Religion, what do you think?

[Venetia]

consider that if you have a few short birds, and they eat bugs that hide in the cracks of rocks. Due to overfeeding, the bugs intelligently move upwards, to a point that only the taller birds can feed on them. This means that the smaller birds die, and the taller birds reproduce with taller young.

No. you're un-saying everything that I explained before.

Evolution is not created by necessity. EVER. Ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever!!!! Giraffes' necks aren't long because they decided they REALLY wanted the leaves from tall trees. They RANDOMLY mutated and it worked out in their favor after millions of years. Random!

You're only seeing the most favorable result, after millions of years of extinct lines and species and failures! The T-Rex didn't evolve into a bird, the T-Rex's line is kaput! It failed! What you're seeing is a totally different hereditary line of animals that miraculously weathered the luck of the draw over and over again!

Behavioral patterns MAY evolve over time but that is not evolution, not evolution as it exists as a plain stripped-down simplified THEORY, it is a change in behavioral/instinctual pattern. Which can LEAD to evolutionary patterns but even then it wouldn't likely be a direct cause! Your DNA doesn't respond to will or behavior!

;-; ;-; ;-;

 

[Venetia]

Plus a bug wouldn't just evolve from crawling in the rocks straight to flying (just spawning flight-capable wings from nothing??), there'd be thousands of generations inbetween and the birds would adapt simultaneously ... x_x

 

[Venetia]

I could murder the people behind these TV shows showing examples of dinosaurs in general turning into birds and apes in general turning into man ... Showing overly-generalized transitionary effects without even the proper subspecies or lineage in mind ... It didn't fucking happen that way, assholes, you're fucking up the theory goddamnit...

Man didn't COME FROM apes, we CAME FROM a species of MAN that kind of looked ape-ish, which came from something that was a LITTLE LESS, etc. etc. VERY gradually, over an extremely long period of time, yadda yadda ................

If more people came to know these effects LESS as LINKS and PERIODS that are plainly defined, but rather as VERY GRADUAL changes over LONG PERIODS OF TIME, more people would be accepting of it!!!! Overgeneralizations kill!!!!

I mean you and I don't look shit nothing like the humans that existed 10,000 years ago! We just happen to share incredibly similar bone structures and body makeups! But we're over 2 feet taller on average and have wildly divergent skin/eye/hair/etc features! Does that mean we have evolved? No, it means we're in a constantly changing evolutionary process................. ;-;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

*passes out*

 

[Jason]

Heh, take it easy Ven, I think we know what you mean, and I agree with what you're saying lol, please take a seat and a cup of water, and calm down :grin:

 

[Venetia]

Just felt like I should explain it because no one seems to be getting it terribly accurate ...

Sorry I just love me some biology, guys. Carry on @_@

 

[Jason]

A little offtopic, but biology was my favourite of the three sciences, it's the only thing I got an A* in (Basically the British A+), apart from English Writing (I wrote some pretty awesome stories...) Yay me !

Anyways lets turn this back on topic, eh ? :box:

 

[boon]

Just felt like I should explain it because no one seems to be getting it terribly accurate ...

Sorry I just love me some biology, guys. Carry on @_@

sorry ven just saying what I learned in school!

 

[Venetia]

;-;

 

[Daxis]

I think there's something called orthogenetic evolution, I'm not too sure about what it's called, but it's where an animal basically hones a single trait for hundreds/thousands of years. Sort of like how the horse started with a piglike form, but wanted to farther and faster. Then, it would only breed with a females that could run fast as well. Over thousands of years, this type of breeding, where the horse only breeds with those with fast traits or whatever, eventually change very animal itself into another organism.

I saw venetia's post about how evolution and how it never happens by neccessity. Horses or whatever wanted to run faster, so they breeded themselves to run faster. This post teel what I thought of when I read that.

 

[Venetia]

orthogenesis is a totally different theory from natural selection, though it loosely pulls from the original evolution theory. It theorizes that we have come to be because of an autonomous drive toward something. i.e. fate, perhaps. it's a prettier theory that is more unsubstantiated and is only a slightly more sophisticated line of thought from the theory of spontaneous generation. but it can't really be 100% disproven either so!

i personally think it's bunk because all you have to do is look at any species which was driven into extinction by its inability to adapt. Look at the polar bear. They're dying out. They're not adapting. They've been the same for thousands of years. Fact of the matter is they are not evolving. Sorry, polar bears, orthogenesis has left you behind

every time i've said evolutionary theory, i apologize, i was referring most to the theory of natural selection, and i should be more careful with my words.

 

[Venetia]

also evolutionary patterns in dinosaurs and early mammalian species have been shown many times to be hugely nonlinear (i.e. something will develop a trait and then revert back to its original trait with the generations) so that's another nail in the orthogenesis coffin

 

[Ellie]

Unless it was the orthogenicist in question testing various things out over time, and reverting them for bad decisions.

 

[Venetia]

orthogenicist
i lol'd :D ty wyatt

anyway orthogenesis presented as "divinely guided evolutionary patterns" might be a nice take as a mid-step between creationism and natural selection, in terms of making leaps of faith ...

 

[Incognitus]

Grrrrr!

I typed a long post before I went to work this evening, and saved it offline because I didn't have the time to post it online.

Thanks a lot Ven for covering everything. It's completely useless now. :P


I wholeheartedly agree with the comments on the really bad popularist programming. It does a lot more harm than good.

 

[Cruelty]

orthogenicistanyway orthogenesis presented as "divinely guided evolutionary patterns" might be a nice take as a mid-step between creationism and natural selection, in terms of making leaps of faith ...

that's actually what i like to believe. =D
that's a really nice way of putting it too!

 

[Spoon]

I always got the impression that religion was made for law..

ie. Encourage people that if they behave well today, then they get their 'rewards' in afterlife.

I understand that this might not apply to all religions..
And that it might offend some devoted people..

But I still do believe in most religious principles regarding how we should act on a day-to-day basis;
like.. no stealing, no murdering, love thy neighbour and whatnot : p

But thats just my opinion. (And I'm pretty firm at it...)

 

[Brimstone-x]

Religion is just a passing belief the majority shares. Years later, science will rule, and I (A catholic) will be the idiot. Just like years before that, the jews were the idiots. And ETC.

As much as people don't want to admit it, as much as it cripples you to know this, Years into the future, science will have its run, some other stupid radical thing will come along, and Scientists will be the idiots.

Don't give me the "its fact" crap either. Doesn't make a difference, something will always come along, so, I say live and let live, until they come along and tell all that the Pulipolian Alien from Planet Gazuipi, the planet of Gertlesmers(Gods) will come and steal all the yuipilongss from our planet and prevent our bodys to be revived in time machines in the year blingsmar.

Wow...Guess that makes me a pretty weak catholic huh? Meh, I fear commitment.

excuse while i stretch the word 'what?!' into an entire paragraph, good sir

The jews were never idiots. they had their religion, and in the religion was a prophecy which came true. some jews just don't believe that it was the right dude. they were never proven wrong, or just revealed to be idiots, their religion - in some sense - actually worked. even older religions than that, like buddhism, were never proven wrong, so i'm not quite understanding where you're getting at with 'the jews were the idiots, and etc'. i am not sure what you're basing your theory on (quite frankly i'm not even sure you've thought about, nor studied these things enough to form the opinion you did), but it seems to be pretty weak.

if you're a catholic, and you don't genuinely follow catholicism, then you're not a catholic btw.

Hate my job, had plans of responding, go to work, BAM, all forgotten, anyway, months later...
I didn't literally mean the jews were idiots, half of my damn beliefs come from theres. I didn't mean to come off as a jackass there. (Usually do though). I actually respect most jewish people, they hold there beliefs a lot stronger than I ever could or will.
I'm probably the laziest christian ever, never go to church or actually pray much, Its more of a, I know your there God, I'll get around too it eventually, sort of thing. So, I don't know if I'm NOT christian, wouldn't really know what to classify that as. Christiagnostic? Anyways, as for my actual thesis, I just feel that we give and we take, but not much is ever really accomplished, new religions will come along, and the process will repeat, and the old, while parts of them are always remembered and carried on, are for the most part, forgotten. Evolution/Progress in other words.

I guess It just have that sort of "Hopeless" view on everything hindering me from seeing the light.

 

[Diaforetikos]

I'm new to this topic and am not too sure whats going on in these last few posts, but I will answer the original post.

Religion seems to be a set of traditions and rules that people follow to gain some form of satisfaction. I'm a christian, and read the bible and pray and go to church, but I don't do what your traditional "religious person" does because I'm not religious.

*Before I go any further, I just want everyone to know that I know and I know you know that I can't make anyone believe the same way I do. I can only influence it. So before you go and ask how your supposed to see it the way I do, don't ask. I can't explain that. Its impossible. Thanks.*

I don't pray with my head bowed and eyes closed. I don't cross my chest and do all that. Thats religion. I do pray, and read my bible and go to church. Thats a lifestyle, not religion. Now we can get into an argument on why and why not thats religion, but thats not my point. My point is that religion, based on my views, is pointless. I don't sing hymns. I don't hail anything. I just do the basics and live my life accordingly. I'm not bashing anyone who does these things, just using the basic generalization of religion to get my point across.

I just read my bible and do exactly what it says. Nothing more and nothing less. Just knowing the history of the bible won't get me into heaven, and using the bible as just a text book wont help. Like I said, I live a lifestyle, not a religion.

As far as your standard religion goes, its pointless and means nothing. Just some things people did a long time ago and it stuck and now were supposed to do it. Its energy I could put elsewhere.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Diaforetikos]

What's your point? You say you're not religious and the things you do aren't what traditional religious people do, well err, yes it is? It doesn't matter how you pray, the fact that you actually pray, read the bible, and go to church makes you religious.

Yes, I do go to church, read my bible, and pray. (this is the part I didn't want to get into because it drives away from the topic) But I do it through application of what I learned through the bible or at church and apply to my life. I do it for results. Others do it because it is tradition. Most of the people who go to church go because people tell them they should. Whoop de doo!! You went to church. Want an XBOX Achievement?? The devil can go to church, what does that do for him? It doesn't matter if you go to church and read your bible and pray. Are you living the life? Or are you doing all these things because people told you it was the right thing to do? Are you walking around claiming your "religion" but your life doesn't show one bit of it, or are you getting results? Is your life changing or are you too lazy too actually try to live the lifestyle? I could go on, but it wouldn't get me anywhere. This is where you become "religious" or you have a "christian lifestyle."

So why are you praying, reading the bible doing exactly what it says, and going to church?

I do it for the lifestyle change. Religion, like I said, is just tradition. You go to church on Sunday, or you even read your bible through the week, but where is it taking you? Are you receiving knowledge alone or are you changing your life accordingly? Religion and lifestyle. In religion your supposed to have a lifestyle change, but how many people in church actually live like that? Very few. Nobody wants to give up their pleasures. So they go to church and claim to be Christian when all they are in reality is a traditional religious church goer. So the word religion has become twisted and its meaning. People say that when your religious, you go to church, pray, read your bible, live the life. But if you ask someone why they don't go to church, (this is assuming they believe in G-D) they probably say they don't like to go because of they don't want to actually live the lifestyle, they just want to play church and religion. And do everything that heaven doesn't require. But I digress. I just do my basic "religious" stuff but I actually live it out. I don't play church.