Making Villains Similar to the Most Popular Ones

[mccdlibby]

Very, very informative. I consider my self to be pretty good at creating stories and characters, this was never really a problem for me. Although I am glad you created this tutorial, hopefully this will create an epidemic, in which everyone will add more personality to every aspect of their game.

Thank you. This was brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

 

[The Cry of Fallen Angels]

Okay, by "Ultimate Tutorial", I meant MY Ultimate Tutorial. Meaning this is an extremely huge project for me. And by "Cool" villain, I mean a villain that people can like immediately and stay liking.

OK, then we know that. I'd just rename it if I were you, they way it looks now doesn't seem to say what you meant.

The information in this tutorial is the result of much research upon the popularities of certain villains. I had to go to a bunch of fansites to see which villains were liked most, and build off their common traits.

And the bold are the words I don't want to hear. Just compare it with popular music, the most utter bullcrap goes commercial, get a barely dressed female in it, and boom, "zOMG 50 CENT IS TEH GANGSTA W LUV U". 50 cent, one of the very few rappers who fell over his words in a live concert.

I can't help it if you don't like Yu-Gi-Oh! I used Yami Malik as an example because he's an extremely popular villain, AND he is NOT always in "Sinister Mode", such as when he's talking about how his father abused him.

I barely even know "Yami", I just knew I hated him when I saw him, so didn't bother with him much more. But my comment was aimed at your writing, not the Yu-Gi-Oh series, as I indicated with the word regardless.

I never knew that the teacher chose the weapon for the character, but if the character even HAS a teacher, the story's writer can still pick the weapon regardless. Plus, the character may decide to use a different weapon despite what their teacher says.

You know why the barbarians were no match for Rome? They were self-trained, even though usually physically stronger, they were self-trained. Being good with a weapon while untrained requires immense talent, which appaerently, half the world seems to have in RPG's.
You mostly lined personality with choice of weapon. You can have someone who's physically immensly powerfull and constantly bragging about how he can crush your skull with a single finger, still prefer a light and fast weapon over a giant axe. Or even a handgun or magic. The reason is in the hands of the story writer.

When you mentioned "Empathy", you also said "when they've lost sanity". They HAVEN'T. That's what most of this tutorial is all about.

Read again, and think about what I could've meant.

Regardless of whether or not the Black/White Magic system is commonly used by FF, it doesn't change the idea that any spell could be classified as either.

Oh hell yes. Maybe if you're unimaginative and only use things like fire, fira, heal and esuna black/white is the only possibility, but even Final Fantasy has more than white and black. Spirit magic, summoning, etc. You make it sound like magic is one set thing. As magic does not actually exist, you can do many different things with it. People used to believe alchemists paid the devil to change lead into gold.

I never said that villains NEED a superpower. As stated, it could also be economical power, or if it's a school bully, popularity.

Once again, read again.

I realize you're trying to help, but I put four months of writing and organization into this tutorial. I know what's in it, and why.

Even if you have spent days on this thing, you can still improve and learn things.

In short, you never finish learning.

 

[KhaoticErase]

No I'm pretty sure every single villain he mentions is final fantasy. Oh and Yu Gi Oh. Can't forget Yu Gi Oh.

But wait?! What if you want to be creative and NOT create a villain to this apparent strict set of guidelines that applies universally?! Blasphemy!

Also why in the fuck does waving your arms in elaborate gestures make you sinister? Not to mention the only appearance you describe is BISHOUJO or whatever, because god knows I can't take a villain seriously unless he has the body of a fucking 15 year old girl.

This 'guide' honestly describes ONE good villain (sephiroth), but makes a mockery of the word guide by only doing it once. I suggest you look up Volrath's writing on the same subject and take it seriously into account.

Wow. LOT'S of people taking this the wrong way!

Once again, these sections are based on currently existing villains. Queen Brahne is a popular villain (believe it or not), but guess who's more popular? Beatrix. Know why?

Oh, and I did read Volrath's tutorial. But he left out a lot of technical stuff, and it felt like he was skipping things.

How `bout you people actually try to comprehend WHY I wrote what I did before you jump to conclusions.... again.

P.S. I also mentioned a Silent Hill villain.

P.S.2: Swearing is not necessary.

 

[Diedrupo]

The irony in all this is that you pretty much insulted Volrath by posting this in his earlier guide on villains:

http://www.rmxp.org/forums/showpost.php?p=140785&postcount=9

 

[ShadowOD]

Well Thanks Seph this tut helped ^_^

No need to go all out attack on the guy just because he done a tut on Villans which some popular guy done before...

 

[Andy6000]

Wow. LOT'S of people taking this the wrong way!

Once again, these sections are based on currently existing villains. Queen Brahne is a popular villain (believe it or not), but guess who's more popular? Beatrix. Know why?

Know who's also a popular villain? Shredder. Know why? Wait no, scratch that, know what he's not? He's not a BISHOUJO. He is a guy, wearing armor, and a purple cape, and he has claws. He does not need to be skinny and yet incredibly strong to be a good villain.

EDIT: oh and Magneto is pretty cool too. But hey, maybe you don't know these villains because they're not from final fantasy or yu gi oh or some other japanese creation. Wait I've thought of a villain from a Japanese show, King Crocodile from One Piece, he's huge. And he's got a hookhand. He's cool. And he's not bishoujo.

Oh, and I did read Volrath's tutorial. But he left out a lot of technical stuff, and it felt like he was skipping things.

Skipping things? Skipping things like maybe not having more than one villain described? Sometimes it's good not to hand someone a villain on a silver platter. Maybe some people would like to actually make something creative rather than just pick and choose out of like 30 guidelines you make.

How `bout you people actually try to comprehend WHY I wrote what I did before you jump to conclusions.... again.

Yes, why... Because you feel like you know everything about villains? And that all villains should be like that one villain you describe?

P.S. I also mentioned a Silent Hill villain.

Wow. One villain that's not final fantasy or yu gi oh. So amazingly impressed right now. Your obvious expertise in villainy astounds me.

P.S.2: Swearing is not necessary.

Oh no, he said two swear words. I didn't use them this time and I think I managed just as well. Happy?

 

[Volrath]

There isn't really much to be gained by comparing the two tutorials. I was not insulted by the comment Seph left in my thread. He merely said he felt confident about villains and needed guidance regarding lead characters and supporting characters. Eventually, I wrote tutorials on both of those subjects and hopefully they were of some use.

A debate about whether or not I "skipped" certain aspects of villain creation strikes me as irrelevant...as I never set out to write THE definitive guide to antagonists. My piece was more a recollection about my own creative process and lessons I had learned after a few years of writing RPGs.

For the purposes of this tutorial, I do think it would have been helpful to expand the scope of villains included...bring in some characters from literature or film, perhaps. But hey, if you're looking for that Final Fantasy feel, he certainly has cataloged a lot of those traits.

 

[KhaoticErase]

Thank you SO MUCH, Volrath. Finally! A mod that didn't try to word-kill me AND offered great suggestions!

And Andy. Shredder is, of course, NOT a bishoujo because he's not a girl. He's a BISHOUNEN, and yes, many fangirls find him hot.

I also used two Metal Gear Solid villains. Happy, yet?

I was also planning on making an extra section full of villain examples. I'm open to suggestions if you'd like to contribute. I'll use Shredder if it'll calm you down.

And what's with this weird thing you keep saying about how the entire tutorial is based on Sephiroth?? I only mention him twice, and if that were true, that would give him several split-personalities.

And I hate to tell you this (actually, that's a lie), but a villain cannot possibly be a villain unless they fall into the categories of at least ONE major section of this tutorial.

I don't know if you've got a grudge against me or something, but knock it off.

P.S. You're probably mad by now, so re-read this post's fourth paragraph.

 

[Andy6000]

Yeah I can't say I don't have a grudge against you, because you keep posting stuff that does nothing but... Well, make me annoyed I gotta say!

also yes thank you volrath, if you read a little bit though... Let me quote it for you: "For the purposes of this tutorial, I do think it would have been helpful to expand the scope of villains included...bring in some characters from literature or film, perhaps. But hey, if you're looking for that Final Fantasy feel, he certainly has cataloged a lot of those traits." DINGDINGDING

This happens to be exactly what I'm saying. Your 'ultimate guide to villains' is really an 'ultimate guide to final fantasy villains'. It's a good guide to make one variety of villain. There are several, SEVERAL kinds of villains. YOU may think that every villain falls into one of these categories you describe (though honestly, this is complete bullshit as your 'appearance' section describes bishi and that is IT, and not every villain is a fucking bishi or whatever), but they do not.

My overall point: and here I am not trying to be angry and insult you (note that before this point, yes, I am writing honest criticism and working in insults to your intelligence and ability), this guide needs to describe more villains. if you would maybe admit that there's more than one type of villain, that bishoujo is ONE DIRECTION that you CAN go, maybe some critics would back off. The way you present this guide is that it's practically an ultimatum, and that is why people are out to get you about it. So there's A. admit this guide isn't an end-all guide without just saying 'MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK AT WHY I WROTE IT', or B. work on expanding the ideas in this guide. You said you used villains from Metal Gear, use Solidus Snake, an older male that doesn't exactly strike me as bishoujo.

Feel free to disregard this as you've been doing the whole time though.

EDIT: oh I forgot this.

"Bishie" is a slang term, short for the Japanese words "bishounen" and "bishoujo", both meaning "beautiful youth". "Bishie" characters can easily be described as "elegant" and "romantic".

Explain to me how Shredder is a beautiful youth if you would PLEASE. How is he super sexy? How is he elegant and romantic?

 

[KhaoticErase]

Explain to me how Shredder is a beautiful youth if you would PLEASE. How is he super sexy? How is he elegant and romantic?

I have NO idea. Ask the millions of fangirls; they're the ones who called him that.

And I've only played MGS, none of the sequels. This Solidus person you speak of... unless it's a girl, he wouldn't be bishoujo, he'd be bishounen. I'll look into it, though.

And of course I realize that there are many kinds of villains. You think my life revolves around Final Fantasy? I mean, how many FF villains do you know that kidnapped and raped someone? (as described in the Kidnapping section) I only used FF villains as frequent examples because they're more widely known on this website, making it easier for readers to comprehend the theories.

P.S. Give me an example of a villain you don't think fits into the categories listed in my tutorial. And don't try to say you're proving me wrong about anything, either, I just want to see something.

 

[Andy6000]

I have NO idea. Ask the millions of fangirls; they're the ones who called him that.

And I've only played MGS, none of the sequels. This Solidus person you speak of... unless it's a girl, he wouldn't be bishoujo, he'd be bishounen. I'll look into it, though.

And of course I realize that there are many kinds of villains. You think my life revolves around Final Fantasy? I mean, how many FF villains do you know that kidnapped and raped someone? (as described in the Kidnapping section) I only used FF villains as frequent examples because they're more widely known on this website, making it easier for readers to comprehend the theories.

P.S. Give me an example of a villain you don't think fits into the categories listed in my tutorial. And don't try to say you're proving me wrong about anything, either, I just want to see something.

Considering you think Shredder is a beautiful youth that's both elegant and romantic, I don't think I can prove much to you. How about Magneto? Is he a bishounen (SORRY ABOUT SCREWING UP THE GENDERS)?

Your appearance section. Fix it to something that doesn't say bishounen and then bam, everything is better.

 

[KhaoticErase]

WOAH! I never said that I thought Shredder was hot. Weren't you listening? I'm a GUY, dude.

And yes, I actually personally know a few female otaku who call pretty much every X-man bishie, including magneto.

Bishie is not my opinion. It's a written set of rules that's used by the majority of manga artists when creating characters (not just villains). And believe it or not, even Kefka is also widely considered to be... bishie (eww).

I think I've said this before, but this tutorial is not based on how villains SHOULD be. It's based on how villain fans EXPECT villains to be. Personally, I'd probably never like a villain who kidnapped and raped someone. But hey, look at the fangirls. It's weird, and creepy, yes. But half of this tutorial is based on villains I don't even like all that much, like Liquid Snake (who is also tagged as bishie, by the way. Solid S. too).

 

[Volrath]

I think I've said this before, but this tutorial is not based on how villains SHOULD be. It's based on how villain fans EXPECT villains to be.

I know I've been playing the role of peacemaker here, but I really can't let that fly. Talking about expectations regarding anything is very murky territory...much too subjective to make a judgment like that.

I'm a villain fan....and what I expect is a villain who has presence. Sometimes I want complexity, sometimes I don't. There are times when a one-dimensional adversary like Shredder is fun. He's got a presence...a very humorous one if you remember the old cartoon. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a more detailed, interesting enemy.

However, my expectations are never centered around appearance. I honestly don't care if a villain is "Bishie" or not...or whether fangirls classify someone as "bishie" or not. He could be a talking eggplant for all I care...he just better have a solid presence.

 

[Andy6000]

WOAH! I never said that I thought Shredder was hot. Weren't you listening? I'm a GUY, dude.

And yes, I actually personally know a few female otaku who call pretty much every X-man bishie, including magneto.

Bishie is not my opinion. It's a written set of rules that's used by the majority of manga artists when creating characters (not just villains). And believe it or not, even Kefka is also widely considered to be... bishie (eww).

I think I've said this before, but this tutorial is not based on how villains SHOULD be. It's based on how villain fans EXPECT villains to be. Personally, I'd probably never like a villain who kidnapped and raped someone. But hey, look at the fangirls. It's weird, and creepy, yes. But half of this tutorial is based on villains I don't even like all that much, like Liquid Snake (who is also tagged as bishie, by the way. Solid S. too).

God, since apparently everything is bishie, how is telling someone to make a villain bishie telling them ANYTHING? "Make him ubiquitous!"

Also yeah it's based on how (this part is important) final fantasy fans EXPECT villains to be. Personally, I dislike Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia or whoever, and especially Kuja. I don't like the way they look, the reasonings they use, etc etc. I'm a fan of villains, villains that are sinister, diabolical, cruel, and evil. Luca Blight from Suikoden 2 was pretty cool. He slaughtered villages and engineered a fake attack against his own troops (and a militia made up of young recruits to boot), just to shoot a peace treaty down, pretty diabolical there. But I dunno, I kind of forgot what you wrote, so I'm just going to latch on to your appearance section.

Please for the love of god fix it. You could have it say something like 'use colors symbolically, a villain wearing pink is not as foreboding as one wearing black, and he doesn't look as mean as one that's practically on fire', just... The bishie thing is killing me. To me, bishie means the 15 year old girl body people, like Rurouni Kenshin. And I like Kenshin, but I want people to look like his old master (the huge buff guy), not the scrawny main character. Hell, even shi shio was pretty skinny, and he was apparently strong enough to strangle someone in the air. I think a lot of people share my conception of what bishie means, rather than just a random fan-girl calling.

(oh and while we're throwing out random names, Juggernaut. He's huge. Does he still qualify as bishie?)

 

[reywing]

Thank you for this guide, Sephiroth7734. I found it worth my time

This has been said already but i also found it tedious to keep pressing "show". you're the first person i've seen to do this though maybe it'll catch on

i think some more information in the pre-face about why you chose to write in certain ways could help ... like why you chose to use more examples from FF and anime, why you titled it ULTIMATE/COOL, or where you're basically coming from. ya kno so we don't make assumptions... though, as readers, we shouldn't be.

lastly, you say NEVER a couple times and i'd have to disagree with you on that. as long as the third major crux, the audience, is drawn into the plot and feel for their heroes to win, ANYTHING is possible. of course, it would be a lot harder to do (like using white magic for the major villain/end boss) but it'd be original and/or unusual.

NEVER (imho) is more like RULEBOOK-type stuff but your document is a GUIDE.

besides those things, i found much guidance from it. i like the references you wrote about stereotypes and i will find this guide handy to refer back to. gj.

 

[LordEliwood0009]

This was very amazing, and it was worth the wait for me.

Now I have a question about a certain TV series/video game: In Megaman NT Warrior/Megaman Battle Network, would Bass be classified as a Sub Villian? In the games, you could not fight him almost until after the game almost all the time. I do know that the plotmasters in the games were either Dr. Wily or Dr. Regal (what is with dr. in the Megaman games?).

As far as I can get from the guide, Bass would probably fall under Sub Villain since Bass is hardly tougher than the Final Bosses (Except maybe EXE/BN 4, his SP form did more harm than Duo V2 and was way faster. Darkness Overload hurts with 600 DMG [over half your possible max HP of 1000 without HP+ programs in the Navicust])

 

[DestinMancer]

You should make one for heroes.

 

[KhaoticErase]

You should make one for heroes.

Wish I could, but my knowledge on heroes is pretty teeny. They always seem to end up being "pure-of-heart" in most cases, and lack personal depth. And since good-written villains are technically pure-of-heart themselves, well...

The only heroes I've ever been able to truly connect with emotionally, like to the point of actually crying, are Cloud and Squall. But maybe I should do some research on heroes. There's probably something I'm missing, even with my own heroes. I've always wondered why heroes are more popular than villains, so maybe now I'll find out.

Of course, it'll be a LONG time. This tut alone took me four months. How long would a tut on a completely different species of character take me?

 

[KhaoticErase]

OKAY! I've got it! Apparently, it's the title of the tutorial that screws everything up, not the contents!

So, how are these for some new names? THESE tell the world exactly what the tut is for:

1. Guide to Making Emotionally-Appealing Villains.
2. Guide to Making Villains Similar to the Most Popular Ones.
3. Guide to Making Villains with Personal Depth.

Whatcha think?


@Andy6000: the villains of which you speak sound like stereotypical villains who are evil just because the writer wanted them to be. This is a tut for making pure-of-heart villains, and if you don't understand what I mean by that, read it again. (Kenshin is bishie, Juggernaut is not. Oh, and hate to break it you, but some huge characters are seen as bishie as well, just not the ugly ones)

 

[Volrath]

Titles 1 and 3 are a definite No, I'd say. Number 2 could probably work.