Final Fantasy 12

[Rye]

In that line of reasoning, I do agree, and I do think that Square should have spent more time making the story a bit more there, so to speak. As, I agree with a majority, I did feel like it was just gameplay. I enjoyed it of course, but at the end, I wanted more.

And, I want a feature where I could have just sat down and watched the story at the end of the game without all the gameplay. XD

 

[Diedrupo]

@Arc: Everything you just mentioned happened in the first what, 20 minutes of the game? And then, as Prexus mentioned, all these problems are resolved in what, the first 5 hours of the game? God, the story was so contrived, and has so much useless editions it pissed me off.
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS

Here's some examples:

-Any point in Cid being Balthier's father? Ooooh, one of the heroes is related to a villian! What a coincidence! I would have much preferred for them to have no relation.
-Why was there no explanation as to why Fran left. From what I remember, it was pretty much "cause I felt like it." Which is alright I guess, but they threw it as a dynamic struggle with the character, when really, her reasoning doesn't seem all that great.
-Vaan. Was there any point to his character, or his brother? He served NO purpose.
-Same with Penelo.
-Same with Al-Cid. You know, curly-haired, sunglass-wearing french guy. He didn't do anything! Nor did his country, yet, they threw it in as if a relevant plot line. It seems as if they had a bunch of ideas for what to do, and then just said, "nah, let's change it, but not fix what we already did!"
-The Occuria. This felt so tacked-on and so useless. Seriously, it was revealed in the last like 5 hours of the plot, and from my memory, served no other purpose than "this is why he's bad/powerful." Why can't he just be bad/powerful on his own? I mean, could they think of no other motives?
-The Judges. Once again, an element that got so much screen time, and really didn't serve a purpose other than fighting a couple of them, who were following Vayne. For a group to get so much cinematic-time, you think they'd have more to do with the plot.
-Why the hell is Larsa twelve? This is more a gripe than an actual problem I have with the game. But I mean, come on! He looks like a 17 year old girl.

Now, did I enjoy the game? Most definately. It had great gameplay, and atmosphere.
Worthy of being called a "great political drama" ? Absolutely not. In terms of politics, nothing more happens than what you originally see in the manual/the opening cinema until the end of the game. A great poltical drama, should have twists, and turns, and have a changing influence of power.

And sorry if this sounds too cynical/pessimistic/whatever the hell you want to call it.

I think you place way too much emphasis on cut-scene quality, if you ask me. The gameplay alone should have more than made up for any "flaws" that might have annoyed people. Every single thing you listed did not bother me in the slightest when I was playing FF12.

Now if FF12 had crappy gameplay (think FF8), then I might have been more annoyed by the story, but as it is, the gameplay was just so awesome that there was no reason for me to get nitpicky like people here seem to be over the story.

 

[Sirc]

I think you place way too much emphasis on cut-scene quality, if you ask me. The gameplay alone should have more than made up for any "flaws" that might have annoyed people. Every single thing you listed did not bother me in the slightest when I was playing FF12.

Now if FF12 had crappy gameplay (think FF8), then I might have been more annoyed by the story, but as it is, the gameplay was just so awesome that there was no reason for me to get nitpicky like people here seem to be over the story.

Oh right, because the Final Fantasy franchise isn't known for it's masterful storytelling. Most new generation gaming is focused on game-play and most players are glad that it outweighs the story, but for people like me it doesn't cut it. Interest in the stories and worlds are what got me into playing video games in the first place. Like I said, the quality of this game, and any for that matter, depends on what you're looking for. It may have been a fun game for some to play, but the role-playing genre is solely based on interactive storytelling. For me it was like if you've ever went to drink a beverage and expected Iced Tea but found out it was soda, it was horrid.

 

[holloway]

-Any point in Cid being Balthier's father? Ooooh, one of the heroes is related to a villian! What a coincidence! I would have much preferred for them to have no relation.

Oh gee, predictability makes it shit.

-Why was there no explanation as to why Fran left. From what I remember, it was pretty much "cause I felt like it." Which is alright I guess, but they threw it as a dynamic struggle with the character, when really, her reasoning doesn't seem all that great.

Did you miss the whole section in the village and with her sister?

-Vaan. Was there any point to his character, or his brother? He served NO purpose.

-Same with Penelo.

True, but same with Yuffie, Vincent, Selphie, Queena, Rikku etc. They're additional characters that needn't be extremely important. Was she badly fleshed out? Oh most certainly.

-Same with Al-Cid. You know, curly-haired, sunglass-wearing french guy. He didn't do anything! Nor did his country, yet, they threw it in as if a relevant plot line. It seems as if they had a bunch of ideas for what to do, and then just said, "nah, let's change it, but not fix what we already did!"

?? Stopping the Rosarians joining the Imperial army, aiding the resistance with extra forces, FLESHING OUT THE FUCKING WORLD?

-The Occuria. This felt so tacked-on and so useless. Seriously, it was revealed in the last like 5 hours of the plot, and from my memory, served no other purpose than "this is why he's bad/powerful." Why can't he just be bad/powerful on his own? I mean, could they think of no other motives?

You do have a point here, but that's how the story is. It hardly weakened the story.

-The Judges. Once again, an element that got so much screen time, and really didn't serve a purpose other than fighting a couple of them, who were following Vayne. For a group to get so much cinematic-time, you think they'd have more to do with the plot.

Well they do, being the Imperial forces' controllers and all. They also act as the face of imperial tyranny in the world. I cannot understand your point here- all games have side characters that fight your team- and this time you complain they get too much flesh behind them?

-Why the hell is Larsa twelve? This is more a gripe than an actual problem I have with the game. But I mean, come on! He looks like a 17 year old girl.

That's just FF design for you. Rikku was 15, Lulu was 21, Tidus and Yuna were 18 and 17.



Now I think of it, the reason this FF has been so divisive is because the story has a different style to it. Whereas other games focused on the characters and their motives and histories, this game focused on the world as a whole. The idea, as even stated at an E3 conference years ago, was to show the size of the conflict that the small character group was involved in. The world was well explored- the characters were not. Does that annoy me? Oh heck yes- they could have perhaps given the ability to explore the characters more, but generally it served what the purpose was.

 

[LightAndMagic]

Oh gee, predictability makes it shit.

Actually, no, it has nothing to do with the fact that it was predictable, it was the fact that it just seemed like a useless connection.

Did you miss the whole section in the village and with her sister?

No, I saw it. Like I said, my memory's not the greatest on this game, so that's where I'm going from. And from what I remember, she essentially says she left because she felt like it. Perhaps my mempory is wrong, and she did have a good reason, but from my memory it seemed dumb.

True, but same with Yuffie, Vincent, Selphie, Queena, Rikku etc. They're additional characters that needn't be extremely important. Was she badly fleshed out? Oh most certainly.

Not really. With Vincent you got a fleshed out past of him being in the Turks, Lucretia that whole business. And his visits to her further developed his character. Yuffie, definately not as much, but got some development and backstory while in Wutai. Furthermore, both of these characters are secret characters, they can get away with it. I do agree with you on Selphie, Quina and Rikku though. Penelo is excusable because she wasn't the main character, but Vaan was pitched as the main character. Thus, I believe should much more of a purpose other than generic, standard pretty boy.

?? Stopping the Rosarians joining the Imperial army, aiding the resistance with extra forces, FLESHING OUT THE FUCKING WORLD?

Sorry. My bad then. I remember talk of that, but I don't remember it actually happening. But I'll take your word for it.

Well they do, being the Imperial forces' controllers and all. They also act as the face of imperial tyranny in the world. I cannot understand your point here- all games have side characters that fight your team- and this time you complain they get too much flesh behind them?

I think my angst here is that they developed them, when they didn't to a whole lot to the plot, when they could have spent the time developing more important characters. If that makes sense.

That's just FF design for you. Rikku was 15, Lulu was 21, Tidus and Yuna were 18 and 17.

And like I said, more of a gripe, not an actual problem. Just felt like mentioning it.

Now I think of it, the reason this FF has been so divisive is because the story has a different style to it. Whereas other games focused on the characters and their motives and histories, this game focused on the world as a whole. The idea, as even stated at an E3 conference years ago, was to show the size of the conflict that the small character group was involved in. The world was well explored- the characters were not. Does that annoy me? Oh heck yes- they could have perhaps given the ability to explore the characters more, but generally it served what the purpose was.

See, and that's the point I'm trying to make. I feel characters are by far the most important aspect to any story, be it comedy, romance etc etc. And these characters, as you say, were not well explored. And that's why FFXII disappointed me a little. Like I said, I still enjoyed it (it has one of the greatest atmospheres to a game ever). But I found it lacking in areas, which is what stops it from being great.

 

[Sirc]

The depth of the World? Other Final Fantasy games didn't do that? With the exception of FFX, I had a far better understanding and connection to the worlds than I did with FFXII. If anything, FXI is all about the depth and retrospective quality of the 'world'.

 

[Mega Flare]

Cant we all agree that this is one of the worse RPGs of all time?

 

[holloway]

The depth of the World? Other Final Fantasy games didn't do that? With the exception of FFX, I had a far better understanding and connection to the worlds than I did with FFXII. If anything, FXI is all about the depth and retrospective quality of the 'world'.

Really? Because I really cannot name many of the places on FFXI beyond the key places (Ludblum, Alexandria, Treno, That tree thing) as it all seemed to just be passing through most. In the case of FFVIII I see your point, but even FFVII, although story and character wise fantastic, the world was still a bit...flat. The places had character and events occurred but it just didn't seem that real (probably the wrong word) to me and suspension of belief was quite hard at certain locations.

 

[Sirc]

Really? Because I really cannot name many of the places on FFXI beyond the key places (Ludblum, Alexandria, Treno, That tree thing) as it all seemed to just be passing through most. In the case of FFVIII I see your point, but even FFVII, although story and character wise fantastic, the world was still a bit...flat. The places had character and events occurred but it just didn't seem that real (probably the wrong word) to me and suspension of belief was quite hard at certain locations.

Well that's because you've probably only played it once, where others may have played it or enjoyed it more. I can write out the entire FFIX storyline and places in chronological order.
I had trouble being introduced to Ivalice. It was just 'there', and I had seen it in Sqaure's other games. In FFIX for example, everything is a mystery. The outer continents are shrouded in mystery, and you progressively uncover and begin to understand how everything works and compliments each other as a whole. How the airships fly, where the races originate from and what they are, the climate and environmental properties. Everything is presented to you beautifully through storytelling.

 

[Mr_Smith]

Perhaps gonna buy it, not sure though.

 

[LightAndMagic]

@Holloway: So you're arguing that you can't name places in FFIX aside from key cities. Tell me some key places in Rosaria, or to a lesser extent, Archadia. The only area that has important places is Damalsca. They developed that country incredibly, and left the other places pretty much blank. Whereas FFIX spans the whole world, they don't have time nor storage room to make a detailed country as Damalsca is. Chances there are the same quantity of places in FFIX as there is in FFXII. And the fact that you can't name areas in FFIX really proves nothing.

 

[Diogo //Skyfusion//]

-Any point in Cid being Balthier's father? Ooooh, one of the heroes is related to a villian! What a coincidence! I would have much preferred for them to have no relation.

It is extremely important to both Balthier's character and story's development.

First, the reason why Balthier run away from home and became a sky pirate is because he had an obsessed father like Cid. Cid's relationship with the magicite, and the mention of Draklor laboratories by Judge Ghis to the party, is what makes Balthier stick with Ashe tosee how everything turns out - he himself admits that later on. The nethicite advice he gives to Ashe (affecting her development) is based on what he learned from Cid, and his own development (realizing that no matter how he runned away, problems would always meet him) also only happens because someone like Cid is his father (if he didn't know anything about magicite and had not runned away from home because of it, then he would not see it as a "problem that came back" when he found out the shards were nethicite). Finally, being the son of such famous person allows Balthier to help the party at several times, most notable in Archades, as well as being quite well informed (like recognising Lamont as being Larsa).

-Why was there no explanation as to why Fran left. From what I remember, it was pretty much "cause I felt like it." Which is alright I guess, but they threw it as a dynamic struggle with the character, when really, her reasoning doesn't seem all that great.

Fran left to explore the rest of the world. She was against the idea of Vieras living in hide and thought that Ivalice was changing. But she had to pay a high price for that freedom. When she found out that her younger sister was going into the same path, Fran advised her to not do so, because "it was not worth it".

-Vaan. Was there any point to his character, or his brother? He served NO purpose.

Other than re-agruping the heroes, helping the party at crucial situations, like at Bhujerba and Eruyt Village, affecting Ashe's development and thus her huge decision later on (and thus preventing Ashe from becoming the next Vayne), representing the Dalmascan people that Ashe swore the protect, and representing the player and having the story told through his eyes... yep, he served NO purpose at all.

Because characters must have super universe-destroying super powers and wield huge swords to have a purpose in a story. :P

Recks was important both as a plot device for the events that take place at the beginning, and to give the motivation for Vaan to do what he had done and stick with Ashe.

-Same with Penelo.

Other than serving as a plot device for the party go to Bhujerba, and being Larsa's development (which is extremely important for the rest of the game), I agree, she was mostly ignored.

-Same with Al-Cid. You know, curly-haired, sunglass-wearing french guy. He didn't do anything! Nor did his country, yet, they threw it in as if a relevant plot line. It seems as if they had a bunch of ideas for what to do, and then just said, "nah, let's change it, but not fix what we already did!"

It's the union of Al-Cid and Larsa that allowed the party to achieve peace after Vayne's death. He also helped the party with some Rozzarian issues, and gave top secret information worthy of someone of his status.

-The Occuria. This felt so tacked-on and so useless. Seriously, it was revealed in the last like 5 hours of the plot, and from my memory, served no other purpose than "this is why he's bad/powerful." Why can't he just be bad/powerful on his own? I mean, could they think of no other motives?

Because it developed the entire theme of freedom to a whole new level of depth (mankind versus gods), because it gave depth to Vayne's character (wanting to free the world from the gods and become a hero. That would not be possible if Vayne was a "lolz guy with natural super powerz for no reason in a story that tries to have realistic characters"), because it helped to explain the whole nethicite stuff, and because it allowed to give more depth to Ivalice's history (raithwall). They were also mention several times at early Vayne's/ Cid's cutscenes, and Venat appears at 40% of the game.

Really, the story could not be the same without the Occuria.

-The Judges. Once again, an element that got so much screen time, and really didn't serve a purpose other than fighting a couple of them, who were following Vayne. For a group to get so much cinematic-time, you think they'd have more to do with the plot.

Gabranth's relationship with Basch was crucial at the beginning of the game for several reasons. Drace's death was crucial at giving a motivation to Gabranth (protect Larsa), and the main reason why he decided to follow Vayne. Ghis moronic actions gave trouble to Vayne, which then affected most of the future Archadian cutscenes. Bergan's obsession with Vayne's plan to revolt against the gods makes him kill the Occuria's high priest at half of the game, thus affecting Ashe's objectives entirely.

 

[holloway]

@Light, that made no sense> If the game isn't centred on Rosaria I fail to see how it is important they fill it in. As you said FFIX is all over a world, so it had to have everything filled. On XII Rosaria isn't important, it's designed to show the effects of the conflict on outside countries.

As for Arcadia: Sochen Cave Palace, Arcadia, Old Arcadia, Balfonheim and its port, Nabudis, Nabudi Necrohol, Cerobi Steppe, Tchita Uplands, Phon Coast, Salikawood, Nabreus Badlands.

I believe that's pretty damn detailed when the action centres on the capital and conflict zone (border of dalmasca).

 

[LightAndMagic]

It is extremely important to both Balthier's character and story's development.

First, the reason why Balthier run away from home and became a sky pirate is because he had an obsessed father like Cid. Cid's relationship with the magicite, and the mention of Draklor laboratories by Judge Ghis to the party, is what makes Balthier stick with Ashe tosee how everything turns out - he himself admits that later on. The nethicite advice he gives to Ashe (affecting her development) is based on what he learned from Cid, and his own development (realizing that no matter how he runned away, problems would always meet him) also only happens because someone like Cid is his father (if he didn't know anything about magicite and had not runned away from home because of it, then he would not see it as a "problem that came back" when he found out the shards were nethicite). Finally, being the son of such famous person allows Balthier to help the party at several times, most notable in Archades, as well as being quite well informed (like recognising Lamont as being Larsa).

Actually, I totally forgot about Balthier's advice to Ashe, and I remember thinking among the same lines when it was revelead that Cid was his father. However, I'd argue he's more famous because of his stint/work as a judge, than because he's the son of Cid.
While you have some points, maybe it's just me, but it seemed the family connection was there for the sake of having a family connection. Like when a movie's being artsy for the sake of being artsy, that's what it felt like to me. I can't remember who said it, but it was a speaker who came to my school about writing, who said that nowadays people fall back on coincidences and relations to try and have a more meaningful plot. And that's stuck in my head ever since, and perhaps that's why I'm a bit biased against it.

Fran left to explore the rest of the world. She was against the idea of Vieras living in hide and thought that Ivalice was changing. But she had to pay a high price for that freedom. When she found out that her younger sister was going into the same path, Fran advised her to not do so, because "it was not worth it".

Once again, thanks for reminding me. I remembered it being "because I felt like it" which isn't what it is.

Other than re-agruping the heroes, helping the party at crucial situations, like at Bhujerba and Eruyt Village, affecting Ashe's development and thus her huge decision later on (and thus preventing Ashe from becoming the next Vayne), representing the Dalmascan people that Ashe swore the protect, and representing the player and having the story told through his eyes... yep, he served NO purpose at all.

The problem I have with these is that for the most part, these could have been done by anyone. I mean, Balthier helped influence Ashe's decision, not just Vayne, Penelo, or really any Dalmascan could have represented them. Just really, I felt he had no flair, little personality and that many of his "accomplishments" could have been done by another member of the party.

Because characters must have super universe-destroying super powers and wield huge swords to have a purpose in a story. :P

Yep, cause that's totally what I said.

Recks was important both as a plot device for the events that take place at the beginning, and to give the motivation for Vaan to do what he had done and stick with Ashe.

Alright, I'll accept that.

Other than serving as a plot device for the party go to Bhujerba, and being Larsa's development (which is extremely important for the rest of the game), I agree, she was mostly ignored.

Which is too bad, because she probably could have been interesting.

It's the union of Al-Cid and Larsa that allowed the party to achieve peace after Vayne's death. He also helped the party with some Rozzarian issues, and gave top secret information worthy of someone of his status.

I don't think it would have really mattered. The impression I got from Larsa is a peace-keeper, and regardless of who was in control, peace would have been sustained because of Larsa and Larsa alone. These Rozzarian issues never really came into play, or after being built up to so much were swept quickly under the rug and soon forgot about. Gave top secret information worthy of someone his status? That's like saying a spy should have been the story because the information he gives is secret enough for him to know. (Sorry for the bad example) In the end, I found he served as an incredibly useless plot addition.

Because it developed the entire theme of freedom to a whole new level of depth (mankind versus gods), because it gave depth to Vayne's character (wanting to free the world from the gods and become a hero. That would not be possible if Vayne was a "lolz guy with natural super powerz for no reason in a story that tries to have realistic characters"), because it helped to explain the whole nethicite stuff, and because it allowed to give more depth to Ivalice's history (raithwall). They were also mention several times at early Vayne's/ Cid's cutscenes, and Venat appears at 40% of the game.

I didn't get that impression from Vayne at all (once again, probably not from remembering it). Furthermore, if he were trying to free the world from gods, by using a god, wouldn't that be extremely hypocritical? By relying on a god, you're still putting fate in their hands, or at least one of their hands.

Really, the story could not be the same without the Occuria.

Disagree. I truly feel it could have been done without. It's a world of magic, it doesn't hurt to be somewhat unrealistic, especially with nethicite. And because it's a mystical world, I don't feel it necessarily needs an explanation. Perhaps I'll replay the game some day (I doubt it), and my view will change, but I remember I felt incredibly dissatisfied with their whole inclusion.

Gabranth's relationship with Basch was crucial at the beginning of the game for several reasons. Drace's death was crucial at giving a motivation to Gabranth (protect Larsa), and the main reason why he decided to follow Vayne. Ghis moronic actions gave trouble to Vayne, which then affected most of the future Archadian cutscenes. Bergan's obsession with Vayne's plan to revolt against the gods makes him kill the Occuria's high priest at half of the game, thus affecting Ashe's objectives entirely.

I do agree with Gabranth's character. I think he serves as one of the only well-developed characters in the whole game. And like I said later, I think all the time they got would have been better used to develop the main characters.

@holloway: Alright. Here is what I meant to say, and I don't think it came out right, but here I try again. In FFXII, the place of the game is so close-knit, with not a large span between the places. For this reason, I think the game setting feels a lot more connected, and whole, when really it's because you're looking at a specific place through a magnifying glass. FFIX had the whole world to, and tons of cultures to cover and what not, and for this reason, the setting seems a bit more disjointed, because of the large mishmash of climate, culture etc etc. Whereas, if all of FFIX took place on just one area, say around Alexandria, the world would probably feel more whole because everything is so much more connected. Does that make sense?

I think just in general, while playing, none of the characters struck me, nor did any of the plot points. And like I said before, I think characters are the most important part to any story, and I feel for the most part they got nowhere near the development, and transformation, they should have, in the actual game time.

 

[holloway]

while playing, none of the characters struck me, nor did any of the plot points

...and so far it's been shown time and time again that you've simply forgotten or ignored half the game.

 

[Diogo //Skyfusion//]

However, I'd argue he's more famous because of his stint/work as a judge, than because he's the son of Cid.

Doubtfully, as he left the Judge's position very quickly. In fact, he was just probably a normal Judge, not a Judge Magister, as Ghis, Gabranth, etc, did not recognize him.

The problem I have with these is that for the most part, these could have been done by anyone. (...) that many of his "accomplishments" could have been done by another member of the party.

Can't the same be said to most of the other characters in the FF series? Vaan is not the main character, he is a side character much like Wakka, Zell and Barret, but one that represents the player (is as ignorant as the player) and also the eyes of the story. He is a character that gathers the heroes and watches the story unfold through his eyes, instead of being THE character to which the story revolves around (that was Vayne, and followed up by Ashe).

The impression I got from Larsa is a peace-keeper, and regardless of who was in control, peace would have been sustained because of Larsa and Larsa alone. These Rozzarian issues never really came into play, or after being built up to so much were swept quickly under the rug and soon forgot about.

Peace-keeper or not, Rozzaria was provoking a war as much as Archadia. Actually, Archadia only started to provoke it once Vayne became the emperor - until then they were mostly defending themselves against the threats of Rozzaria. And then we have Dalmasca whose heir to the throne (Ashe) was willing to use the nuclear power of the nethicite to fight the empire, much like Vayne.

Larsa could not prevent the war alone, that's why Vayne kept fighting. But Larsa knew that "collaboration" was the key to peace and tells that straight at Vayne's face before the party enters Bahamut. Vayne does not listen, he continues to fight, and dies this way. Larsa takes the throne, and thanks to his good relationship with Al-Cid and with Ashe, he manages to end the war. Al-Cid agreed with Larsa's ideals, and one of his roles in the story was to influence the rest of Rozzaria regarding Larsa, much like how Larsa was willing to convince his father of Ashe should she ever prove her status.

Furthermore, if he were trying to free the world from gods, by using a god, wouldn't that be extremely hypocritical? By relying on a god, you're still putting fate in their hands, or at least one of their hands.

Venat betrayed the other gods because she herself agreed with the human's freedom. They needed to rely on her because she was the one who had the knowledge to give, but she was always willing to give the "throne" to Vayne.

 

[LightAndMagic]

@holloway: The fact that I've forgotten them shows how they didn't stick in my mind. I could tell you pretty much everything about a character, or the plot in FFIX (my favourite one). The fact remains that yes, while playing, none of the characters stood clear in my mind, so let's just chalk it up to different flavours, we've clearly come at a standstill.

@Diogo: You're probably right. And really, I realize at this point, the fact that I've forgotten so much, I don't think all my points/arguments are well developed, or informed enough to debate. So, yeah, you're probably right.

 

[ccoa]

As for ccoa, I'm done with you, really. Thanks for playing. I'm done trying to make my concessions clear as day, and to litter my statements with as many IMOs as I can fit in there. I may have made a few condescending comments (meant mostly in in the spirit of joking), but I most certainly have not attacked anyone. I've made it clear from the start that I believe this game has value that you, specifically deny, but I have done so by discussing the game, specifically, at length, and you have countered by doing nothing but hurling insults, insinuations, and generally nothing more than calling my character into question for refusing to admit that everyone is right, I'm wrong, and that there can be no discussion.

I'm sorry, but if I'm not allowed to debate opinions, and to perhaps try to sway people to see things the way I do, then for all I'm concerned, this sub-forum should be closed. Let people state their opinions, unmolested, on their blogs.

Can I get you anything? Tea, crumpets, a violin?

I'd like you to point out one single instance of me "hurling insults." Please. Point it out. Point out where in my posts I haven't backed up my arguments.

My stating that people ruined the game for themselves is no an effort to make their opinions invalid, rather being a way for me to introduce the concept that the game can be approached differently to alleviate many of the complaints rendered against it. If explaining to people that they are playing a game in such a way that their enjoyment is certainly diminished by the way they are playing is some sort of unforgivable sin at rmxp.org, I'm sorry. I am, honestly, only trying to help people enjoy a game that I, and many others, consider to be a masterpiece.

If my restatements are reworded to a different effect in later posts, this isn't me trying to be underhanded - indeed, in the instance you pointed out, I had intended to explain that I was making a clarification in rewording my original statement. If that wasn't clear, I'm sorry, but that's the way it was intended.

That may be how you intended it, but it is not how it came out. Sorry, not psychic. I'll have to work on that. We all know we have to be psychic on the internet.

As far as characters being well-rounded and deeply characterized, please understand that I am speaking relatively. We can go all day quoting examples of famous books with famous characters who are shallow or who are well-rounded, but the point of all of my arguments is that, in the grand scheme of things, I felt I understood the motivations and characters of the character in Final Fantasy XII very well, compared to other places where characters are considered well developed. The questions you ask about Penelo may well be answerable, and I think I could even approach a few, but the fact is that in a majority of games and literature, you couldn't answer those questions about anyone, even in games with "well-developed" characters. I also made a specific point of stating that I think characters can be overdeveloped. In fact, I think many characters in Xenosaga were, in fact, overdeveloped, but Xenosaga also had very good characters who were, but your definition, severely underdeveloped. Characters like chaos or Wilhelm, whose value as characters comes largely from the speculation about their lives. I'm not saying that the character in Final Fantasy XII are superb pinnacles of development, but I think that, in the greater context of effective literature and memorable characters, the cast of Final Fantasy XII is, at worst, worthy of further contemplation.

When did I ever say answering those questions was the "definition" of well-developed? The point, since you seemed to have missed it, is that they are so poorly developed that you can't even answer basic questions about who they are and what they want. Not that you "have" to be able to answer any of them, but that you can't answer really answer any with any certainty. A well-developed character should feel like a real person.

And I don't ever recall saying every character in Xenosaga was well-developed, I said it contained some of the best developed characters ever to grace an RPG. Debate with what I said, and leave the strawmen at home.

Now, while my position may be indefensible, and I may be arguing from what may well amount to nothing more than a bizarre personal connection, this is, as I've tried to make clear, my own opinion, and I am not in the business of attacking people's characters over differences in opinion.

Yeah, again, never attacked you personally.

Also, I never once quoted gamefaqs. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Not everything I've said in this thread or that post is directed at you.

You can repeat that level grinding was necessary until you're short of breath, but I can state matter of factly that it's not. Fact - if you state level grinding is necessary to complete the game, and someone completes the game without level grinding, you've been proven wrong. How many people now have stated they didn't have to go level grinding? 3? 4? I don't want to suggest that, maybe, you just sorta sucked the game (or maybe you're gambits weren't as good as a human pilot would have been, which is one of the reasons I stopped using them), but there is clearly some sort of disconnect happening. If you are suggesting that we are all lying, then that's different, but please, at least, state as much clearly.

How many of the people who state they didn't have to level grind were doing some of the sidequests along the way? The Mark Hunting sidequests are a form of level grinding, since they provide exp and barter items, but they might not be considered level grinding by all.

I skipped all of those horrid sidequests save the first mandatory one, and I can definitively state that I had to level grind in order to get through the game.

And, and I can't believe I have to say this again, I tried multiple styles of gameplay, including without gambits, with light gambits, etc. The easiest way to play that I found is mostly autopilot.

I'm sorry I missed your statement about the plot. That was my mistake, apparently, and I apologize for putting words in your mouth. However, I reiterate my assertion that the quality of political machination is sufficient to call the game a "political" one. No, it's not a murder mystery, and it's not a political mystery story, but nobody said it was. I thought the plot was delightfully politically driven, and was well-executed in that respect. You are free to disagree.

I never did, and it seems you're still putting words in my mouth. I said the politics were very simplistic and direct, not that there wasn't any politics, period.

Attacking me, my opinions as a whole, and my character itself, is completely inappropriate, and entirely out of the scope of indeed this entire forum. I may be a sucky mod and a sedentary member, but if my person comes under fire again for such a pointless and juvenile reason by the administration of this forum, no less, then I will walk away, and leave you to it.

It's clear, at least, that I'm not welcome in this thread, so ccoa and Marcus, enjoy. Sorry for being a horrible human being.

Way to keep up on current events, arc. Glad you read the staff forum.

I have not attacked you. Once again. And just because I was an administrator does not mean that I am not entitled to an opinion. Nor does it mean that I can't be offended by someone telling me that my opinion is clearly wrong because I don't know how to play a game properly.

And as Arc said, consider the fact that at least 3 or 4 people here have said they beat the game without level grinding. That means you are wrong. No matter how you butter your toast, you are wrong.

See above.

 

[Minkoff]

hey ccoa i don't think arguing about final fantasy with a bunch of twelve year olds falls into the category of "taking a break from the forum"

 

[Diedrupo]

Oh right, because the Final Fantasy franchise isn't known for it's masterful storytelling. Most new generation gaming is focused on game-play and most players are glad that it outweighs the story, but for people like me it doesn't cut it. Interest in the stories and worlds are what got me into playing video games in the first place. Like I said, the quality of this game, and any for that matter, depends on what you're looking for. It may have been a fun game for some to play, but the role-playing genre is solely based on interactive storytelling. For me it was like if you've ever went to drink a beverage and expected Iced Tea but found out it was soda, it was horrid.

I only just noticed this now.

You must fail to understand what interactive storytelling is. In a game of dungeons & dragons, sure the GM is telling the party the story but guess how the actions and the events of the story unfold? The players make it up. They decide what happens, they roleplay what their characters say, etc.

In any RPG, the story is you controlling your party, talking to NPCs, exploring dungeons, wandering through towns and the world, and yes, cut-scenes. To make a retarded claim that only cut-scenes constitute an RPG's story makes it obvious that you have been treating them like interactive anime instead of role-playing games.

FF12's story was good enough that any weird flaws regarding character history or motivations are so minor and inconsequential that to gripe about them only shows a lack of appreciation or enjoyment of the actual game. If not knowing why Cid had a poor role in the game really bothers you over everything else the game offers, your priorities are just jacked.

You can't just cast the gameplay aside and focus only on cut-scenes. When you do that, you reduce an RPG to nothing more than an interactive anime. An RPG's story is much more than that.