KhaoticErase
Member
Rye;274932 said:
Not what I meant. See? I knew you wouldn't understand. Don't try to guess.
Making Villains Similar to the Most Popular Ones
- Thread starter KhaoticErase
- Start date
Not what I meant. See? I knew you wouldn't understand. Don't try to guess.
The reason I brought up evil is, there are many a people that believe that they are mostly good, and every thing else is mostly good, and evil is only misguided goodness. Well I don't, I think evil is real, I think people are mostly bad, and I would say the laws of the world weren't made to stop anyone from doing something they might have though of doing - rather, to say these people shouldn't be doing the things they are already doing - lets make it a law, and lets make a punishment. Another example is this - our number one drive is selfishness. You can argue against that, but you won't convince me any other way. I think by thinking the way you do, you are limiting the types of villains you can create, and saying the other villains are actually misinterpreted by EVERYONE and actually fall into one of your categories. This of course is not true.
So what did I just say? Your way of thinking is limiting your perspective.
Look, this is your villain guide, but I would say that this is how to make a "Sephiroth7734" villain. Just like they have guides of how to make different art styles - but they won't claim it's the best way to make art in general, they may claim it's the best way they make THEIR STYLE of art.
I like that you made this, and I support you adding to the many resources.
These 2 things I think are the issues that are starting all the other issues.
If you want to make a tut Representative of the main fan base, you can't do it right by research alone, you'd also need voting, and input, and revisions, and submissions from others. Other wise, your the villain deciding what YOU think is the best based on what YOU think shows up the most. And that just turns it back into "Sephiroth7734"Villain guide
So what did I just say? Your way of thinking is limiting your perspective.
Look, this is your villain guide, but I would say that this is how to make a "Sephiroth7734" villain. Just like they have guides of how to make different art styles - but they won't claim it's the best way to make art in general, they may claim it's the best way they make THEIR STYLE of art.
I like that you made this, and I support you adding to the many resources.
These 2 things I think are the issues that are starting all the other issues.
If you want to make a tut Representative of the main fan base, you can't do it right by research alone, you'd also need voting, and input, and revisions, and submissions from others. Other wise, your the villain deciding what YOU think is the best based on what YOU think shows up the most. And that just turns it back into "Sephiroth7734"Villain guide
KhaoticErase
Member
@Brandonn: So you're saying I should just call it "Sephiroth7734's Villain Guide"?
Hahaha... Very well. That line's too kawaii to ignore.
I'm trying to make everyone more understanding of everyone, not just fictional villains. Basically, it's like a world peace step. If we can all learn to understand just what cause us to do bad things, maybe we can put an end to it.
I used to think that there were people who really were pure evil. But then I would ask, "How did they become that way? Was it their fault? Do they have any control over it? Do they really think that what they're doing is wrong?"
Ignore the tut for now; that's for making cool villains that fangirls will drool over, but this conversation has gone much further than I expected it to. Now, I'm spilling my theories on good and evil all over the place.
I'm starting to ask myself if evil even exists. Is evil just the word we use to refer to things we believe are bad? A person kills someone out of self-defense. Others may defend that person's right, while others may instantly label him evil because he sinned.
Doing bad things doesn't necessarily make you evil, because everyone has their own beliefs on right and wrong. Personally, I think this is sick and redundant, but someone might believe that rape is good because it "helps to populate the Earth", or they might think that murder is good because they could go to Heaven early.
Doing bad things with good intentions. Does that really make it bad?
And what of those who are supposedly automatically evil because they do bad things because they "feel like it" (Selfishness, Greed, Adrenaline Rush, etc.)? What CAUSED them to think that way? What told them that doing those things was okay as long as they get away with it?
Quotes from a movie I recently saw:
A girl is in a Police Dep. because she was caught stealing files from the Principal's Office.
Principal: "Why were trying to steal my files?"
Girl: "Because what you're doing is wrong! I had to stop you! And I'd do it again, only..."
Principal: "Only what?"
Girl: "... I'd try not to get caught."
There you have it. This girl deliberately broke the law, knowing that it was wrong, in order to stop a criminal. She was still arrested and fined, despite her good intentions. Is that right? Is that justice? In her eyes, no. In everyone else's, yes. Know why? Because they didn't understand what was actually going on.
And that brings me back to that word: Understand. If we can learn to understand the reasonings that "villains" (note the quote marks) have, we may be able to prevent them from doing bad things ever again.
Because if doing bad things makes you a villain, then we are ALL villains, and we should be able to understand the feelings and beliefs of those around us... if we would just open our eyes.
Rye;274958 said:
Hahaha... Very well. That line's too kawaii to ignore.
I'm trying to make everyone more understanding of everyone, not just fictional villains. Basically, it's like a world peace step. If we can all learn to understand just what cause us to do bad things, maybe we can put an end to it.
I used to think that there were people who really were pure evil. But then I would ask, "How did they become that way? Was it their fault? Do they have any control over it? Do they really think that what they're doing is wrong?"
Ignore the tut for now; that's for making cool villains that fangirls will drool over, but this conversation has gone much further than I expected it to. Now, I'm spilling my theories on good and evil all over the place.
I'm starting to ask myself if evil even exists. Is evil just the word we use to refer to things we believe are bad? A person kills someone out of self-defense. Others may defend that person's right, while others may instantly label him evil because he sinned.
Doing bad things doesn't necessarily make you evil, because everyone has their own beliefs on right and wrong. Personally, I think this is sick and redundant, but someone might believe that rape is good because it "helps to populate the Earth", or they might think that murder is good because they could go to Heaven early.
Doing bad things with good intentions. Does that really make it bad?
And what of those who are supposedly automatically evil because they do bad things because they "feel like it" (Selfishness, Greed, Adrenaline Rush, etc.)? What CAUSED them to think that way? What told them that doing those things was okay as long as they get away with it?
Quotes from a movie I recently saw:
A girl is in a Police Dep. because she was caught stealing files from the Principal's Office.
Principal: "Why were trying to steal my files?"
Girl: "Because what you're doing is wrong! I had to stop you! And I'd do it again, only..."
Principal: "Only what?"
Girl: "... I'd try not to get caught."
There you have it. This girl deliberately broke the law, knowing that it was wrong, in order to stop a criminal. She was still arrested and fined, despite her good intentions. Is that right? Is that justice? In her eyes, no. In everyone else's, yes. Know why? Because they didn't understand what was actually going on.
And that brings me back to that word: Understand. If we can learn to understand the reasonings that "villains" (note the quote marks) have, we may be able to prevent them from doing bad things ever again.
Because if doing bad things makes you a villain, then we are ALL villains, and we should be able to understand the feelings and beliefs of those around us... if we would just open our eyes.
Edofighter
Member
Sephiroth7734;274974 said:
That really made me laugh :*)
Evil is however not always an opnion. For instance, if someone steals something something from a shop, while he/she's got enough cash in their pocket to buy it, but they steal it anyway just for the thrill and for saving some money, then that's evil, and after some thinking, if not instantly they'll know that.
People don't always think before they take actions! If everyone would think before doing something, our soceity would be a LOT better.
If you honestly feel that there is no such thing as evil and that villains don't really exist, what's the point of you writing this tutorial? You'd benefit more from drafting a character-creating tutorial - which would include oodles more information, among other things.
I'm starting to feel confused, and, even worse, starting to get the impression that you're more confused than I am.
Your tutorial went from ultimate villain guide, to a guide to a good villain, to the guide to most popular villains, to the guide to most popular Japanese RPG villains, and finally to a "cool villain that girls will swoon over" guide. All the while, you're telling us that you don't believe that a villain can exist, and that a villain is essentially just a misunderstood person - which, I suppose, turns your guide into a guide on building a misunderstood powerful person.
You've provided us with a masked opinion piece - i.e. interpretation of what "most people" find popular- not a table of raw data that we ourselves draw conclusions from. Talking about characterization and personality is more art then science, and we can't help but bring our own ideas, concepts and preferences into it.
And throughout this, you've changed the intended audience from everyone, to those that struggle with making villains, to those that want to create the most popular villain, and finally to those who agree with you in that there is no such thing as a villain.
I won't comment on your theories about evil and lack thereof. This isn't the place for it. But I will remind you that you've posted a very specific guide to something you essentially don't even believe in. Any attempt to offer constructive criticism was brushed off completely because it doesn't fit your theory of good and evil.
If I may offer a piece of advice, I'd say that you would be much better off writing something about the philosophy behind evil and how it can be a matter of perspective. An actual opinion piece like that won't be presented as fact (like a tutorial on building villains is, for example) and it won't feel like there's information missing.
I'm starting to feel confused, and, even worse, starting to get the impression that you're more confused than I am.
Your tutorial went from ultimate villain guide, to a guide to a good villain, to the guide to most popular villains, to the guide to most popular Japanese RPG villains, and finally to a "cool villain that girls will swoon over" guide. All the while, you're telling us that you don't believe that a villain can exist, and that a villain is essentially just a misunderstood person - which, I suppose, turns your guide into a guide on building a misunderstood powerful person.
You've provided us with a masked opinion piece - i.e. interpretation of what "most people" find popular- not a table of raw data that we ourselves draw conclusions from. Talking about characterization and personality is more art then science, and we can't help but bring our own ideas, concepts and preferences into it.
And throughout this, you've changed the intended audience from everyone, to those that struggle with making villains, to those that want to create the most popular villain, and finally to those who agree with you in that there is no such thing as a villain.
I won't comment on your theories about evil and lack thereof. This isn't the place for it. But I will remind you that you've posted a very specific guide to something you essentially don't even believe in. Any attempt to offer constructive criticism was brushed off completely because it doesn't fit your theory of good and evil.
If I may offer a piece of advice, I'd say that you would be much better off writing something about the philosophy behind evil and how it can be a matter of perspective. An actual opinion piece like that won't be presented as fact (like a tutorial on building villains is, for example) and it won't feel like there's information missing.
Sephiroth7734 said:
No one believes that about rape. The only time I can imagine that even being a conceivable thought is if the whole population of the world was gone and all that was left was a man and a woman and the woman refused to have sex to keep the species going. Honestly, where do you come up with stuff like that.
KhaoticErase
Member
ArtBane;275005 said:
Just an example. A weird one.
@Lunarea: The tut is for the characters originally seen by the audience as being a villain. they're not really villains, the writer and heroes of the story that see them that way. And even though they're not actually villains, when it comes to marketing, they're the story's "official villain".
I kind of feel the need to post here again, so bear with me...
Okay... So. I'm hardly going to touch on the topic at hand at all for this post (until the end), I'm just going to hand out some advice... You've done something right before, and I've personally seen to it it meted out results in kind. I sent you a PM back basically being as mean as I was originally in this thread, and because you didn't feel the need to defend yourself to the masses, you replied WELL. You didn't try to say I was putting words in your mouth, you didn't fall back on 'EVERYONE LIKES THESE VILLAINS SO I'M RIGHT'. And how did I reply? I didn't at first, but then later I came into this topic and made that last post. Did I rip you to shreds? No, I even gave you a slight bit of defense.
THINK ABOUT IT. I am probably the most hostile person on this forum to condescending bullshit that I disagree with, there's honestly not much more that angers me, and yet there, I was nice, JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE RELATIVELY POLITE BEFORE. I can honestly say the same thing will happen (or better yet, that it better fucking happen) if you take the time to read, and respond in kind to the people criticizing you now. Respond to what they're saying about the topic, not to what they're saying ABOUT YOU. This topic will be just SO MUCH nicer if you even acknowledge others' opinions, even if you don't take the time to work them into your original post (though you should).
In conclusion... Stop being so whiny and defensive. Your tutorial has problems, even for the oh-so variable objective you're aiming it towards. Work on them, take the criticism, and for god's sake, take the time to read your post after you write it, and think about whether or not it will just generate more needless diatribes against you.
-----------------------------------------------
ACTUAL CRITICISM TIME: Pure evil exists just fine... Or more accurately it can fit in an abstract and perceptual stage. Sin from Final Fantasy X. Er, I actually mean Yu Yevon.
NOTE: do NOT read if you have not played Final Fantasy X to the end.
Yu Yevon exists permanently inside his armor, constantly ravaging the world for it's own safety and longevity. You don't learn anything about Yu Yevon, you don't even know WHY having his armor makes him practically immortal, or even if it does. He just DOES IT. THAT, is evil. It isn't evil to him, but he is outside our plane or perception, he isn't a human, he didn't have a troubled childhood to make him angry at the world, he is just there. You can say that makes him a weak villain, but I would disagree. I'd write more but I kind of want to go do something else.
Andy6000":30dowcnc said:
Okay... So. I'm hardly going to touch on the topic at hand at all for this post (until the end), I'm just going to hand out some advice... You've done something right before, and I've personally seen to it it meted out results in kind. I sent you a PM back basically being as mean as I was originally in this thread, and because you didn't feel the need to defend yourself to the masses, you replied WELL. You didn't try to say I was putting words in your mouth, you didn't fall back on 'EVERYONE LIKES THESE VILLAINS SO I'M RIGHT'. And how did I reply? I didn't at first, but then later I came into this topic and made that last post. Did I rip you to shreds? No, I even gave you a slight bit of defense.
THINK ABOUT IT. I am probably the most hostile person on this forum to condescending bullshit that I disagree with, there's honestly not much more that angers me, and yet there, I was nice, JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE RELATIVELY POLITE BEFORE. I can honestly say the same thing will happen (or better yet, that it better fucking happen) if you take the time to read, and respond in kind to the people criticizing you now. Respond to what they're saying about the topic, not to what they're saying ABOUT YOU. This topic will be just SO MUCH nicer if you even acknowledge others' opinions, even if you don't take the time to work them into your original post (though you should).
In conclusion... Stop being so whiny and defensive. Your tutorial has problems, even for the oh-so variable objective you're aiming it towards. Work on them, take the criticism, and for god's sake, take the time to read your post after you write it, and think about whether or not it will just generate more needless diatribes against you.
-----------------------------------------------
ACTUAL CRITICISM TIME: Pure evil exists just fine... Or more accurately it can fit in an abstract and perceptual stage. Sin from Final Fantasy X. Er, I actually mean Yu Yevon.
NOTE: do NOT read if you have not played Final Fantasy X to the end.
Yu Yevon exists permanently inside his armor, constantly ravaging the world for it's own safety and longevity. You don't learn anything about Yu Yevon, you don't even know WHY having his armor makes him practically immortal, or even if it does. He just DOES IT. THAT, is evil. It isn't evil to him, but he is outside our plane or perception, he isn't a human, he didn't have a troubled childhood to make him angry at the world, he is just there. You can say that makes him a weak villain, but I would disagree. I'd write more but I kind of want to go do something else.
ArtBane;274940 said:
I did make my opinion. And my opinion is that the movie failed to make the protagonists sympathetic in any way because they were basically going around taking justice into their own hands for no real reason. You're being way overly-defensive of that movie. :P
I don't think it's necessary to state "in my opinion" after every sentence when I'm talking about something. By default of me saying "a failure of the movie", i'm stating an opinion.
And that one last scene with the reporter getting people's opinions suddenly justifies the rest of the movie? I don't think so. If i'm disgusted by the entirety of the movie prior to that scene, why should I suddenly go "Oh, that changes everything!" at that scene?
I'm aware that Boondock Saints has a large cult following. But it's mostly comprised of people who somehow managed to find sympathy in the characters' actions. Perhaps they think of the world in a purely black and white manner, and thus the actions of "Heroes" who kill "badguys" who haven't don't anything to justify their fates, seems like good ol' fashioned entertainment.
Not that this changes what I said. The characters are still the "good guys" of the movie despite actions that would make them appear evil/wrong.
KhaoticErase
Member
Actually, Yunalesca (Medusa-girl at Zanarkand) explains that Yu Yevon has no conscious thought over his actions. His one and only thought is summoning,which is why you have to fight Aeons before fighting him. Sin is also in unintelligible creature because it's made of darkness, but only the darkness that comes into our hearts when we THINK we're right, but not. In truth, Seymour was the game's only actual badguy, but in lue with my tut, Seymour only wanted everyone dead because he experienced death and gained power by refusing to die, so he thought he could give this power to everyone by having them undergo the same process.
Crystalgate
Member
I'm not sure, but I think you somewhere implied that everyone has their view on what is good and bad. Regardless, that is pretty much the case. If you create an antagonist that more than 90% view as a bad person, it means exactly that, the majority see that character as a bad person. An antagonist that is a bad person would get the villain tag. You can't really say that that character isn't a villain, 90%+ views him/her as so. Granted, that character wouldn't universally be a villain, but neither would that character universally not be a villain.Sephiroth7734;275013 said:
If I speak of villains, I would speak of what I see as villains. If I see a character as a villain then that means there is such a thing as a villain for me. It also means that I will reject the statement that there is no such a thing as a villain.
KhaoticErase
Member
Exactly! YOU, as an individual, see someone as a villain because they've done horrible things. But what if that person had a good reason? You don't know what those reasons are, so you assume him to be a villain.
So you see? Your lack of understanding that person leads you to believe they're a villain based on your judgement of his actions.
So you see? Your lack of understanding that person leads you to believe they're a villain based on your judgement of his actions.
Damn it's been a long time since I've played that game, probably shouldn't have used it as an example...
So I'll just make a general point, since I just spent like 3 minutes writing a rambling post that in retrospect wasn't really about anything. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. If you look at the villain through the eyes of god (yourself, the creator of the villain), pretty much no villain is evil, because he's not 'in control' of his actions so much as he reacts to outside stimuli, that of course also isn't 'in control' because it's reacting, reacting, etc. Where do we draw the line? Do we say evil should be defined by the players view of the villain? The character's?
All I'm saying is that most people are defining evil by action rather than reaction. The baseline of morality applies universally, even if the villain has some outside reason, he still falls within the player's views of morality and is thus evil, even IF he's understandable. When he's understandable to the point that you AGREE with his reasoning, then your villain has gone to far. What the hell are you fighting this guy for?
EDIT: missed the boat it seems. (also stay on this track, your post in response to mine was about the criticism, not about me or you, so thumbs up)
So I'll just make a general point, since I just spent like 3 minutes writing a rambling post that in retrospect wasn't really about anything. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. If you look at the villain through the eyes of god (yourself, the creator of the villain), pretty much no villain is evil, because he's not 'in control' of his actions so much as he reacts to outside stimuli, that of course also isn't 'in control' because it's reacting, reacting, etc. Where do we draw the line? Do we say evil should be defined by the players view of the villain? The character's?
All I'm saying is that most people are defining evil by action rather than reaction. The baseline of morality applies universally, even if the villain has some outside reason, he still falls within the player's views of morality and is thus evil, even IF he's understandable. When he's understandable to the point that you AGREE with his reasoning, then your villain has gone to far. What the hell are you fighting this guy for?
EDIT: missed the boat it seems. (also stay on this track, your post in response to mine was about the criticism, not about me or you, so thumbs up)
KhaoticErase
Member
YES!!!!!!!! YESYESYESYES!!!!!
Andy6000, that is absolutely correct! Hopefully some people will read your post, because you seem to have worded it better than I have.
Andy6000, that is absolutely correct! Hopefully some people will read your post, because you seem to have worded it better than I have.
Crystalgate
Member
That I'm not so sure of. Let's say that I see someone do something horrible and assume him to be a villain. Let's then say that I later find out about that person's reason. In that case two things can happen.Sephiroth7734;275045 said:
1) I still see him as a villain.
2) I stop seeing him as a villain.
If it's the first case, then it wasn't my lack of understanding the reasons that made me assume he's a villain, I would have done so even if I knew the reasons from the very start.
LightAndMagic
Member
Sephiroth7734;274931 said:
Thanks for the contradiction, despite your many assurances that:
Sephiroth7734 said:
you admitted that some are. Thank you, that was my whole point.
KhaoticErase
Member
@LightAndMagic: Ugh, you STILL don't understand.
LightAndMagic
Member
I understand perfectly. You're saying it's all based on perception, and how we see the "villian" may nto be correct. It doesn't stop the fact that you totally contradicted yourself.
KhaoticErase
Member
Stop saying that! I'm not contradicting myself because I'm explaining multiple perspectives at once! Do you know how hard that is to do?