Curing Homosexuality?

[Sonata]

I really don't want to click that link.

 

[Diaforetikos]

I wanna get some things straight. I am not a homophobic. I don't care if your gay or not. I'm not gonna tease you or say your dumb. I won't support you, but I wont hate against you. I am just stating how I feel on the subject.

Now, as for choice, I still am sticking to my words. It is logically a choice. Now, I have not experienced what it feels like to be gay. The hate, the confusion. I don't think I ever will. Its not that I don't want to be gay or because of all the stress it takes to live a homosexual life. I choose not to be gay because of my beliefs. But as I grow and learn things, I realize, we have a choice. Not every decision is easy or the right one. So many influences, so many so called natural thoughts. Its sad how America is, but we have a choice. Homeless people choose to be homeless. Now some my be stuck in a rut or life just isn't working in their favor, but they choose how to react to a situation, they can choose if they wanna be homeless. If they don't want to be, they will find a way not to be. We choose if we like what we like based off our experiences, and our influences. I like Drum & Bass. Thats based on influence. Now I can stop liking Drum & Bass if I choose at anytime, but I like drums and I like bass too much to give it up. But I choose to like it. I like women. That choice is based of all of the my previous statements(our experiences, and our influences). There isn't anyone gay in my family. I like the touch of women, and everything about them. And I have experienced God(or what "I" believe is God) and I believe in his Word and base my life around it. I don't know if you guys read my quotes from the bible about homosexuality. Those are what I base my belief towards homosexuality off of. Now I can choose to give up women and try men out. I would choose it.

The DNA structure is unique, but it doesn't take your parents belief on sexuality and place it in us. I can't prove that. But the way DNA seems to work is by taking our looks and our voice and some of our personality and put it into us. Now the way we act towards stuff is based off how we were raised, what morales the parents put into the children, and the beliefs the parents have on life.

We can change our religions and belief on life. It has been scientifically proven that the mind strives for some form of spiritual experience. The mind changes and reacts to spiritual experiences(really off topic, but thought it was important). So when a child changes their view on religion from what their parent viewed as religion, they choose to believe something else. If we could choose religion when we are born, then we can choose or sexual orientation. Both of them are veiws people have. They pass down to children as the child grows and as children experience new things. So you can't tell me you didn't choose not to be a homosexual.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Your religious.
That's fine.  I applaud you for standing up on that.  Use it to be the ground you base your foundation on.  Everybody should be able to do such things, to take their own personal morals and standings and concrete them.  Make them something nearly tangible on a personal level.

But those who do should remember that even concrete cracks and breaks.  Lifting it up as something special and whole is merely going to make it harder to stand.  Your arguments are losing ground merely because this is what you've done.

You stood on your religious belief, and when any shakiness came you lifted it over your head - obviously I'm not being literal - for us better to see it with, and in thus lost footing.

I don't believe in your God.  That mere fact proves that He or His words mean very little to me outside of respecting someone's belief.  You can lift it as high as you want but it's only going to make you sink further under it's weight, as I see it, in this debate.  I mean that as no insult.  If the tone is insulting, hope you understand it is merely the mood in which this entire day has ranked in pressure.

But please.  Give one argument that does not involve God, faith, or even religion iconography and notion in any sense.  They are but fiction to me, as I'm sure my faith would be to you.  I won't come here expecting you to change your mind if I started pointing at things said in Mody Dick.

All you've done is tell everyone the concrete you stood on and now hold over your head says so, and so it is.  I see no logic behind people choosing to decide to react to a gunshot let alone how someone can chose to be gay or straight, guess what I'm straight and I didn't choose it.  I'm the empirical outsider, a dramatic liar and a thief I relish in the romantic and the outside.  In person in the really real world away from this internet I'm a very contradictionary person who at times is shy and other times seeks the attention - surely at one point I would decide to be gay for a day.  I value the surprise of shock and the ability to offend, to cause people to take a step back is something I absolutely pride.  I have no notion that homosexuality is wrong in any case.  Likewise I have gone out of my way to be something I'm not dozens of times in my younger days, surely if I can chose all these things how come I've never once been gay outside of - "Well, it might be nice for a bit"?

Especially considering all the other "Well, it might be nice for a bit" moments have come and gone.  Knowing most of my friends, and my complete manwhore status - hell even on the forums - I would most certainly have chosen to be gay had the opportunity arose.  I can't.  Just like I can't chose to be republican or liberal.  I merely am what I am.  If life forces a situation on you, you do not chose.  If it is experience that choses your sexuality for you, then you do not chose.

 

[Diaforetikos]

Very understandable sixty. I see what you mean when I talk about God. I'll try to leave him out.

On the subject of choice, every rich person I've met or read about talks about being positive and being negative. Now the basic human doesn't give 2 thoughts on this subject. They see it as a "natural choice." But my mind has drifted from the basic and onto deep speculation. I constantly ask myself, should I be doing that, should I be acting or thinking this way. "Stay positive," is what they all say. Easier said than done, when all my life I haven't even thought about being negative or positive in that way. The rich people I talk to or read about tell me how they achieved what they have. They stayed positive. Now what does positivity have to do with choice and homosexuality? They chose a better life, meaning, they chose to be positive, no matter what. They explained so many situations when they could have reacted negatively to something but decided to stay positive. And not just, "he cut me off, I'm pissed," kinda way but, "I can't stop using heroine, but I'm gonna quit and live a better life," kinda way. Through the most challenging hardships in life, they chose to strive for more. Never quiting. Always choosing for a better life.

Peoples views on life are so small. We try to achieve very little. We set small goals in life. Not thinking about staying positive because we think it happens naturally. Now a average guy using drugs, then becoming addicted may not be able to stay positive and quit. But hes average. Only thinking linear. If he were to just choose a better life, nothing could stop him from achieving what he wanted, if he wanted it bad enough. What does this have to do with homosexuality being a choice? A lot. We think our little lives are chosen for us due to our habits. How many of you can honestly say that you have thought this way before? Thought that if I change my thinking, maybe my life will be better. Honestly. No lies. Not many of you. If you can choose to change your addicted mindset to a succeeding one, you can choose to be homosexual or not.

Now many of you are gonna say its natural, and that you were born a homosexual. How? Only after you grew up did you say you liked a certain sex. But that was after puberty, after you began to understand life, after you were influenced did you say you liked a certain sex. No one is born that way. What ever is in your heart will you actions show it. You chose to be that way after all the trials of early life did you decide. And for the people who say they tried being straight, you only failed because you chose to. If someone offered you a billion dollars and all you had to do was come up with 1,000 of the dollars in one day, wouldn't you find a way to get that 1,000 dollars. Same thing. You would try to make it happen. You chose to be like that. It was too hard to get use to so you gave up. I'm not saying its super horrible to be the way you chose to be, I'm just saying, when you gave up, you chose to be that way.

And for those who like being homosexuals and you didn't try to change, you just chose it. You decided you didn't want to change. After you grew up, after puberty, you subconsciously said, I'm a homosexual. Subconsciously you said that. It wasn't natural. You still chose it. And when it came to you consciously that you were a homosexual, you did nothing about it, meaning you gave into what you were and chose to be that way. Your choice.

 

[Sithjester]

Now many of you are gonna say its natural, and that you were born a homosexual. How? Only after you grew up did you say you liked a certain sex. But that was after puberty, after you began to understand life, after you were influenced did you say you liked a certain sex. No one is born that way. What ever is in your heart will you actions show it. You chose to be that way after all the trials of early life did you decide. And for the people who say they tried being straight, you only failed because you chose to. If someone offered you a billion dollars and all you had to do was come up with 1,000 of the dollars in one day, wouldn't you find a way to get that 1,000 dollars. Same thing. You would try to make it happen. You chose to be like that. It was too hard to get use to so you gave up. I'm not saying its super horrible to be the way you chose to be, I'm just saying, when you gave up, you chose to be that way.

And for those who like being homosexuals and you didn't try to change, you just chose it. You decided you didn't want to change. After you grew up, after puberty, you subconsciously said, I'm a homosexual. Subconsciously you said that. It wasn't natural. You still chose it. And when it came to you consciously that you were a homosexual, you did nothing about it, meaning you gave into what you were and chose to be that way. Your choice.

Okay, now you're ticking me off. What the HELL authority do you think you have to make such statements? What you are doing is MAKING STUFF UP and deciding you believe it. That's it. None of what you just said is true. NONE of it.

Get this through your head. You DO NOT KNOW since YOU ARE NOT GAY.

Why are you so bloody obsessed with wanting it to be a choice in the face of vast evidence to the contrary, including friggin' actual gay people telling you otherwise? Because you're bisexual and don't want to be, so you're rationalizing it by believing that all straight people feel that way? Because you're so religious and don't think god would make gay people but turn around and claim it's a sin? WHY? What on earth do YOU gain by believing it's a choice?

I am telling you for the last time, as a GAY PERSON who has known lots of gay people, who has extensively studied human sexuality. IT. IS. NOT. A. CHOICE.

And for the record (to the general audience now), even though nobody knows the real cause of sexuality, if I were to make an educated guess, I'd say conditions in the womb. Mom's hormones and such. That really makes the most sense, I think, and would explain the big brother thing (studies done that show the more boys a woman has, the more chance each one has of being gay. I don't know why a similar study  hasn't been done on girls, but for what it's worth, I have a couple older sisters. lol)

There. I'm done. lol I'm normally a very sweet (and shy. No, really!) person, but people like this frost me. People who choose willful ignorance, and go on to tell me they know more about my own life than I do, rub me the wrong way.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

And for the record (to the general audience now), even though nobody knows the real cause of sexuality, if I were to make an educated guess, I'd say conditions in the womb. Mom's hormones and such. That really makes the most sense, I think, and would explain the big brother thing (studies done that show the more boys a woman has, the more chance each one has of being gay. I don't know why a similar study  hasn't been done on girls, but for what it's worth, I have a couple older sisters. lol)

Just to point out that I sentence in there to be funny.  Essentially I'm reading it as the more you have, the better the chance of the alternative.

Like how the more kids you have, the better chance one will be famous.  I know that sounded odd, but...

As far as the guess for sexuality, I believe I already covered or touched on this in this thread - in fact I know I did, I juts found the post :D
I believe I had also referrenced this in the Gary Sanucci (sp?) thread I too started.  I was watching this nice little documentary on I believe Discovery on the research done on homosexuality as far as a natural state could be concerned, and this is what I had posted:

Homosexuality can be explained in genetics.  I'm not saying it's proven, not yet.  Will it?  Who knows, maybe we're wrong.  But a current belief and one I can clearly see comes in the development of a child.

This is where nature is instilled.  The reptilian brain, the bodily quirks, the whole bang whatever, all of our prepositioned default natures and what allows us to have those natural patterns, such as parts of the brain.  Our body starts to grow.  We start off with neither a penis or a vagina, ovaries or testicles.  But somewhere along the lines, something splits, changes, and either the penis either exits or becomes a clitoris, and the testicles either drop or become ovaries.

At this point it is believed our very genetic structure for all our trait sets is put together.  I think that's saying a bit much, but at the very least our human survival patterns - including procreation, is established.  It's dormant and will come with the hormones and all that.  Now, it is believed currently that shortly after the sexing I just mentioned, your brain is designed for your new body.  But, sometimes things can go wrong.

Our brain develops as a male, or partly male, though our bodies never did.  Perhaps our bodies develop to be 100% male, but our mind, our brain, never got the memo and tried to catch up, maybe not, and that part of the brain matures as a female, which is the easier (and oddly more complex) for the body to produce. And our genetics fucked us.

Not because we are now "different", no.  I like redheads over blonds, others love blonds, but we're not different.  So Steve is attracted to Adam, big deal.  No that's not why, if it's true, that our genetics "fucked us".  It's because the rest of us didn't get a strand telling us that we're on the same damn level, happiness is not dictated by holy marriages, that it isn't dictated by the opposite sex, and it isn't dictated by out dated old school values.

So, there are lots of people in the scientific community, at least enough to warrant a long enough chapter in the documentary for me to take notice and actually remember, who do believe that a state in the womb is the obvious.

Other people have tried to say fetishes are genericly genetic.  That someone's lust for pain could in turn be passed on to a child, or a grand child, etc.  Which really scares me, I don't want to know what my parents are into based on what I am :x

Either way, some believe our ordinary preferences are genericly genetic.  As I said before I like redheads over blondes, and some claim that is a genetic thing.  I've also got a lot of Scottish and Irish heritage in me, so the red head thing almost makes sense.  So yeah...

oh and while I was rereading I kind of sound like I'm calling homosexuality a birth defect, which would be far from what I intended.

 

[Diaforetikos]

I must be weird then because I swear I subconsciously became aware that I was straight. Then it hit me consciously. I'm weird then because I thought everyone had a subconscious.

So your telling me you never told yourself you were gay? Never? That doesn't make any sense. At some point in life everyone thinks to themselves that question? If you haven't, I must be weird. My friends have. I have. My brother has. Were straight, but I have consciously asked myself if I really was. Then I came to the conclusion that I was and left it at that. I chose to stay straight. I did think about the idea that I was gay, but I didn't bite. So I decided I was straight. I chose. I'm so weird.

And I just read many scriptures on my own stating how being a homosexual is a sin. I've told the moderator that I wouldn't speak God in these forums so I'm shutting up now.

Sixty, it did sound like a birth defect. Could you clear that up for me.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Sixty, it did sound like a birth defect. Could you clear that up for me.

I can try, though I'm willing I'll sound offensive to either side.  So I'm throwing the political correctness out the window and just hope that my intent and not the stifling of type takes effect.  Either way I'm sure my pretentious streak will ring.

I'm going to start by defining a birth defect:
Structural, functional or developmental abnormalities present at birth or later in life, due to genetic or non-genetic factors acting before birth.

If homosexuality is a genetic thing, we must look at it in those ways.
Is it a structural deal?  No.
Is it a functional deal?  Only if we consider the human function in one of many stances.  First you must accept as truth that man fornicates with woman only, and that woman fornicates with man only, as a consensus of nature, and that is one of humans very functions in life.
Is it a developmental deal?  Only if you consider it so, similar to the above.

Now the problem is, I don't.
I don't view humanity to have any goal scientifically.  There are creatures who have a goal.  There are entire species who are built to lessen the damage of others.  Certain flies that breed only when certain ants are angered, the smell the ants secrete sparks a mating frenzy, and eggs are injected into the ants.  The flies eat exactly what is found in the ant's nests, and nothing more.  The flies also live in cycles seemingly designed with the cycles of the ant in mind.  They flies even are born immune to a chemical the ants secret in their bowls that would kill them otherwise.

The fly has a goal.  To control the population of the ant by merely breeding.

I don't believe humans have a similar goal.  We are an adaptive race, and if any goal exists for us we either lost it years ago or it is merely that.  To adapt.  We adapted ourselves and our surroundings for our survival, and we do so comfortably.  It is very possible that our next adaptation is homosexuality to slim our over population.  It's not a far fetch if you consider certain things.  In which case homosexuality is abruptly normal and natural.  I don't consider such things, but hey - someone does.

Me?  I say we have the ability to adapt.  People speak of evolutionary pit stops, that if homosexuality was indeed a genetic thing it would be thrown out.  You earlier spoke of animal homosexuality and equated it to intelligence, but if it is truly a genetic thing - no intelligence will out survive it.  We have the ability, as I said in my opinion, to adapt to our surroundings and make of them as we will.  We also have in our evolutionary trails - which you would have to believe for this to make sense - random traits that appear, some eventually disappear.  If homosexuality was a trait that would endanger our being, and thus would be eradicated - then why aren't other like traits?

Paranoia is not a birth defect.  It is however genetic.  My family suffers from it, and I suffer more than any family member I know.  There are certain members here who know how bad I can get.  One time I even had to get online and talk to someone, and happened to be IRC messages, I simply could not leave the bed room.  Something didn't allow me.

Wouldn't paranoia be a trait that too would be eradicated, though it is genetic.  At least I'd say so since it runs in packs in my family.  My upbringing to that of my parents, and their parents, are all drastically different.  The chances of it being taught behavior is something rather slim, since my mother never admitted to it or let us view it until I was 13 and already having paranoia attacks.

So yeah, I'm sure I'm running in circles now.  I pretty much just states how it is a birth defect and then tried to cop out I'm sure it seems.  I should probably not have mentioned any of that above heh.

But then again Brushfields is a genetic deformity of the eyes, creating white/grayish spots.  Except for the fact that they are linked heavily to those with Downs Syndrome (particularly of the Caucasian races), the life of a child is not different in function, development, or structure in the surreal sense.  The only thing is the structure of the eye is slightly aggregated in the connective tissue, creating these spots.  So for my following statement, I am not referring to those with Brushfield Spots and Downs Syndrome, but the plentiful amount of new borns who simply have Brushfield Spots.

A birth defect, but not a bad one.  One that, minus some child hood teasing, doesn't affect one's ability to be at all.  And if homosexuality can be called a birth defect, I'd say it's more like Brushfields spots (minus the heavy link to Downs Syndrome of course) and that except for a little childish teasing, doesn't affect one's ability to be at all.

Wow I have no idea what I said, and I'm willing to bet I contradicted my intent a thousand times over and came off sounding completely anathema to what I wanted.  I really should sleep more and ramble less.

Far more likely I'd say that we adapted the ability to experience life as a separate being.  That we aren't flies destined to be born in an ants belly, eat our way out of the ant, then anger the ant to mate.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat.  A thousand times over even though we are dead, repeat.  What one fly does, the other does.  We adapted our own ability to remove constraints and experience life to it's fullest as a species, and one can not do that merely with the strict order.  We adapted into creating sex roles, and then we found them constrictive so we adapted out of them.  We adapt to every restriction put on us, including those we put on ourselves and when those become out dated we adapt.  Homosexuality is no more a birth defect then my hair being brown, and is no more wrong than my eyes being brown as well.  It is merely a life that has either adapted to it's surroundings, be it in the womb or in life, to be the best it could be.

 

[New2Ya]

And for those who like being homosexuals and you didn't try to change, you just chose it. You decided you didn't want to change. After you grew up, after puberty, you subconsciously said, I'm a homosexual. Subconsciously you said that. It wasn't natural. You still chose it. And when it came to you consciously that you were a homosexual, you did nothing about it, meaning you gave into what you were and chose to be that way. Your choice.

This is absolute bullshit.

Did it ever occur to you why gay people are in the 'closet'?

It's because they are not being accepted. And thus they act, live, like a straight person. Understood? They would rather live like a fake straight person, then say who they really are.

That's a choice they make.

Not them being gay. It's absolutely not a choice. Gheez, how thick is your head?

Actually this says it all, what I just wrote down. The fact that closet gays act straight, meaning THAT's their choice, not being gay. They're living a lie. Primary reason? They don't accept who they are. Almost any coming out advise you read is about how you first need to accept you're gay. That says it all.

With one simple answer, I demolished your beliefs and that of those who know for certain it's a choice.

Another simple way to explain you why its not a choice is the fact you don't choose to be gay. It's not because you just dont feel like it, that's the most hilarious explanation you can give.

It's because you don't feel attracted to men (women if youre female). You dont get aroused by the same sex. You dont feel like kissing the same sex. You dont get butterflies when you see someone from the same sex you really like. You don't think about having sex with that person and probably are utter disgusted about even thinking it.

That's sexual attraction. THat's what's different about gay people.

On another note.

The DNA structure is unique, but it doesn't take your parents belief on sexuality and place it in us. I can't prove that. But the way DNA seems to work is by taking our looks and our voice and some of our personality and put it into us. Now the way we act towards stuff is based off how we were raised, what morales the parents put into the children, and the beliefs the parents have on life.

Funny how personality apparently in your theory is passed on by DNA, something that is SO easy to influence from outside, and yet sexual preference is a choice? Use that brain instead of sticking to beliefs which has absolutely no benefit for your sake.

The latter point you made in that quote on how parents influence children's way of acting with stuff. True, that influences children. That doesn't influence sexual preference however. What it would influence is the way those children look at the sexual preference.

If parents raise their children with portraying homosexuals as evil devil sinners that go to hell, and how disgusting it is? Yeah, the child will never come out of the closet. They're gay alright, but they would never EVER dare to say it. So you're right in that sentence, yet it actually goes against the whole point you're trying to make. Props!

 

[Diaforetikos]

Its still a choice though. Subconsciously, or consciously. You still choose to be attracted to what you like. I chose to stay straight. I thought to myself if I liked women. I did, and I decided to keep liking them. You still chose.

Deep down, your parents can change your sexual preference. Subconsciously they can. The only thing about that is that its subconscious. You'll never know how, but it happened.

I haven't set out and tried liking men. If I wanted to, I could. After mentally telling myself over and over that men are cute, I could point out what I like about them, create my likes and make them bigger as I get more use to them and slowly, but surely, I'll like men. Its not impossible. But I choose not too.

Now for the ones who are scared to come out of the closet because there gay, they haven't mentally accepted that they are gay. They haven't literally chosen yet. And for the ones who still hide, they feel ashamed because of the lifestyle they chose. Mentally, or subconsciously, you still chose.

You may not know it, but you choose your life. It doesn't just play out like a random movie. Your little absent minded decisions are still choices.

Your body is saying its hungry. Now you can sit there and believe your hungry, or you could say bs, im not hungry and let it go. I've done that many times. No lie. No bs. I'm serious. Now if  you don't have that kind of control over yourself... I'm sorry. But I chose.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I have an issue still with the whole choice of attraction.

All my life as far as I can remember I've been attracted to people I don't want to be.  Look at my first crush in my memory, maybe the 2nd or 3rd grade or whatever.  I didn't want that, I wanted to like the brunette every other boy who had a crush was crushing on.  But that didn't happen.

Look at high school.  I wasn't attracted to chicks I wanted to be attracted to, most of the time I didn't want that.  Conflicts and this that and the next thing.  Either I'm hard wired for the girl I wouldn't want, not that I couldn't want, or wasn't allowed to want (so don't think that), or I just don't get lucky enough to be attracted to the right situation.  My choice was to act on it or not, not the attraction itself.

 

[New2Ya]

Its still a choice though. Subconsciously, or consciously. You still choose to be attracted to what you like. I chose to stay straight. I thought to myself if I liked women. I did, and I decided to keep liking them. You still chose.

No, that is not how it works. I don't know what age you are, or if you're actually human, cause right now you sound like a 3-year-old monkey. That's not a compliment.

Your logics sound like that of a person from two thousand years ago. Maybe during Jesus' time people would understand your reasonings, but we've advanced so far this sounds like the most utter crap.

You like women, thus you chose to continue liking them? Have you any understanding of the concept of what sexual preference is? It may sound like a choice, preference->prefer, but what it means is your sexual attraction. Some feel it for same sex, some for opposite, some for both. They act on that soley, they dont choose to continue with it or try something else.

This is ridiculous.

Deep down, your parents can change your sexual preference. Subconsciously they can. The only thing about that is that its subconscious. You'll never know how, but it happened.

Maybe in your fairy tale. Look, I can make up a lot of stuff too and say it's subconsciously, as there is no way to proof I'd be wrong.

However, sexual preference is not something you learn. It's something you have. Adopted children by gay couples dont become gay. They become what they are from the start, from their birth, which is either gay or straight. Their parents dont influence that.

It's the simple fact that they cant get aroused. For people who dont understand what that means, they cant get a stiffy from the opposite sex/same sex, regarding their sexual preference.

I haven't set out and tried liking men. If I wanted to, I could. After mentally telling myself over and over that men are cute, I could point out what I like about them, create my likes and make them bigger as I get more use to them and slowly, but surely, I'll like men. Its not impossible. But I choose not too.

So in your knowledge, everyone is actually gay, they just need to live by it?

Now for the ones who are scared to come out of the closet because there gay, they haven't mentally accepted that they are gay. They haven't literally chosen yet. And for the ones who still hide, they feel ashamed because of the lifestyle they chose. Mentally, or subconsciously, you still chose.

You just said it!! You choose to ACT on it. That has nothing to do with the fact they're gay. They're gay, they don't act on it. That's their choice.

Not them being gay.

You may not know it, but you choose your life. It doesn't just play out like a random movie. Your little absent minded decisions are still choices.

Oh I know a lot of stuff, trust me.

Your body is saying its hungry. Now you can sit there and believe your hungry, or you could say bs, im not hungry and let it go. I've done that many times. No lie. No bs. I'm serious. Now if  you don't have that kind of control over yourself... I'm sorry. But I chose.

That's not special, mate, we can all pretend we're not hungry.

However, that doesnt mean we're not. The fact that you're hungry is because your stomach is empty. Your brain tells you to eat. It needs food.

You telling yourself you're not hungry only makes you mentally believe youre not hungry, yet you are. Eventually you'll die because your body cant get any fuel. Or you'll become anorexic.

Same for homosexuality. You can deny it, yes, but that doesnt change the way you are.

And the problem with sexuality is that you cant hide it as a man. If you cant get 'it' up with the opposite sex, you either have erection problems or you're gay. Simple as that. Now sure there are tricks, but a) you're lying to yourself, b) you're lying to your wife, c) she knows you're lying if she slept with other men before and knows how quick they get them up and d) you will always feel a deep need to have sexual intercourse with men.

Painful, but that's just it.

Choice: acting on your sexuality.
No choice: your sexuality.

Read that a few times, just to let it sink in.

 

[GrooveMan.exe]

I suppose if you wanted to be harsh, then yeah, homosexuality is a 'birth defect'. Just like having a different hair colour or eye colour to your parents is a 'birth defect'. Just like (since the Y chromosome that makes people male is technically a mutant X chromosome) being male is a 'birth defect'.

I would say that Your genes and hormones go a long way to determine your sexuality (bearing in mind that there is a degree of deviation between your parent's genes and yours. You aren't a perfect fusion of your parents (as a side note, you are now picturing your parents fused together. There's a nice mental image for ya), after all. Thereafter, the remaining bits and pieces are filled in by experiences and environment.

This brings up a new analogy. It could be argued that your sexuality could be compared to your personality, intelligence, or metabolism. It's hard-wired into you from birth; it has a degree of variation from your parents, and you can't actively choose to change it. Yeah, that's right. In the same way you can't choose to be stupid, or you can't choose do digest your lunch faster, you can't choose who you'd like to bone.

But these factors do change. But obviously that's not by choice, it's by environment. You don't choose to become intelligent, you become intelligent by experiencing education. And how goddamn long does that take? You don't choose to change your metabolism, rigorous routines of exercise and diet force that change? And how long does that take?

So, a change in sexuality *could* be possible, you can't choose it. You have to expose yourself to experiences in order to force your original biological processes to change. This would obviously take a long time; and possibly result in mental trauma.

I wouldn't mind being straight, but GrooveMan haet mental stress.

 

[Dissonance]

Somebody answer this question please.  I've heard these quotes said over and over in this thread but nobody seems to be tackling the bigger issue here.

Show me proof that being gay isn't a choice, that it's some inborn occurence in a person?

Is there actually any proof homosexuality is genetic?

As with Anglachel, I haven't read the whole post either, but I will say this. Homosexuality is a choice. Now people will say no its not, I don't want to be like this or I was born like this. You can't be born a homosexual. Impossible. Our organs don't allow it. And it is a choice because if you really didn't want to be that way you would take action and try to change yourself.

Anyone can choose. Plain and simple. You have a choice. Convincing yourself isn't easy but we do have a choice.

And for those who like being homosexuals and you didn't try to change, you just chose it. You decided you didn't want to change. After you grew up, after puberty, you subconsciously said, I'm a homosexual. Subconsciously you said that. It wasn't natural. You still chose it. And when it came to you consciously that you were a homosexual, you did nothing about it, meaning you gave into what you were and chose to be that way. Your choice.

The general gist of these quotes is that "Homosexuality is not natural, it's a choice".

So what?

Let's assume that homosexuality is a choice, alright?  For the purposes of this upcoming question, every homosexual chose to have sex with a member of their own gender.  They might not admit it, but they did.  Active choice.  Is that a good enough reason to try and stop people?

Where is the logical connection here between "Homosexuality is a choice" and "We should try to stop people from being homosexual"?  Even if people DO actively choose to be gay that's not a good enough reason to tell them to stop.

 

[GrooveMan.exe]

'Natural' is a bit of a tricky word here. Assuming the theory about hormones and mutation occuring during stages of pregancy and birth is true; then the process is natural in the sense that it occurs without any men-made influences. However, you could argue that the mutation itself isn't a natural process. Then there's the fact that being gay would override (or at least alter) the basic need to procreate (That's NEED, not 'ability'. Gay people are stil biologically capable of having children).

Hmm. Might we say that Homosexuality is a 'natural' ocurrence, but biologically 'abnormal'? It's a harsh way of putting it, but it's not as open for misunderstanding.

 

[New2Ya]

Yeah but seriously, what is the problem with homoseuxality in the first place?

I think what bothers people are fags. Queers.

Hell, even I, who supports people to be gay if they are, feel very uncomfortable among queers.

The problem is, queer is not necessarily gay. There are enough people who act queer (men acting extremely feminine and especially their speech, women acting like a man and sounding like one) but are heterosexual.

And there are more than enough gay people who act nothing like so called queers and seem to be heterosexual.

People associate queer attitude with being gay.

 

[Celesinator]

I'm bi (people say it doesn't exsist, but I REALLY do like both guys a girls.) But I'm still going to marry a man when I grow up.

I wouldn't want to be cured. I like being who I am. A sweet, innocent, little girl (Sweet? Innocent? C'mon... I'm kidding myself, I MUST!)

But the type of gay's I hate are girly gays. God... they are disturbing. They act like freaks and.. well.. chicks!

 

[Dissonance]

I'm bi (people say it doesn't exsist, but I REALLY do like both guys a girls.) But I'm still going to marry a man when I grow up.

This doesn't mean that you're bi.  This means that you're a shallow highschool chick who is attempting to pass herself off as worldly and mature.

If you really were bi you would marry whoever you fell in love with when you 'grew up' regardless of gender.

 

[Ellie]

There's different levels of bi.

For example, you might be more than happy to screw your best (boy) friend, but would rather screw your other (girl) friend. Or the other way around. Or, you might not be choosy and could go either way, (pan I think it's called).

 

[thelivingphoenix]

This doesn't mean that you're bi.  This means that you're a shallow highschool chick who is attempting to pass herself off as worldly and mature.

If you really were bi you would marry whoever you fell in love with when you 'grew up' regardless of gender.

Perhaps she's choosing to marry a man when she "grows up" because doing anything else would be unacceptable to her family or something.  Maybe she's attracted to the same sex, but doesn't want to complicate her life by getting romantically involved with someone of the same sex and if that's the truth, it's completely justifiable. You don't get to decide who is gay or bi simply because they don't fit your criteria of what being gay or bi means.  Just because she wants to marry a man when she's older doesn't mean she isn't what she says she is and I really don't see where you have any grounds to say that she isn't bi just because she wants to marry a man.  Being gay or bi is about sexual preference, not about lifestyle preference.  You can be gay or bi and choose to not live the lifestyle.

And as far as there being a "cure" for homosexuality, no, there isn't one, because it's not a disease.  The thoughts are not a choice.  But, dwelling on those thoughts and playing them out in your mind?  Acting on those thoughts?  Those are choices that you have the ability to make and according to the Bible, a thought such as that does not become a sin until you actually entertain the thought in your mind or carry it out.  You make a choice to either continue living that lifestyle or to stop.  Being gay isn't a sin; living the lifestyle is.  "Hate the sin, not the sinner."

And the problem that Christians have with homosexuals for the most part isn't that they're gay; I could personally care less whether my next door neighbor is gay or not.  It's the fact that most Christians believe people who actively practice a homosexual lifestyle are going to hell and we don't want anyone we know to become involved in a homosexual lifestyle because of that.  If a Christian person tells you you should stop being gay, it's because they don't want you to go to hell; it's not because they just think it's gross or that you should just fit in with them, in most cases.  They just don't want you to go to hell. 

I don't exactly want gay people going to schools and teaching kids what being gay means and that it's okay to be gay without giving me as a parent the option to make sure that they don't go to that lecture.  That's something that I as a parent would have the right to teach my children about, because it's an alternative lifestyle.  You can say whatever you want, but it isn't natural.  Just like I don't want my kids exposed to other certain things or activities that could hurt them, I also don't want them exposed to the idea of being homosexual until they're older and able to understand the social and spiritual consequences of living that way.  You cannot live in unrepentant sin and go to heaven.  Which means you cannot live a lifestyle that you know is in direct contradiction to scripture and be able to get to heaven if you feel no guilt over it.  You can slip and make mistakes and they're taken "off the books" if you repent, as long as you're sincere.  You can't just say a half-hearted prayer and expect to be forgiven.

I don't have a problem with gay people wanting to get married, because it's none of my business how they live their lives, but when they start trying to teach children that how they live is okay and that it's socially acceptable, that's different.  Such lectures have no place in the public school system and what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior concerning what type of lifestyle is "right" or "wrong" needs to be taught at home by parents who are supposed to be raising their kids instead of letting the state and civil rights groups do it for them.  If I found out my kids had gone to a "gay lecture" at school without the school informing me or having me sign a permission slip, I would probably pitch a fit.  Who are they to teach my kids about such things? I'll do that myself.  Children don't need to know about issues like "alternative" lifestyles until they're older and able to understand that it's a choice you make.  I don't have a problem with teaching my kids to be nice to gay people and not "persecute" them or anyone else for the way they live because I wouldn't want to be persecuted for what I believe, but I'll be the one to teach them whether being gay is "okay" or not, not the state.