Force-feeding anorexics
- Thread starter Grathea
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See, I personally find it hard to call things like Anorexia Nervosa an illness. I think that they are more a state of mind. This may sound strange, but hear me out.
The DSM-IV-TSR says that Anorexia Nervosa can be diagnosed if the following are true of the person:
1. Refusal to maintain body weight at or above a minimally normal weight for age and height (e.g., weight loss leading to maintenance of body weight less than 85% of that expected; or failure to make expected weight gain during period of growth, leading to body weight less than 85% of that expected).
2. Intense fear of gaining weight or becoming obese
3. Disturbance in the way in which one's body weight or shape is experienced, undue influence of body weight or shape on self-evaluation, or denial of the seriousness of the current low body weight.
4. The absence of at least three consecutive menstrual cycles (amenorrhea) in women who have had their first menstrual period but have not yet gone through menopause (postmenarcheal, premenopausal females).
If you'll notice, these all require some sort of conscious thought that is not caused by an abnormality in the brain's ability to function (with the exception of the 4th, but the 4th is just an effect of the lack of nutrition)
If you think about things like Psychopathy, they all have some physical problem with the brain's ability to function, often a problem with one of the neurotransmitter chemicals.
There are other "mental illnesses" such as Anorexia Nervosa, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, and Generalized Anxiety Disorder that occur with no direct physical symptoms. (Weight loss is not a direct symptom of Anorexia Nervosa, it's an effect of not eating which is caused by the mental symptoms of Anorexia Nervosa) All of these sorts of disorders are triggered by some stimulus that is purely psychological, and all of them can only be cured, so to speak, with other psychological stimuli (Note that they can be managed with medicines, but the medicines only work as long as they are taken, they do not cure the problem, just offset it) If you'll notice, for all of these types of disorders, the only cure (Defining cure as being a treatment that can have permanent restoring effects, even after treatment has ended) is therapy. Therapy, of course, is just a targeted set of psychological stimuli.
It is also important to note that the majority of the latter group of disorders did not exist if you go further back in history. Now, I do not mean that they went undiagnosed, but they simply didn't exist. Anorexia Nervosa, for example, was not a problem because being thin was not a good thing in anyone's eye at one point. Beyond that, the idea of needing to be good looking did not come from so many directions. Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome probably existed, but would not have been as wide spread, because the idea of respecting fellow man didn't exist, and many other events that are traumatic today either didn't happen then or were not traumatic then.
For these reasons, I find it odd that Anorexia Nervosa is often likened with illnesses like Schizophrenia when they are so fundamentally different.
Directly addressing the proposal of force-feeding anorexic patients, I was previously throwing around the idea of letting people choose for themselves. I am still inclined to stand by this position, because I do not feel that Anorexia Nervosa takes away a persons ability to make decisions in the same way that Psychopathy would. However, even if you do say that Anorexia Nervosa is something that should get a person sectioned, force-feeding would not be the smart thing to do with the patient once they are sectioned. It has been previously said that people will "get over" the humiliation involved. Anorexia Nervosa is primarily caused by humiliation with one's own body. While most people would not be affected so greatly by this humiliation, anorexics are, so it would not be a great move to humiliate them further, as it would be very likely to cause an entirely new disorder.
I still feel that Anorexia Nervosa is not something to be sectioned for, however if you feel that it is, force-feeding is still not the way to go.
As for the people saying that it is "a fact" that Anorexia Nervosa is an illness, the idea that you hold on to that so tightly is mind boggling. You have to understand that some facts are only facts because they cannot be false. An "illness" is something that is defined and understood only by humans. Therefore, if humans call something an illness, it's an illness. The fact that it is an illness doesn't mean jack-diddly, because it just as easily could not have been. It's like saying that it is a fact that one hour is sixty minutes. You are talking about two definitions that we created. The fact that one hour is sixty minutes is pointless. A better fact is to say that the earth takes a certain amount of time to travel around the sun. No matter what your frame of reference is in that case, that will always be true.
Back to Anorexia Nervosa, the only reason it is an illness is because we said it is. Playing sports could just as easily be considered an illness, because it is so risky. Even more specifically, let's go with the sports player who continues to play when they are knowingly injured. We ended up calling that brave, or determined, but it can be just as risky as Anorexia Nervosa. If sports were not a way to demonstrate toughness and resilience, then that sports player would surely be called mentally ill for what they do to themselves. Because fighting through an injury is considered to be strong by society, it is not an illness. Society has decided that, in this case, the ends justify the means.
If anyone wants to dispute the legitimacy of the sports player as an analogy, consider the football player who continues to play after repeated concussions. That person is not considered mentally ill, yet they are very clearly at a high risk, perhaps even higher than the anorexic, of dying or doing other permanent damage to themselves.
The DSM-IV-TSR says that Anorexia Nervosa can be diagnosed if the following are true of the person:
1. Refusal to maintain body weight at or above a minimally normal weight for age and height (e.g., weight loss leading to maintenance of body weight less than 85% of that expected; or failure to make expected weight gain during period of growth, leading to body weight less than 85% of that expected).
2. Intense fear of gaining weight or becoming obese
3. Disturbance in the way in which one's body weight or shape is experienced, undue influence of body weight or shape on self-evaluation, or denial of the seriousness of the current low body weight.
4. The absence of at least three consecutive menstrual cycles (amenorrhea) in women who have had their first menstrual period but have not yet gone through menopause (postmenarcheal, premenopausal females).
If you'll notice, these all require some sort of conscious thought that is not caused by an abnormality in the brain's ability to function (with the exception of the 4th, but the 4th is just an effect of the lack of nutrition)
If you think about things like Psychopathy, they all have some physical problem with the brain's ability to function, often a problem with one of the neurotransmitter chemicals.
There are other "mental illnesses" such as Anorexia Nervosa, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, and Generalized Anxiety Disorder that occur with no direct physical symptoms. (Weight loss is not a direct symptom of Anorexia Nervosa, it's an effect of not eating which is caused by the mental symptoms of Anorexia Nervosa) All of these sorts of disorders are triggered by some stimulus that is purely psychological, and all of them can only be cured, so to speak, with other psychological stimuli (Note that they can be managed with medicines, but the medicines only work as long as they are taken, they do not cure the problem, just offset it) If you'll notice, for all of these types of disorders, the only cure (Defining cure as being a treatment that can have permanent restoring effects, even after treatment has ended) is therapy. Therapy, of course, is just a targeted set of psychological stimuli.
It is also important to note that the majority of the latter group of disorders did not exist if you go further back in history. Now, I do not mean that they went undiagnosed, but they simply didn't exist. Anorexia Nervosa, for example, was not a problem because being thin was not a good thing in anyone's eye at one point. Beyond that, the idea of needing to be good looking did not come from so many directions. Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome probably existed, but would not have been as wide spread, because the idea of respecting fellow man didn't exist, and many other events that are traumatic today either didn't happen then or were not traumatic then.
For these reasons, I find it odd that Anorexia Nervosa is often likened with illnesses like Schizophrenia when they are so fundamentally different.
Directly addressing the proposal of force-feeding anorexic patients, I was previously throwing around the idea of letting people choose for themselves. I am still inclined to stand by this position, because I do not feel that Anorexia Nervosa takes away a persons ability to make decisions in the same way that Psychopathy would. However, even if you do say that Anorexia Nervosa is something that should get a person sectioned, force-feeding would not be the smart thing to do with the patient once they are sectioned. It has been previously said that people will "get over" the humiliation involved. Anorexia Nervosa is primarily caused by humiliation with one's own body. While most people would not be affected so greatly by this humiliation, anorexics are, so it would not be a great move to humiliate them further, as it would be very likely to cause an entirely new disorder.
I still feel that Anorexia Nervosa is not something to be sectioned for, however if you feel that it is, force-feeding is still not the way to go.
As for the people saying that it is "a fact" that Anorexia Nervosa is an illness, the idea that you hold on to that so tightly is mind boggling. You have to understand that some facts are only facts because they cannot be false. An "illness" is something that is defined and understood only by humans. Therefore, if humans call something an illness, it's an illness. The fact that it is an illness doesn't mean jack-diddly, because it just as easily could not have been. It's like saying that it is a fact that one hour is sixty minutes. You are talking about two definitions that we created. The fact that one hour is sixty minutes is pointless. A better fact is to say that the earth takes a certain amount of time to travel around the sun. No matter what your frame of reference is in that case, that will always be true.
Back to Anorexia Nervosa, the only reason it is an illness is because we said it is. Playing sports could just as easily be considered an illness, because it is so risky. Even more specifically, let's go with the sports player who continues to play when they are knowingly injured. We ended up calling that brave, or determined, but it can be just as risky as Anorexia Nervosa. If sports were not a way to demonstrate toughness and resilience, then that sports player would surely be called mentally ill for what they do to themselves. Because fighting through an injury is considered to be strong by society, it is not an illness. Society has decided that, in this case, the ends justify the means.
If anyone wants to dispute the legitimacy of the sports player as an analogy, consider the football player who continues to play after repeated concussions. That person is not considered mentally ill, yet they are very clearly at a high risk, perhaps even higher than the anorexic, of dying or doing other permanent damage to themselves.
a mental illness is a mental illness whether or not it's existed forever. the fact that something is caused by certain stimuli that were absent in the old days shouldn't exclude it. things can go wrong with your head in ways that are not chemically hardwired into your skull and have been since the beginning of time.
by stating that it isn't an illness you're suggesting that people who suffer from it can simply choose to start eating healthy amounts again. I think that people have driven the point that this is not the case quite enough.
could we get more people who actually read the thread or at least the first post????
by stating that it isn't an illness you're suggesting that people who suffer from it can simply choose to start eating healthy amounts again. I think that people have driven the point that this is not the case quite enough.
could we get more people who actually read the thread or at least the first post????
hi talking out your ass
Like Vadon said, it's not exclusively girls. I think girls are a little more pushed to be thin rather than boys, who are pushed to be muscled (and there's a syndrome for that too you know) - so you can see why girls would be more prone to develop anorexia.
Edit: Wtf? Clearly I was a page behind sorry ;_;
every berries":380kn6y8 said:
The point of saying that it didn't exist then was to say that it is not any actual defect. It is thoughts, pure and simple. I've read the entire thread, and you have been talking out of your ass the entire time saying "Oh boy, it's an illness!" "It's a fact that it's an illness" What the hell does it matter if it's an illness? Have you ever actually looked at the definition of illness before you started spouting shit?
By this definition, my example of a sports player is an illness.
every berries":380kn6y8 said:
Read my post, I did not say that. My point of not calling at illness was not to say it didn't need treatment, but to say that force-feeding is not the way to go. If we call it an illness, they'll throw a pill in the person and call them cured. If we call it simple a mental disorder, we are saying therapy is the way to go, which it is. The fact that you say "I think that it has gone past that point" shows that you haven't been paying much attention here, because no one is saying that it is as simple as deciding to eat breakfast one morning. If you'll notice, I grouped it in with PTSD for a reason. PTSD is a state of mind, it is an outlook and a perception with absolutely no physiological roots. It can be hard as hell to fix it, sure, and no one is saying that PTSD isn't a problem. It is not, however, a true illness. As a perfect proof that PTSD is a state of mind, think about what a gang banger is going to do before he goes out to kill. He is going to take a psychoactive drug, which will alter his state of mind at the time he kills, making him less susceptible to take in the psychological pieces of killing that would cause PTSD. It was the same exact deal with Heroine during the Vietnam War. People who are subjected to the exact same stimuli as those who get PTSD will not get PTSD if they have altered their state of mind. And it is important to note that that is the only relevant (relevant meaning it would have anything to do with PTSD. The fact that they become addicted doesn't matter much to PTSD) thing that the psychoactive drug will do to the person. Simply by changing the state of mind, you can avoid PTSD. In the same manner is how Anorexia Nervosa should be treated.
Oh my god, you are stupid. Do you understand the difference between an idea and a word? You've all been talking about Anorexia Nervosa as being a disease by fact. Well, it's a disease by fact because the definition of the word illness is what we made it, so it includes Anorexia Nervosa. However, if you think about it in terms of ideas, do you think that the idea of Anorexia Nervosa is as severe as the idea of Psychopathy and that it should be treated as such? If you do, you are a complete idiot, because Psychopathy cannot be cured and is caused by an actual physiological defect in the brain where as Anorexia Nervosa is a temporary state of mind that can be fixed simply by altering that state of mind.every berries":380kn6y8 said:
Go to your library and pick up a book about logic, and maybe you will learn something. You clearly do not have a grasp of the problem with using definitions to support your claims. Think about it like this: If someone mixed up the definitions of shortest and tallest and said "Mt Everest is the shortest mountain in the world" Their words would be wrong, but in their head they would have had the right idea, and so they would still be right. The only reason their words were wrong is because we happened to call short short and tall tall. An even better example is the verb "to google". 10 years ago, if you said "to google" is not a real verb, you would have been absolutely right. Does that change the fact that you could go to google and make a search? No, of course not. Whether or not there is a word and what the word means doesn't mean jack.
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No, actually some definitions of illness specifically state there has to be a Physiological defect.
And you are missing the point. The definition of illness is irrelevant. By definition, yes Anorexia Nervosa is an illness. But so is Cancer, so is Psychopathy, so is a Cold. You treat them all very differently, so it is important to remember that.
And you are missing the point. The definition of illness is irrelevant. By definition, yes Anorexia Nervosa is an illness. But so is Cancer, so is Psychopathy, so is a Cold. You treat them all very differently, so it is important to remember that.
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DeM0nFiRe":rtpgv6ak said:
So what's your point? They are all illnesses, be they mental, physical, viral or whatever; and they are all treated differently.
Saying that anorexia isn't a mental illness because there is no physiological cause is wrong. Mental illness can be caused by physical, mental and environmental factors, and anorexia can be caused by all three types (counting genetics as a physical contributor). Mental illnesses are mental illnesses, whether they are caused by neurotransmitter imbalances, genetics, environmental factors or any other cause. Saying "no it isn't" doesn't make you right.