God Condemns Two-Thirds of World to Hell

[RobF]

I would just like to comment on the whole "Hitler going to Heaven" complaint that I hear often...

To claim that it's unfair for Hitler to go to Heaven if he accepts Christ on his deathbed while the sweet little old lady down the street goes to Hell because the never did is to miss the point of Christianity...

#1 - Salvation is not about fairness. If that were so, nobody would get into Heaven. It was humanity that seperated itself from God and it is only through the attribute of God's mercy that ANY are able to be saved.

#2 - Hitler's sins (just like any other human who has ever lived) were against God and God alone. Therefore He is the only one who is in position to judge. I know there are instances in the Bible where sinning against others is mentioned (like in the Prodigal Son), but if you read the whole of context of the Bible, you see that all sins are ultimately against God, since He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

#3 - There are no levels of sin. You may argue about the lists of "abominations" in Proverbs and elsewhere in the New Testament, but then you would have to ask what the greatest sin is. In which case the greatest sin would be breaking the greatest commandment...which is to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind (the words of Christ). Therefore ANY sin would fall under the category of being the greatest sin.

Ultimately, you have look at the entire picture, from start to finish. I could take the trunk of an elephant and convince people that elephants were a type of snake, but that wouldn't be taking the whole animal into account. Just as you cannot look at the current state of humanity and claim it's not fair and therefore impossible without looking at the whole picture.

 

[Crunkbanker]

Originally Posted by Ccoa
there is no such thing as "proven" in science. The entire basis of science is that nothing can be proven.

Originally Posted by Nphyx
Damn I wish it was as easy as saying that to get people to see it. It's hard to get a person with a vested belief to understand that admitting that isn't the same as denying or even casting doubt on what they believe though.

I completely agree. It has taken me sometime to understand that but it is true. I can't prove my faith to anyone in the way that most people are asking. (tangible proof) but saying so doesn't make it any less valid for me to believe it. thank you for saying that because few people would.

I would just like to comment on the whole "Hitler going to Heaven" complaint that I hear often...

To claim that it's unfair for Hitler to go to Heaven if he accepts Christ on his deathbed while the sweet little old lady down the street goes to Hell because the never did is to miss the point of Christianity...

#1 - Salvation is not about fairness. If that were so, nobody would get into Heaven. It was humanity that seperated itself from God and it is only through the attribute of God's mercy that ANY are able to be saved.

#2 - Hitler's sins (just like any other human who has ever lived) were against God and God alone. Therefore He is the only one who is in position to judge. I know there are instances in the Bible where sinning against others is mentioned (like in the Prodigal Son), but if you read the whole of context of the Bible, you see that all sins are ultimately against God, since He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

#3 - There are no levels of sin. You may argue about the lists of "abominations" in Proverbs and elsewhere in the New Testament, but then you would have to ask what the greatest sin is. In which case the greatest sin would be breaking the greatest commandment...which is to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind (the words of Christ). Therefore ANY sin would fall under the category of being the greatest sin.

Ultimately, you have look at the entire picture, from start to finish. I could take the trunk of an elephant and convince people that elephants were a type of snake, but that wouldn't be taking the whole animal into account. Just as you cannot look at the current state of humanity and claim it's not fair and therefore impossible without looking at the whole picture.

Wow, that was really well stated. I agree. I know that it is hard to imagine a God forgiving like that. Sometimes it is hard for me to grasp too. But based on the Bible that is the case. Look at Paul! He killed Christians before he became a Christian himself. I always forget about that but it just goes to show how dramatically God change your life.

(Disclaimer: Obviously if you don't believe the Bible then you will disagree with me and that is fine, I am only stating it because I do believe the Bible.)

There are other religions out there, even if you don't like what they have to say. My original point was that I think there is an overblown response to "OMG, God is condemning 2/3 of the world!", because every religion condemns at least 2/3 of the world, by that standard. What happens if, when a Christian dies and he finds himself standing before Vishnu? Likewise, what happens when a Hindu dies and finds himself before Jesus?

I have often wondered this? why is that I always seem to see people complaining about Christianity's unfairness but not other religions? there are other religions that are, for lack of a better word, "exclusive". perhaps I am wrong and I fully take responsibility for that if I am but it does seem this way from what I have taken notice of.

 

[Erichermit]

Last week, I was in Sunday Schoolwhen I realised something. According to the Christian faith, the only way to gain enterance to Heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour. I think this is messed up because that would send every non-christian (and even some christians) to an eternal after-life in hell. It also means that if Hitler were Christian, and had accepted Christ as his saviour, he would be absolved of all his sinsand allowed to enter heaven. I would like to know whatother people think about this strange fact about the Christian religion. (Just so people know, I'm Protestant, not Catholic, Baptist, or any other faction)

I dont believe god sends anyone to hell personally. I dont believe in a "Heaven" or "Hell", but rather, that when we die we become part of god. Think of it like God is an ocean. When you are born, a cup of water is scooped out of the ocean. Then when you die, you are poured back in. Thats the way I see it, no heaven, no hell.

 

[Mujklob]

The Christian religion is merely built upon a hybrid of other religions, Egyptian (Horus) and what not. It is a religion that worships the Sun (Son), born on December 25th (~Winter Solstice), and died on Easter (~Spring Equinox). Don't worry about it. No matter which religion is true, the majority are always wrong. As for an afterlife, I do not know, nor does anybody. I doubt that one exists, but you never know. Anyway, if a being like God exists, it would not be so vain as to eternally damn somebody for doubting its existence.

 

[Mudpuddle]

The Christian religion is merely built upon a hybrid of other religions, Egyptian (Horus) and what not. It is a religion that worships the Sun (Son), born on December 25th (~Winter Solstice), and died on Easter (~Spring Equinox). Don't worry about it. No matter which religion is true, the majority are always wrong. As for an afterlife, I do not know, nor does anybody. I doubt that one exists, but you never know. Anyway, if a being like God exists, it would not be so vain as to eternally damn somebody for doubting its existence.

While you are right that the Christian religion does have many apparent ties to other religions, it is quite different:

• Egyptian religions were polytheistic, (believeing in many gods) and Judaism (Which worship the same God as well as Christians and Muslims) was the first monotheistic religion.
• It is true that Christmas does fall on the Equinox. However, Christmas really isn't about the birth of Christ (of course, that's what they say, but...) it was actually created by priests that, after converting some "heathens" to Christianity, decided that the "heathens" would become restless without a holiday, so they said, "We'll have a soltice feast, because, um... Christ was born this day!"
• The Egyptians had a completely different language, how could the early Latin-speaking Christians have know about the "Sun" - "Son" pun of the English language?
• Easter is the celebration of Christ's rising, not his death.
• God supposedly does not damn people because they don't believe in him; He damns them because they have sinned in the past and as imperfect beings, they cannot enter the glory of Heaven (they mmight mess it up, you see.) However, Jesus, according to Christians, sacrificed his life so that Christians could be covered by his sacrifice (not unlike Jews sacrifice "perfect" lambs for their sins as they believe their Messiah has not come yet). If a person was perfect and thought that the idea of God was questionable but never sinned, according to Christians, he would still be able to get to Heaven...

*Sigh*

 

[Giam]

I read somewhere that Jesus isn't coming back until all children are concived by a married couple. Not in our lifetimes.

 

[Rhazdel]

I read somewhere that Jesus isn't coming back until all children are concived by a married couple. Not in our lifetimes.

Well, since my fiance and I are adopting, I guess we are just furthering his coming, then. Oh well.

I like your sig, by the way.

 

[Mudpuddle]

I read somewhere that Jesus isn't coming back until all children are concived by a married couple. Not in our lifetimes.

Whoa, I wonder who put that out. 'Course, maybe they interpreted the Bible differently than I did...

 

[Mujklob]

Easter is the celebration of Christ's rising, not his death.

Aye, it also happens to be the time when the length of the day exceeds the length of the night.

 

[Roman Candle]

Easter is celebrated relative to Passover, and if that's linked to the calendar then it's got nothing to do with Christianity. Go complain at your local Synagogue.

 

[arcthemonkey]

What day the holidays are celebrated on is competely irrelevant, unless you can demonstrate that the occasion for celebration on that day is derived elsewhere.

So what if Jesus wasn't born on the 25th? The fact is that nobody knows exactly what day Jesus was born. Some people believe it was in October, others thing it was August, while still others say it MUST have been April. Even though we simply don't know the day or month of his birth, his birth is still an exceptionally important occasion to christians, and one worth celebrating. When a 3 month old baby is found abandoned, and nobody knows their birthday, are we to simply say they have no birthday, and not celebrate it? Of course not.

But - what day? Up until about 6 years ago, my extended family had a holiday of sorts, where everyone got together at my aunt and uncles house and played vollyball and swam in their big ass pool. Now, I miss that date being a fun, important day. Maybe if I adopted a baby and was pressed to choose a birthdate for it, I would pick that day, just for an excuse to have a party again.

Also, when these celebrations started showing up, christians were being imprisoned and murdered by the romans for being christians. If they all got together on a distinct date important to christianity (that the romans would know about!), and had a party - they had might as well wear special hats that identified themselves. There was a fair amount of subterfuge involved in those days. But, if they have their party on the same day everyone else is, nobody is the wiser.

Again, the day is a irrelevant - it's the occasion. Oh, sure, now we've got Santa Clause (Saint Nicholas was a Bishop from Turkey!) and the easter bunny, and they may be on days of Pagan worship, but if anything, it's because we picked those days so you'd be celebrating our holy days, not theirs.

 

[kaze950]

I'd like to point out that god doesn't codemn two-thirds of the world to hell. The fact is, hell is where we all belong. This is because of original sin. So, god condemns all of us to hell, because of this original sin. It is only through the grace of god and the gift of jesus's sacrifice (Think of him as an upgraded, infinite version of the sacrificing of lambs that were done for god- this is why sacrificing of lambs was no longer neccessary as a temporary forgiveness for our sins, hence Jesus being the perfect lamb).

Thus, it is not that God condemns two-thirds of the world to hell. We are all worthy of it, but if we receive the gift of jesus's sacrifice, we can avoid it. Think of it like this - In order to receive a gift you must accept it. Accepting his gift is the only way to enter heaven. This 'gift' is neccessay, and can only be obtained by accepting it.

So, two-thirds of the world aren't condemned to hell. Two-thirds of the world just haven't accepted this gift yet.

 

[Monk]

For the Christians here:

Do you believe that God is aware of what you'll do before you do it?

 

[kaze950]

Well, God is all powerful, and sees everything (time doesn't exist for God, in a way). So yes.

Obviously, this leads to the question: Why did God create man if he knew that God would sin. That is a question that only God can answer. God doesn't see past, present, and future as seperate things, but all time as one thing (At least, thats what I think). I once asked a professor of theology this:

"Is God limited by his own foreknowledge?"

And I don't remember getting a real straight answer.

Questions like this and the question that your question might lead to simply can't be answered by humans. We don't have access to the secrets of the universe or God. The Bible doesn't everything: Only that which we need to know.

 

[candle]

For the Christians here:

Do you believe that God is aware of what you'll do before you do it?

that gets into the whole Free Will vs. Destiny thing. I got into a huge debate about that at church a couple years ago. A girl in my sunday school class believed in free will, but also believed that God knew everything you would do before it happened. This is not possible without also believing in multiple timelines (which she did not). After I pointed this out to her, she backed herself into a hole she couldn't get out of, no matter how hard she tried (and believe me, she did, hard). Eventually I won by saying that no matter which you believe in, free will or destiny, they cannot coexist without believing in something else entirely, a compromise (much like creationism and evolution).

 

[kaze950]

Actually, what she said is true and possible. God knows what we will do, but doesn't force us to do. Foreknowledge does not preclude free will.

So, while God may know what a man will kill someone, the man still chose to do it. He made the choice to do it.

 

[Monk]

Actually, what she said is true and possible. God knows what we will do, but doesn't force us to do. Foreknowledge does not preclude free will.

So, while God may know what a man will kill someone, the man still chose to do it. He made the choice to do it.

Please define exactly how your will is free.

 

[Andy6000]

Apparently it's 'free' to you, relativity I suppose? You're weighing the pros and cons, and making the choice, and in yours and everyone you talk to's perspective, you just made the decision, even if God totally knows what you were going to do before you would do it and you didn't make the decision so much as follow along this set-out guideline.

Personally, for god to exist for me, he just can't be omnipotent, because then he'd of seen this coming, and if he did and just didn't do anything about it for the people he supposedly loves, then he's just a giant dick.

 

[kaze950]

The question of why did God go ahead creating man if he knew all the crap would happen is something only answerable by God. God sees all time as one, so perhaps the absolute, end result of all this is something positive, worth all the crap that the world has been through.

It's impossible for us to think like God thinks. It would be like a mouse trying to think like a human.

 

[Monk]

The question of why did God go ahead creating man if he knew all the crap would happen is something only answerable by God. God sees all time as one, so perhaps the absolute, end result of all this is something positive, worth all the crap that the world has been through.

But if we had free will, then we control our own destiny, so if he gives us free will, wouldn't he let the end result be how it is - be it positive or negative? If he screws with it to make it end positively or created it all for the specific end result of it being positive, then that would indicate control on his part. You still haven't explained how free will is possible given omniscience.

The results theory is pretty iffy, IMO, because it basically gives a big "screw you" to all the people it F-ed over in order to acheive that result. Only the people alive in that positive end result would actually see the benefits of it, so all the people before it are basically pawns to get there, which is all a really inefficient way of getting to a result. If God is so results-oriented, he could just as easily start at the results he wants instead of letting people die horrible deaths to get there. "God's plan". "God must have had a plan for him/her". Those always get thrown around a lot - as if we can be following God's plan and have free will at the same time.