that. BUT not everyone liked those villains, and the people most bothered by this, I would assume don't like them - at least not the best. People like Rye and Volrath are quite a different breed (in a good way). Look at their projects, they like to think different then the rest. It just feel like one villain type is being labeled as the best. And in a world of opinions, this can't be true.

May I ask an honest question to you Sephiroth7734? Do you believe pure evil exists? I do, I'd like to know what you think.

This is why I ask. You say villains are doing what they do because they think what they are doing is right. But many villains know what they are doing is wrong, but don't care, because they will do what they want to get what they want. If you don't believe in pure evil, then this can't be true, any bad thing done by anyone is only ever because they think it is right, or they are mentally damaged in some way (crazy). I can guarantee this is NOT the case.

As for everything has a reason, I would lean toward that being true. But this is why, everything does have a reason. This is a technicality, based on the definition of the word, but I think it's true. The bully that picks on you at school, has a reason. Heres the thing though, not everything has to have a stated reason. If we see a villain that's a bully, we don't need to know why he/she choose that path, only that we'd better get out of they way.

If I make a villain, and at the time the player meets him, he's very pissed off, the player doesn't need to know why, it could be any number of things, but maybe all I want to get across is that he get mad allot, and very easily. I think having a reason for things can help us, but we don't have to tell every reason to the player.

Just some thoughts...

 

[KhaoticErase]

@Brandonn: No, I do not believe that pure evil exists, and pure-of-heart only means as good as you can possibly get. Everyone has a bit of darkness in them, and everyone has a bit of light in them.

What I'm trying to ask people, is to look at themselves and ask "Am I a villain? Would someone consider me a villain because my beliefs are different than their's? But I don't think my opinions are ill-based at all, so why would someone think this?"

I'm sure that in some way, there are people I've met who'd also think I was a villain, because of my angry disposition and hatred for the majority of humans. But I don't think I'm a villain; no one really does. I look at myself and I say "I'm not a villain! I hate prostitutes, drug addicts, alcoholics, and rapists! I hate racists, sexists, and those that are cruel to animals! How could anyone think I was a villain?"

@LightAndMagic: I never said ugly villains couldn't be sympathized with, just that attractive villains were more popular. Take FF9's Queen Brahne for example. Ugliest villain ever made, but I still cried during her death scene. This may sound weird, but she's one of my favorite villains.

And what the crap is up with even mentioning evil?! The whole point of the tut was to say that VILLAINS ARE NOT EVIL, they are only SEEN that way by everyone else because they don't understand their reasons, intentions, etc. Take Sirus from Dark Cloud 2. Every single NPC in the game talks about how evil and maniacal he is, when all he wanted was revenge on the humans for killing his only friend out of greed.

Oh, and if you don't think that rape is bad, I should call the police on you.

@Volrath: I'm not trying to speak for everyone, I'm combining the opinions of large groups. When I found that a very large group of people liked a certain villain (to the point of being very emotional), I'd include that villain in the tut's research.

@Rye: If you like "kicking the asses" of your favorite villains, then you're reading this tut for all the wrong reasons.

 

[The Cry of Fallen Angels]

I'm going to ask you to put your emotions and pride aside. If you can do that, try to read through the thread again. Sit back, get a cup of coffee or whatever, and think about what people posted, think about what you posted. Pick up a pen and a paper and put it in a logical scheme.

Simple excercise, reflection. It should give you a lot more insight in what's actually happening.

 

[LightAndMagic]

@LightAndMagic: I never said ugly villains couldn't be sympathized with, just that attractive villains were more popular. Take FF9's Queen Brahne for example. Ugliest villain ever made, but I still cried during her death scene. This may sound weird, but she's one of my favorite villains.

And what the crap is up with even mentioning evil?! The whole point of the tut was to say that VILLAINS ARE NOT EVIL, they are only SEEN that way by everyone else because they don't understand their reasons, intentions, etc. Take Sirus from Dark Cloud 2. Every single NPC in the game talks about how evil and maniacal he is, when all he wanted was revenge on the humans for killing his only friend out of greed.

Oh, and if you don't think that rape is bad, I should call the police on you.

A) Way to totally shove words in my mouth, cause I definately said rape is good. In your context you were saying how rape is something you shouldn't do with a villian, which is what I was disagreeing with. If you were to take it into the context that you just did with me, you pretty much equated being ugly to the act of rape. So don't try that shit.

B) SOME PEOPLE ARE EVIL. Get it out of your goddamn head that everyone is just some midguided individual who thinks what he's doing is for the greater good. Yes, some villians may think this way, and others will not. And even if they think what they are doing is right, does not mean that they are not evil. I could think it's totally right to stab someone that insulted me once (although that would clearly be a bit psychotic), still makes me a bad person. Just because they have a reason for what they're doing doesn't suddenly make them a moral person.

And just to use an example that you used before. Hitler. You said he was that way because he had a rough childhood. Which is debatable. Does his rough childhood excuse the action of killing six million Jews? Absolutely not. He is most definately worthy of being categorized as evil, once again, just because they have a "reason", doesn't make them necessarily moral or good.

C) Don't get me wrong, I like Dark Cloud 2, but, attempting to kill everyone because they lost a friend isn't exactly a moral thing to do. Can I understand why he did it? Most certainly. Does that make him good? Absolutely not. His actions, despite their reasoning are still evil, and just because he lost a friend certainly does not give him justification for what he did.

 

[KhaoticErase]

@TCoFA: I just may do that, but most of the people that have been arguing with me say the things they do only because they don't understand what I'M really trying to say, which I can't directly tell you. But here's a hint: Are you familiar with the term Revolution?

@LightAndMagic: I really don't think you understand what I'm trying to say, so let me go through this one simple step at a time.

1. Did Hitler do horrible things? Yes.
2. Does that make him evil? Yes.
3. Does everyone think he's evil? Most people do. (That includes me)
4. Did Hitler think he was evil? No.
5. Did Hitler think that what he was doing was for the good of the world? Most likely.
6. Did Hitler think he was the hero? Yes.
7. Did thousands of people revere him as a hero? Definitely.
8. People publicly referred to Hitler as being evil during his time. Did Hitler care? Yes. He didn't think he was evil at all, proclaimed that they were blasphemers, and had them arrested.
9. Does unknowingly being evil mean he'd do other bad things? Only if he believed it was for the good of the world.
10. Did Hitler want to do what he did? Probably, probably not. But if he truly believed that what he was doing was right, then he felt that, despite how wrong he knew it was, he had to.

Now let me ask you something. You said that even if you stabbed someone, it would make you a bad person. But really, WOULD you stab someone? And if you did, it could only have been if you truly believed they deserved it. Would that make you a bad person? ONLY in the eyes of the public's majority. Would YOU think that it was wrong? There are two ways to think:

1. You know in your heart that he deserved it, and believe that anyone else would've done the same.
2. You feel guilty about it, which proves that you are still, indeed, a good person, despite having done something wrong. Look at heroes! Most of the time, they kill more people than the villains do!!!

Let's look at yet another example: the movie Boondock Saints. In this movie, a notorious duo of ex-gangsters become serial killers, and go on a mission to hunt down and kill murderers, and murderers only. After killing large groups of them, they would give them proper burials using Irish prayers and rituals. However, despite being wanted serial killers, the public looked up to them! They revered these mass murderers as heroes for getting the mafia off the streets, yet the police still looked for them. So, were they good or bad?

 

[Rye]

Are you familiar with the term Revolution?

Oh, so modeling your villain like all the popular ones is a revolution? I don't think so bud. It is just settling for what the masses want which will get old and unoriginal very soon.

 

[Diedrupo]

If you want to get technical, the two main characters of Boondock Saints were "the good guys", though obviously their actions were debately immoral and quite evil. That the movie makes us think this is more of a failure of the movie than anything else.

Just because they don't think wrong of their actions, doesn't mean they aren't wrong in what they did.

 

[ArtBane]

If you want to get technical, the two main characters of Boondock Saints were "the good guys", though obviously their actions were debately immoral and quite evil. That the movie makes us think this is more of a failure of the movie than anything else.

Just because they don't think wrong of their actions, doesn't mean they aren't wrong in what they did.

A failure of the movie? What the hell are you talking about. Did you not watch the end credits where there is a reporter going around asking people about the saint's actions and getting mixed opinions? The point is you make your own opinion on what they did. There is never any proof that god actually gave them the right to go around "smiting" these mafioso. That ambiguity is part of what makes that movie so great. It would not be nearly as interesting if the movie made you just think one way.