God Condemns Two-Thirds of World to Hell

[kaze950]

God can influence the world. Hell, he does. But he cannot force a human to do something they do not choose to do. Simply having knowledge of a choice doesn't mean that the choice is being made by him. For example, God knows who will go to hell and who will go to heaven. However, it is still up to us to make that choice. God doesn't control us. I don't really think God has a plan. God's plan for the world was different than what it became. However, God had knowledge of what would happen. But he still <b>wanted</b> it to become something different.

This is where religion gets "confusing", imo. Its best not to think about these things, because will just be going in circles all day long. We don't have the mind of God. If we knew everything, past, present, and future, it would be a great burden to bear.

BTW, this whole discussion about choices and free will sounds like something taken out of The Matrix, lol (Although, the movie did have some religious symbolism).

To sum it up, God knows what choice we'll make but we still have to make it. Free will is the ability to think of a choice, and not purely rely on instinct. We think of all the different options of choices we make, but in the end we still make a choice. I don't think free will means creating our own destiny, but free will is the ability to have a destiny, to be able to make a choice...if that makes any sense.

 

[Monk]

To sum it up, God knows what choice we'll make but we still have to make it. Free will is the ability to think of a choice, and not purely rely on instinct. We think of all the different options of choices we make, but in the end we still make a choice. I don't think free will means creating our own destiny, but free will is the ability to have a destiny, to be able to make a choice...if that makes any sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

I encourage you to read that, particularly the introduction through Determinism, and the last section called "In theology".

 

[kaze950]

Interesting stuff.

My views are somewhat like this:

? The Holy One, Blessed Be He, knows everything that will happen before it has happened. So does He know whether a particular person will be righteous or wicked, or not? If He does know, then it will be impossible for that person not to be righteous. If He knows that he will be righteous but that it is possible for him to be wicked, then He does not know everything that He has created. ...[T]he Holy One, Blessed Be He, does not have any temperaments and is outside such realms, unlike people, whose selves and temperaments are two separate things. God and His temperaments are one, and God's existence is beyond the comprehension of Man? [Thus] we do not have the capabilities to comprehend how the Holy One, Blessed Be He, knows all creations and events. [Nevertheless] know without doubt that people do what they want without the Holy One, Blessed Be He, forcing or decreeing upon them to do so... It has been said because of this that a man is judged according to all his actions. (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Teshuva 5:5) "

That there is a distinction between God's foreknowledge of events and God choosing those events for us. God doesn't make our decisions for us, but simply has knowledge of them. I do not think this limits free will. I don't think free will is a phrase that has a clear, absolute definition either.

There are some Christians (I think Calvinists), who believe God has chosen who will be saved and who will not be saved. I do not think chosen is the right word to use. God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved, but its still up to us to do what we are commanded to do.

For example, one might say that they will not pray for someone who might be dying because, since God knows all that will happen, that person will either live or die, regardless of prayer. The person has the free will to make this choice. And its both true that God knows he would make this choice and God knows what will happen to the dying person. But this does not excuse the person from praying, as he still had to make the choice.

I found this analogy on wikipedia that I like:

(One analogy here is that of time travel. The time traveler, having returned from the future, knows in advance what x will do, but while he knows what x will do, that knowledge does not cause x to do so: x had free will, even while the time traveler had foreknowledge)

Now, if the time traveler is someone completely unrelated to x in anyway, his time travel should have no effect on x's decision. x will make his decision, with free will, but the time traveler will still know what that decision will be.

However, time travel leads to a whole other thing and I think its really only something to be discussed theoretically. Because, let's say you make a choice and God knows that you've made that choice. You could travel back in time and make yourself (if possible) choose another choice. This would make God's knowledge wrong...unless God knows of your time travel and has taken this into account, and thus he would've known that your original choice would not be your ultimate choice.

However, like I said, this whole argument of Free Will versus God's omniscience, can simply go in circles all day long. There are many theories out there and many definitions of what free will truly is. But it is an interesting discussion nonetheless. Maybe church would be more interesting if they talked about this instead of a particular bible verse or something...

 

[arcthemonkey]

(One analogy here is that of time travel. The time traveler, having returned from the future, knows in advance what x will do, but while he knows what x will do, that knowledge does not cause x to do so: x had free will, even while the time traveler had foreknowledge)

Now, if the time traveler is someone completely unrelated to x in anyway, his time travel should have no effect on x's decision. x will make his decision, with free will, but the time traveler will still know what that decision will be.

Also:

God sees all time as one

These are two concepts that have to be resolved before the notion of forknowledge precluding free-will can be proposed, in my opinion.

The first is a matter of causality, and by rejecting it it could be said that you are committing the logical fallacy known as "Post-hoc ergo propter hoc". This fallacy states that because A preceeds B, A must have caused B. Applying this to our debate, stating that God had foreknowledge of B event means that God caused B event fits pretty squarely into this concept.

To fit this portion of the debate into a smaller scale so it can be more reasonably discusses, forknowledge presents itself in many ways in life. Doctors will often weigh the details and decide that a patient will not life through the night. Now, if the patient dies during the night, was it the doctor's fault? Did that patient have no choice but to die, because the doctor knew he would die?

But, what if the patient didn't die? What does that mean? Obviously, that means the doctor was wrong. Why was the doctor wrong? Well, one can only conclude that he didn't have all the information. He didn't know X or Y thing about the patient's body that would have helped him make the right call. Or, maybe he had all the relevant information, but didn't make all the relevant connections. He know about X and Y, but just didn't realize the results that the interplay of X and Y could have.

We take the information available to us and make predictions all the time, and these predictions are often right. If you see a person falling from the roof of a 30-story building, it's fair to assume that they will hit the ground and die. You've got quite a bit of relevant information in this case. Now, if you see a person cough a couple times in a Cafe, it's probably a stretch to assume that they have tuburculosis and have only days to live. You simply don't have enough information to make that decision.

But, imagine if you did have all the information. I mean - all the information. Imagine a doctor who knew the position and state of every cell in a person's body. A doctor who knew every element you had ever consumed or inhaled, and in what quantities. A doctor who understood and never missed every possible interplay between every possible atom in your body.

I think it's safe to assume that if that doctor said you were going to die, you're pretty much frikkin screwed, barring a miraculous intercession (which is pretty much irrelevant).

Now, imagine a God who knew every detail of every living and non-living thing on earth and beyond. A God who knows your thoughts, your dreams, your intentions, and your flaws. A God who can consider every factor of every possibility an infinite number of times in an infinitely small period of time. He knows every decision you could ever make because He weighs every possibility, and never guesses wrong. You make your own decisions, but God knows what those decisions will be - because he knows you.

This is entirely seperate from the fact that you are applying human thought and cognition to the God who created the universe. You are implying that God's knowledge of the future equates with your knowledge of the past. This is so incredibly small-minded.

God sees all time as one

Time is a human construct. Time is the way that humans justify the fact that there can be a point A and a point B. Time is how we measure our existance. every 5 second interval is 5 seconds apart, and every day is a new day.

But what if every 5 second interval was an instant. A millenium no more significant than the blink of an eye. What if you percieved all of time as happening at once. Past, Present, and Future, all as one event. Foreknowledge becomes irrelevant. There is no division between the past and the future. Just consider that, in our overarching context.

I'm not saying that's how God percieves time. I'm not even sure that perception is a word that applies to God. But the fact is that any debate on this subject puts God in a box, and applies human characteristics to Him.

We are not such skilled box makers.

 

[encindia]

That is a crazy philosophy developed by the hardcore Catholics and hardcore SOWTHERN baptists to scare people into the religion! If God created us and is just gonna send us to hell, then all of that love crap people are preaching about is false! :P

 

[kaze950]

If you don't believe that those who don't accept Christ as their personal savior will go to hell, and are a Christian, you should actually read the bible.

Its sad that most supposed Christians know so little about their own theology.

 

[encindia]

I went to Catholic school all of my life. I know all of my theology; I choose to disagree with many philosophies. People who have never know God shouldn't go to hell because He chose not to reveal Himself to them. In the bible it says that God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and all-loving. He wouldn't condemn His children to hell for doing nothing wrong. That is just completely absurd. And I do agree, ignorance is the biggest problem in the world. Underestimation is even worse.

 

[kaze950]

Well, I'm not a catholic. And I think that if someone never knew anything at all about Jesus or God, they wouldn't go to hell. But many of the non-Christians in the world have at least heard something about God or Jesus. It is up to them to further seek God.

Maybe I misunderstood what you said, but I just wanted to make it clear that if someone knows about Jesus, but chooses not to believe in him (even if they do good deeds all their life), they will go to hell. You get into heaven by faith, not works.

 

[candle]

Which I personally believe is not how it should be, but this is one system you can't really fight.

 

[Red Dawn]

I am a total atheist. The major reason i cant believe in any gods (besides the fact that they defy the laws of physics etc) is that there are too many. Buddhists say to enter their version of heaven you gotta devote yourself to buddha and no other god. Christian its the same for their god. So, oh shit. do i go to buddhist heaven or christian hell? or all the hundreds of other possible hells? Whichever religion you are applys, you might say. what if im atheist? do i go to a special place for atheists? is it good or bad? Do i get tortured simply because i believe in science? if so, deities are wankers. Cant they just be nice?

 

[Andy6000]

I am a total atheist. The major reason i cant believe in any gods (besides the fact that they defy the laws of physics etc) is that there are too many. Buddhists say to enter their version of heaven you gotta devote yourself to buddha and no other god. Christian its the same for their god. So, oh shit. do i go to buddhist heaven or christian hell? or all the hundreds of other possible hells? Whichever religion you are applys, you might say. what if im atheist? do i go to a special place for atheists? is it good or bad? Do i get tortured simply because i believe in science? if so, deities are wankers. Cant they just be nice?

Atheism is basically a religion like any other, except one that makes less sense (socially), the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about in relation to other religions (Buddha isn't their 'god', there is no 'buddhist heaven', Buddhism syncs up the most with atheism really, their first tenet is 'life is suffering', which is pretty fun!) and yet dismiss them as 'silly' immediately speaks to your relation to some other religious fanatics.

Logically, yeah atheism is a pretty good choice, because come on, how could a magic sky man exist? Like every religion (if you look really deep), is related to one before it, has the exact same (slightly different) stories, etc etc. None of them are very plausible. But SOCIALLY, you sit around dismissing other religions, pander your crap like a door-to-door bible thumper to everyone you meet, and yet believe that there's nothing better than this life. Depressing eh? I mean, it's good to have that view in my belief, since you don't have the idea that this life is basically an audition for the next, but like one out of two atheists I meet practically make it a religion, with their holy text being criticisms of other religions.

(me=agnostic btw, since there's no way to know, and I don't care too much!)

 

[$t3v0]

See you in Hell

np, but try to put a little more content into your post next time? - Andy

 

[Red Dawn]

@Andy
Is atheism a religion? I would think of it as a lack of religion. I just dont have a religion, so therefore i am classed as an atheist. I dont think other religions are 'silly' i think that they are so incredibly illogical i fail to comprehend how anyone believes in them. I allow reasonable doubt that, maybe they are right i cant prove otherwise. But because of all the conflicting beliefs i dont see how they can be. I dont really need to know a thing about them to have that opinion. (yeah i dont know a thing about buddha, it was just the first thing that came into my head)

 

[candle]

Being an Atheist is like being an anarchist. A bunch of people with similar beliefs banding together to say that they don't believe in the very thing they are. Anarchist groups, believe it or not, have organization to them, and atheists are slightly religious because what is religion other than a bunch of people with similar theological beliefs banding together.

 

[Red Dawn]

@Darkfire
K i sort of got that... But whats with the 'don't believe in the very thing they are'? I dont believe in a master creator or an afterlife, so i thought that that automatically classed me as an atheist. Am I wrong?

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Atheism can be simply not believing in a deity, you could still believe in something after death and account as an atheist - or in some views atheist like (Buddhism). Like Christianity and all religious genres (if I could call them so) have anywhere from dozens to hundreds different smaller pacts within, there are numerous schools of thought grouped under nontheism and atheism - and some people throw agnostic and secularism into that group as well.

And like the many schools of any one religion, many of those tiny branches on the nontheist/atheist/secular thought tree can't even agree with each other on simple matters. So yes, technically you would be an atheist, though others could criticize your choice of words, if you were to debate them over things.

and yes atheism counts, by definition, as a religion as it is technically a faith. One would have the faith of "nope". Such as my belief would technically be a faith as well (closest to Humanist - or if you'd prefer secular humanist... but I prefer Humanist - at least I think I do...) - though many would argue it isn't.
At least... by modern terminology both, less so the humanistic train, would account as a religion.

 

[Vinderex]

I believe that ignorance is bliss. People aren't eternally condemned just for not knowing of or believing in Jesus. I think that people are condemned for recognizing God and Jesus, but still refusing to acknowledge and accept them.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
- Annie Dillard
And everyone's so down on ignorance all the time... heh

 

[bradleydfc]

I think you all are arrogant and are expressing your beliefs, or doings, in the complete wrong fashion. For example, I quote from someone "A magic man in the sky." That is utter disrespect to all religians, and shows that anyone who believes that knows not of any religian thoroughly, and takes them to seriously, and, if you were to actually know of the religians you are so harshly criticising, you would realise that half of religian is believing for comfort and welfare. And another thing that demonstrates this is that you are taking things way too literally, and certain holy texts that I am using as an example, were all written metaphoricly, so that people as disrespectful as you would not show the interlect or understanding to believe, so that you would not understand why to live.

Although, what Vinderex said is true. Very true infact, if you are given something, and choose not to use it, then it is worse than never having it.

 

[Anonymous]

i don't know about religion because Im not religious in the slightest but only because I dont believe a word any of them say.

eternal peace = nothing absolutely nothing your not even aware that there is nothing (it's impossible to think about isn't it, try I bet you cant the reason because we are aware)

oblivion same as above only you are aware

heaven = some clouds wow f---ing whoop de doo oh and a gate where a bouncer sits with a quill and old scroll with a enormous beard 9wonder whats past those gates, probably a mario vine and a pipe)

hell = fire rocks (it's one of those rpg fire caves) heavy metal, hot babes and a horned red beast - erm sounds like the best doesn't it.

also here is a fact christians call pagans devil worshippers hahahaha I laugh in their face in paganism there is no devil he doesn't exist. how do I know my mum was one and they had meetings at the house years ago. there boring but they aint devil shippers.

oh and another thing why is the devil evil and god/jesus good considering nobody ever tried to convert you to the devils side yet all the time, t--ts come knocking on my door sayin hi have you seen jesus, so i say yep if you go now you might just catch him.