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Curing Homosexuality?

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Epic win Miek. Simply epic. Like I said a couple of replies above, this topic's all well and dandy, but before asking ourselves how to cure something, we need to decide if and why we should "cure" it.

Oh, and normality is just what most people agreed on. It has no moral value of any sort (or shouldn't anyhow).
 
"Normality is subjective and ultimately means nothing."
    normality is the majority's opinion. I wonder what you think about democracy.
    it is too based on the idea of majority, you know. sometimes-oh noes- majority prevents
    some people from what they want.
    it does matter to be 'normal'. ask someone who doesn't feel normal- a crippled man, etc.
    no getting weird looks on the street, not feeling excommunicated.

besides, I could ask the opposite question- why shouldn't gay people (try to) be straight?
attraction? how long does it last? ask a married couple. ask them about the love that builds with the years. ask some old people, who married without seeing their mate before the wedding day. love, relations, is it all about attraction ..? is it all sex?
ask gay people that made a family, if it was so bad for them.
 
why shouldn't gay people (try to) be straight?

Because it is their choice. If they don't want to be gay, why should they try to be!

Oh and about the "disappointed parents" issue... If the parents are disappointed, it's their fault, not their child's, for being so intolerant.


normality is the majority's opinion. I wonder what you think about democracy.

Four words:

Hitler was voted in.
 
You won't get an answer, my friend.

See, the funny thing about homophobia is that there's no argument against gays that isn't abstract bullshit. All the "reasoning" is composed of wildly vague ruminations on what's "normal" or something similar.

silverwind":15t37izd said:
  normality is the majority's opinion. I wonder what you think about democracy.
    it is too based on the idea of majority, you know. sometimes-oh noes- majority prevents

Trust me, just because the "majority" of people think something (and I'm not sure that even applies to this particular issue) doesn't mean it's morally justifiable. After all, at one point the majority of Americans felt slavery was a good idea. Societies evolve...and one day, we will on this issue too. It's just a matter of time.

The majority of people believe murder is wrong. Why? Because it does harm. Same with things like rape, theft, etc. This is why we have laws against these things. Now, I have never met or spoken with anyone who could give a real answer as to what actual harm homosexuality does. It has no effect on straight people whatsoever. Why your average straight person should care about the business of strangers is completely beyond my comprehension.

Faced with the lack of any real harm to cite in these instances, we hear insulting conjecture that would make debate team advisers cringe. We hear that it undermines society or the "sanctity of marriage." How exactly does it accomplish this? Are we expected to believe that there will be some magical decline in straight marriage if gays marry? It's completely unrelated. And honestly, what's more damaging to the institution of marriage? Two men or two women who want to commit their lives to one another...or Britney Spears having like 3 past husbands before she turns 30?

There's no argument against homosexuality that works within any kind of logic. I'm expecting a reply that will cite the Bible....nothing wrong with faith, but faith is the opposite of logic. It's believing something even though you can't justify it with facts. I admire that in most cases, but with that in mind, there's no way to make a case that some gay atheist should have to refine his lifestyle to fit in with what a conservative Christian says. The standards, rules and prejudices within a religion only apply to those who choose to follow that religion. It has absolutely no authority over those who don't. And I don't even want to give Christianity an unfair shake here. There are deep divisions among Christians, plenty of whom take Jesus's "love my neighbor" talk to heart. Cause let's be honest, when people use the Bible to back up their feelings on this issue, they're really just talking about the old testament, not the guy the religion is named after.
 
I like how there's always long pauses after someone posts something that proves someone wrong. It probably takes a long time to write the long words and confusing phrases that have absolutely no meaning.

Btw, Volrath for President, even if I'm not American.
 
silver wind":3lbb5iwu said:
I know I might sound 'square', but I'm a religious person.
Translation: Excuse me while I use my relgion as an excuse to talk out my greasy arse!
silver wind":3lbb5iwu said:
I don't think one should date someone because of physical attraction ALONE.
This is a wise decision, and we'll curely get to that in a moment.
silver wind":3lbb5iwu said:
Let's put it this way( boy, am I gonna get stoned for this), how many white and 'colorful' couples are there? virtually none, right? don't black men find white women attractive..? their body is similar to the 'colorful' girls, ain't it? yet they don't DO anything about it.
Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaa lol niggers amirite.  :lol: Again, we'll revisit this point later, you glimmering studnugget, you!
silver wind":3lbb5iwu said:
a stigma prevents this kind of relationship.
Note: This is why many gay people don't come out, and go on to form strained, miserable relationships and raise children who may or may not be displaced by divorce. Yes, you really can make a choice when it comes to being gay: You can choose to act on it. Like one of those dirty jungle monkeys hooking up with a fine white damsel, that takes BALLS in many parts of the world.
silver wind":3lbb5iwu said:
(and the world goes on just fine. NOTE- I do not mean mixed couples are bad, just the the world won't collapse if they won't exist. that my opinion about gay couples too. instead of gay couple, we'll have a NORMAL FAMILY- is it a bad thing these days??)
I dare you, you sniveling, cowardly little retch, to define normality in a global sense. In some cultures, married couples experience no emotion for eachother that could be compared to love. They reserve that for extramarital affairs that, yes, are often homosexual in nature. Some cultures condone and encourage men to hold hands and associate solely with men unless it's to get married. Some countries (or even some religions in the US) expect you to have as many wives as you can get your grubby mitts on. Some cultures have third genders, or even more.

This is not an issue of normality, but an issue of what makes you comfortable. Familiarity. Sameness.
silver wind":3lbb5iwu said:
in a similar way, stigma against Gay people should stop homosexuality almost completely. that is, if goody-good people wouldn't keep protecting them like they're the society's pride and joy.
Awwww, but I thought you were the good guys. The bright-white, glorious crusaders of morality. The paragon of goodness in a sea of depravity.

Or is that a Freudian slip in regards to your true nature?
 
2. what is "love"? do you believe in 'love at first sight'?
  I believe we can control who we love. meaning, people choose to be gay.
  No,it is not a disease - gay people claim they can't control it, cause they don't
  want to. they don't think it's a bad thing.

These kind of statements never made sense to me. Why would a person choose to be gay? So they can be social outcasts and endure "the closet?" Sounds like a lot of fun to me.
 

Marcus

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I want to know what's so wrong about being abnormal.

Because it spells out the death of a race?  There is no clear cut definition of "normality" but anything that stunts the procreation of a race is abnormal.  Unlike animals, humans have the technology to overcome their limitations (I.E. gay couples can continue their bloodline through artificial insemination) but if we were to revert back to a primal nature I can guarantee there wouldn't be any homosexuals.

...Which would make an interesting study.  There are gay animals (dolphins come to mind) but I would like to see someone do a serious scientific analogy on evolution and homosexuality.  I personally think that, as man and technology evolved, homosexuality increased.  Some Romans were known to take on little boys as concubines but that was more of a socially acceptable thing than actual LOVE.

Silver Wind... man, you shouldn't post anymore.  As a black protestant I find your arguments offensive to both people "of color" and people of religious background.  I would tear your posts apart but there's nothing I can say that everyone else hasn't.
 
Not sure about curing homosexuality, but I do have a friend who may have cured two ladies he dated of heterosexuality.  Perhaps the APA should do a longitudinal study on him...

I have often found the main stream arguments against homosexuality to be quite unpalatable and disingenuous.  The most disingenuous one being the sanctity of marriage crap.  None were seriously up in arms over Anna Nicole Smith's grave robbing, or any multitude of scandalous unions that were clearly an affront to this sacred institution.  Its only when the Homos wanted into the club that they had a problem.  If they really wanted sanctity they would ask the state for a marriage gestapo instead of just a tiny simple ammendment, but it will never happen because its not about the mockery that Anna or Las Vegas has made of it. 

Religious reasons?  That's between them and god.  What's it to you?  Are you the one without sin?  Families?  I suppose children would be better off bouncing around in temporary foster care or growing up in orphanages and group homes with people with substance abuse problems, than being adopted by a middle class white collar gay couple that provides a safe and stable environment.  Or better yet with a hetero couple who are more interested in scoring drugs and leaving their kids with Uncle Pedophile Pete than raising them.  Out of all the issues concerning quality of life for a child's life in a household homosexuality is way down there on the list of concerns.  If its about the kids there are better causes to fight.
 
Marcus, you might not be up to picking them apart, but I am.

  what is "love"? do you believe in 'love at first sight'?
  I believe we can control who we love. meaning, people choose to be gay.
  No,it is not a disease - gay people claim they can't control it, cause they don't
  want to. they don't think it's a bad thing.

Bollocks.

most of the time, people fall in love AFTER they know each other some time-  first they  'test' their partner- his looks, his beliefs, his character, his religion, prob. his sex too - and  if they like them all, they allow them self to fall in love. so what about gay people- this process doesn't exist for them?

Bollocks. That's how relationships start. If you're referring to random sex and one night stands, heterosexuals do that too.

I don't think one should date someone because of physical attraction ALONE.

Heterosexual couplings are formed in exactly the same way all the time.

Let's put it this way( boy, am I gonna get stoned for this), how many white and 'colorful' couples are there? virtually none, right?

That's simply bollocks.

in a similar way, stigma against Gay people should stop homosexuality almost completely

Bollocks. When homosexuality was considered a disease, it existed. When it was punishable by death, it still existed. Social stigmas are nothing.

"And stigmas aren't good things."
  no, but they prevent people from doing bad things sometimes.

Bollocks again.

however, they dig under the foundations of society, namely family.

Bollocks. This is only true in a sociological ideal, which has never existed.

and if they adopt a child, are they helping or creating additional problems? you know kids learn how to pick a wife/husband from their parents.

There's barely enough evidence to support that. No psychologist would give this a thought beyond "Bollocks".

I refuse to believe a family can cause someone to "suffer". for the very least, their parents won't be disappointed of them, they won't fear society's reaction, and they'll have kids. I'm not too sure it's better than having gay partner. for the society, it is better.

Bollocks. When you understand how society works, come back. In a homosexual couple, both partners can fulfil expressive and instrumental roles at the same time, which is technically better for society.

we may as well allow pedophiles to have our kids, and people walk naked in the street- why stop them? it's their 'personal' issue, right? society has the right to make rules, dammit.
we don't have to 'understand' everyone's weird desires.

Unfair comparisons. Also, bollocks.

if a gay person reads this, I wanna say I do not hate gay people, nor look down on them. like the saying: there are no bad people, there are bad actions.

You seem to have a hard time showing it.

must I explain why homosexuality isn't normal? ask disappointed parents of gay people. they'll have plenty reasons. and again, kids- your own kids. family. normality.

Only because they have expectations of their children becoming like, nay, better than they are. If a parent is a bigot, they'll always feel that way. Any "normal" parent gets over it, and it simply becomes fact.

"I haven't heard about any studies showing that children of homosexual parents have an increased chance of becoming homosexuals themselves."
with gay couples adopting, and closet gays, it may be harder to test.

Because it's hardly worth wasting time studying. Studies that I have read said that most homosexual couples are either wanting to or encouraged to adopt a child of the opposite sex. Their example to the child basically says "this gender is great". If you want to apply the "like parent" theory (despite it being bollocks), it comes out the same.

about pills.. aren't they supposed to heal mental problems? I find even that hard to believe, yet sometimes pills alone cure people's depression, etc.
maybe it affects attraction too? sometimes chemical materials affect people more than we think.

Pills can only mask physical sypmtoms or alter hormonal levels. If homosexuality is chosen, it won't do anything. If it wasn't it still won't! All they can do it attempt to activate ingrained reproductive urges, which is dangerous and as such not practised.

normality is the majority's opinion

Yes. And the majority are fine with homosexuality. For someone so concerned with normality, you don't pay much attention to it.

it does matter to be 'normal'. ask someone who doesn't feel normal- a crippled man, etc.

I'm a crippled homosexual, and I get no stares or looks. I have a "normal" life. Another example down the drain :eek:

besides, I could ask the opposite question- why shouldn't gay people (try to) be straight?

You try to be gay,  and apply your reaction. I'm sure you'd be happy to be simply told not to be straight.

And now for Marcus:

Because it spells out the death of a race?  There is no clear cut definition of "normality" but anything that stunts the procreation of a race is abnormal.

That's bollocks. That only applies to extremophilic situations and/or developing species. Humans are neither. Also, abnormalities are thought to have had significant benefits in humanity's evolutionary environment. They were all survival instincts, or traits that defined someone as a leader.

if we were to revert back to a primal nature I can guarantee there wouldn't be any homosexuals.

Tell that to the gay monkeys.

I would like to see someone do a serious scientific analogy on evolution and homosexuality.

It's impossible. Evolutionary studies are retrospective, and since we don't have all the facts, we can't do anything about it beyond what we have.

There.
 
Holly, thank you so much. I really needed that to hold onto sanity.

Seriously, Silver, all you have posted are opinions so far. Get some facts.
 

Marcus

Sponsor

True fact.

All rapists, serial killers, mass murderers, dictators, and sexual predators are the result of heterosexual relationships.

How's that for facts?
 
Marcus":3c34gr2o said:
True fact.

All rapists, serial killers, mass murderers, dictators, and sexual predators are the result of heterosexual relationships.

How's that for facts?

An unnecessarily alarmist point, but a fact I suppose.
 
Marcus":1o0l05kf said:
...Which would make an interesting study.  There are gay animals (dolphins come to mind) but I would like to see someone do a serious scientific analogy on evolution and homosexuality.  I personally think that, as man and technology evolved, homosexuality increased.  Some Romans were known to take on little boys as concubines but that was more of a socially acceptable thing than actual LOVE.
This could be seen as a spurious correlation, since technology increased right along with our perceptions of social mores. In the 1950s, we had computers. Cool! However, around the 1970s, those uppity queers started getting noisy. Therefor, computers (technology :microwave:) caused gay people. Excellent! :rock: I'm feeling totally scientific, now!

Only that's not quite how it works. I think a big problem with this debate is that so many people confuse being gay with acting gay. Being gay is an attraction to people of your own sex. Acting gay is acting on this attraction. Studying how many people were actually gay at any particular point in history wouldn't work very well, simply because it would have to quantify attitudes rather than actions, which is really fucking hard to do without a cleverly worded survey and a time machine. So, you'd have to quantify action, a task that's monumentally easier, but damn unsuitable for this purpose.

As society becomes more accepting, coming out becomes safer and more of an option. It's not so much that you have more gay people, but that you have more who actually admit to it.

Also, I agree that Silver Wind should never post again.

True fact.

All rapists, serial killers, mass murderers, dictators, and sexual predators are the result of heterosexual relationships.

How's that for facts?
Well, possibly not for long. Science is chugging along all the time, you know.

I learn toward believing that homosexuality is a learned behavior, based on the supposition that if homosexuality were hardwired it would naturally have bred itself almost completely out of any given species due to natural selection.  Furthermore studies of homosexuals who chose to raise their own genetic offspring, the evidence tends to suggest that the children do not become gay - which is variously used as an argument in support of gay marriage and gay childrearing and against the idea of a "gay gene."  Of course it could be a rare recessive trait, hard to say since we've only been able to study it for one generation.

Herein you run into a sort of Catch 22, in that the children in turn did not 'learn' this behavior from their parents. Children gleen a substantial amount of their gender and ethnic identity from the actions of the parent they identify with, so why not gayness?

Your example of doggie rape is equally if not more retarded. Did the raped dog learn to put up with it, or did he start willingly humping the other dog? There was an experiment in a thing called learned helplessness that might apply here. There are also gay penguins, and primates that grope eachotehr sexually, regardless of gender, just for fun.
 

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Sic Semper Tyranosaurus":1zppvcta said:
I learn toward believing that homosexuality is a learned behavior, based on the supposition that if homosexuality were hardwired it would naturally have bred itself almost completely out of any given species due to natural selection.  Furthermore studies of homosexuals who chose to raise their own genetic offspring, the evidence tends to suggest that the children do not become gay - which is variously used as an argument in support of gay marriage and gay childrearing and against the idea of a "gay gene."  Of course it could be a rare recessive trait, hard to say since we've only been able to study it for one generation.

Herein you run into a sort of Catch 22, in that the children in turn did not 'learn' this behavior from their parents. Children gleen a substantial amount of their gender and ethnic identity from the actions of the parent they identify with, so why not gayness?

I didn't learn any of my sexual tastes ("normal" and otherwise ;) ) or behaviors from my parents.  Did your parents determine in any way what you find sexually interesting?  I would guess in your average healthy parent-child relationship they wouldn't.  I suggest it is more of an overall personality trait developed through a variety of predispositions and social influences.

Your example of doggie rape is equally if not more retarded. Did the raped dog learn to put up with it, or did he start willingly humping the other dog? There was an experiment in a thing called learned helplessness that might apply here. There are also gay penguins, and primates that grope eachotehr sexually, regardless of gender, just for fun.

The dogs, in all three cases, at first tried to escape, then learned to put up with, then willingly took part in, then started emulating the behavior on the first homosexual dog and on other dogs.  Still, completely anecdotal and I didn't make any claim otherwise, but it did give me something to think about on the subject and I thought it was reasonable to share.

You're an awfully angry person, and you seem to be doing a lot more flaming (in the angry sense, not the gay sense, ha ha) than you do actually contributing to the conversation.  Congrats on managing to find a reason to insult someone who is presumably on your side of the argument (for tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality).  Congrats on coming in here and showing your ass on what was up until your entrance a relatively mature discussion. 

If this is where the rest of the conversation is going, I'm going to happily step out of it.  I'm interested in logical, mature, and respectful debate, not ad hominem ad nauseam.  Catch you all in the next thread over.
 
I didn't learn any of my sexual tastes ("normal" and otherwise ;) ) or behaviors from my parents.  Did your parents determine in any way what you find sexually interesting?  I would guess in your average healthy parent-child relationship they wouldn't.  I suggest it is more of an overall personality trait developed through a variety of predispositions and social influences.
Gender identity and sexual tastes are very different things. Many psychologists agree that we learn to be girls from mommy and boys from daddy, unless our brains are wired abnormally. On a bit of a tangent: even well-meaning, normal parents can inadvertently inspire a sexual quirk in their. They don't mean to, but it's known to happen.

The dogs, in all three cases, at first tried to escape, then learned to put up with, then willingly took part in, then started emulating the behavior on the first homosexual dog and on other dogs.  Still, completely anecdotal and I didn't make any claim otherwise, but it did give me something to think about on the subject and I thought it was reasonable to share.
Thank you, all I wanted was some elaboration.  :thumb:

You're an awfully angry person
This is a fact.

Congrats on managing to find a reason to insult someone who is presumably on your side of the argument (for tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality).
Your being on my side has nothing to do with your argument being potentially damaging to 'our' side. I eat my own, and won't slink away from disagreeing with you even if you agree on principle.
 
damn so if its a pill that can make a gay dude straight, is it a pill that can make a straight dude gay too?

so if i tell these dudes im gay, ill get some free pills??
 
Cruelty":1p8x9jqw said:
damn so if its a pill that can make a gay dude straight, is it a pill that can make a straight dude gay too?

so if i tell these dudes im gay, ill get some free pills??
I have to wonder what you expect it to accomplish, but I'm all for finding out.  :lol:
 
silver wind":2gtk430w said:
2. what is "love"? do you believe in 'love at first sight'?
   I believe we can control who we love. meaning, people choose to be gay.
   No,it is not a disease - gay people claim they can't control it, cause they don't
   want to. they don't think it's a bad thing.

I COMPLETELY AGREE.  ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.  And it's about time somebody gets it through their thick skulls.

Homosexuality, while occasionally is there from birth, is also a choice.  Many homosexuals, whether they know it or not, choose it.  However - because it's a choice doesn't mean that we have any right to condemn them for it, nor can we tell people how to life.  Here, think of it this way.

Homosexuality turns out to be innate - They can't help it.  Let them live how they want.  Fuck off and leave them alone.

Homosexuality turns out to be a choice - They have all the freedom in the world to do what they like, and it's really none of your business if they actively choose to do it with a member of their own sex.  Let them live how they want.  Fuck off and leave them alone.

"Homosexuality is a choice" is no reason to condemn it.  Stop making it out to be, christfags.

edit: lumi is a faggot :3
 

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