Bury Your Dead?

[Venetia]

Why would you care? You're DEAD.

Why am I so weird about that? I don't know. I really don't. But it's my fucking body and if I have rights over anything, even dead, I have rights over that. It doesn't matter what my reasons are. I'm allowed to be selfish about MY VERY SELF.

I have a very real and true respect for the body. It should be handled with dignity and respect. And slicing it up 10 ways to Sunday and locking it naked in a freezer is not dignified nor respectful, to me, personally.

That's really my only reasoning for it. But that's all I really need. I respect your point of view, and I expect mine to be respected as well. You may not care so much about it, but it doesn't mean that everyone shares that opinion.

People in South America (well, in some parts, anyway), handle death with the respect I think it deserves. They take the body, wrap it in linen, and put it into a coffin immediately. They keep the body at their home for usually a day, so that people can visit it and grieve, and say their final goodbyes, in person, in the warmth of the home that person enjoyed. Then, the body is immediately buried or cremated, wearing their final suit. Even if it's only a vessel, it demands respect, because, after all, it is the last ACTUAL part of your loved one you have left. A person isn't an object, alive or dead, and I believe they deserve respect. Some of you guys disagree with me and that's fine, but I'm never going to give up believing in the importance of the body. I don't outright believe in anything metaphysical, but my beliefs in honor are really the only ones I have.


Death ... it's an intensely private and personal matter. There really can be no minds changed on it through "logic". So really the debate on the handling of the dead is rather pointless, because the only thing people can assert is their own stagnant beliefs.

 

[Stardust]

Death ... it's an intensely private and personal matter. There really can be no minds changed on it through "logic". So really the debate on the handling of the dead is rather pointless, because the only thing people can assert is their own stagnant beliefs.

Although it's true that no one's views are going to change, the entire topic has been "Why?"  Sixty is asking why the dead are so important to some people and why we create graves and mourn them.  It's not really a "See my views" thread; it's a "Why do you feel that way?" thread.

 

[FlippyD]

I'm never donating a single thing to science or otherwise. In fact, I don't even want an autopsy after I'm dead. Even if I'm murdered. I don't want any asshole whose job it is to wash/prep/cut up dead bodies to ever get near mine. I hate my job and it's boring as hell. They probably feel the same way. I don't ever want the only vessel I leave behind to be pawed at and left out while they grab a cup of coffee (I've visited morgues; sometimes they'll just leave bodies lying around totally naked and half-dissected while they go on break or they'll sit there and joke about scars and weirdly shaped appendages or whatever).

Why would you care? You're DEAD.

I'm totally with sixty on this and he's doing a good job so I actually don't have much to input here.

I want to write up a long reply to Guardian about the whole "closure" thing, but I have to keep reminding myself that I'm not a normal human being in regards to empathy and feelings. If one of my grandparents died tomorrow, I seriously don't think I'd shed a tear or even bat an eye. Even if my mother died tomorrow I doubt I would grieve very much. I might cry for a little bit with the whole trauma of it, because it would make for a very large change on the way I live my life, but the actual sadness and closure and stuff, I just don't do it and I don't get it.

When people are dead, they're dead. I don't understand why it's a big deal to the majority of people.

Well, my great uncle died last week, and we held the wake last wednesday, and despite him being extremely close with my family, and like the grandfather I didn't cry (actually, I was glad for my own personal reasons.)

Despite that I can understand why it's a big deal. I seriously doubt you don't understand the why behind it all. Someone close to you dies, you'll never be able to talk or hang out with them anymore. I see it as this: George Carlin makes me laugh, I like being around George Carlin and listening to George Carlin jokes because that makes me happy. Now that he's dead he can't write new material and make me laugh, or hang out which makes me happy. The concept of getting less laughter and happiness before saddens me.

Some people deal with sadness differently. Hell, my ex-fiancee was happy as a goddamn bird when we broke up, but cried to near hydration later. Autistic folks also deal with the concept differently. I would chalk you up as someone with a different way of dealing with tragedy, but there's too many goddamn "self-diagnosed" mental disorder types on the net and I really have a hard time believing you don't understand the big deal with death. But now I'm getting off-topic.

Also missingno, most folks believe there's a life after death, and that one day Jesus will come back and revive them from the dead. This is why most judeo-christian religions aren't too keen on the donating organs thing. You don't wanna show up to the second coming missing your eyeballs and shit. Jesus hates uggos.

I know I personally am not a donor because I don't want other people having my organs. I'm a greedy little son of a bitch and I accept that.

 

[Despain]

Guardian, I'm fully aware of what closure means and what it is, I just don't understand people's need for it. I guess it can be attributed to the fucked up way in which I view other humans and the world in general. Ever watch Dexter? It's about me.

I have a very real and true respect for the body. It should be handled with dignity and respect. And slicing it up 10 ways to Sunday and locking it naked in a freezer is not dignified nor respectful, to me, personally.

Sure, when someone's using it, then a body can be a pretty neato thing! But it's not a BODY BODY. It's a DEAD BODY. A corpse. An object. It's no more special than roadkill. Hell, it's no more special than the pencil lying next to my tablet. Actually, maybe less. Since I can't take notes with a dead body.

It serves no PURPOSE AT ALL. Other than to potentially provide food or organs. You're not using it anymore.

Death ... it's an intensely private and personal matter. There really can be no minds changed on it through "logic". So really the debate on the handling of the dead is rather pointless, because the only thing people can assert is their own stagnant beliefs.

That's my big problem, I tackle everything from a logical standpoing. For me, death isn't a personal thing at all. It just is.

Also missingno, most folks believe there's a life after death, and that one day Jesus will come back and revive them from the dead.

This argument is the only argument that makes sense at all for this topic. But when there are people who don't believe in this, the basis of their argument lies in "hey lol its my body dont take it >O", which is not only selfish, but pretty damn ignorant too.

 

[FlippyD]

This argument is the only argument that makes sense at all for this topic. But when there are people who don't believe in this, the basis of their argument lies in "hey lol its my body dont take it >O", which is not only selfish, but pretty damn ignorant too.

Selfish I'll give you, but I don't see ignorant.

 

[Despain]

A person isn't an object, alive or dead, and I believe they deserve respect.

A dead body isn't a person, though. It's just a BODY. It's not a person. My body isn't WHO I AM, it's WHAT I USE. It ENABLES ME TO LIVE, but I don't DEFINE MYSELF BY MY BODY.

I mean it's different for you as a female, what with all the media messages and shit, but that's clearly not on topic here.

But when you're dead, your body is just some hollow empty, BROKEN shell. You don't crack open a peanut and eat the inside, and then KEEP THE SHELL. It's trash and useless. It has no FUNCTION ANYMORE.

 

[Venetia]

9_9 ugh i'mma go eat a sammich ......

That's your belief, not mine.

 

[Despain]

It's not a belief. It's fact. The human body has no purpose once the person using it is dead (except for organ harvesting or food).

IT IS MY PERSONAL BELIEF THAT CARS CAN KEEP GOING WHEN THEY ARE TOTALLY OUT OF GAS

man i'd save a whole lot of money if that was true!!!

 

[FlippyD]

L.O.L.

That's all I have left to say on the subject.

 

[Stardust]

Guardian, I'm fully aware of what closure means and what it is, I just don't understand people's need for it. I guess it can be attributed to the fucked up way in which I view other humans and the world in general.

There really is no need for it.  It's an emotional and spiritual thing which can't be changed.  I am someone who needs closure.  You, however, don't.  It's that simple.

I have a very real and true respect for the body. It should be handled with dignity and respect. And slicing it up 10 ways to Sunday and locking it naked in a freezer is not dignified nor respectful, to me, personally.

Sure, when someone's using it, then a body can be a pretty neato thing! But it's not a BODY BODY. It's a DEAD BODY. A corpse. An object. It's no more special than roadkill. Hell, it's no more special than the pencil lying next to my tablet. Actually, maybe less. Since I can't take notes with a dead body.

It serves no PURPOSE AT ALL. Other than to potentially provide food or organs. You're not using it anymore.

Some believe that destroying the body will destroy the soul.  I personally don't care what happens to my body after I die because, like you said, I won't be needing it.  I agree with you on physical logic, but I disagree with you when it comes to emotional and spiritual matters.

I can, however, see how someone like Venetia feels.  Even if she's not using it, it's still hers.  It's the same as if you gave someone your car or something personal.  The only difference is you'd be much more attached to your body because you've been with it longer.

 

[Despain]

Even if she's not using it, it's still hers.  It's the same as if you gave someone your car or something personal.

But it's not hers anymore because she doesn't EXIST anymore. She doesn't own anything anymore. She's DEAD. She's not around to care or even KNOW what happens to her body. I mean she could put into her will or whatever that she wants to be buried in her clothes. That doesn't stop some creepy morgue worker from slipping his hand up her shirt and playing with her tits (that's a fun image :ratty. But she'll be DEAD so even if that is happening, she won't know or care. It'd be impossible.

 

[Despain]

man i can't believe i jut found a use for :ratty: in a serious post

 

[Venetia]

Des, you don't apply personal, sentimental ownership to fucking anything, you said it yourself. So you can't see from a sentimentalist's POV so kindly shut the hell up in trying to act like you actually know shit that's entirely based on sentimentality. It's fine if you have an opinion but I'm not trying to debunk you, I'm saying that this sort of thing isn't really the sort of thing that you can argue over because it's pointless. You're not proving a point, you're just making yourself sound like an emotionless existentialist while I sound more and more like a whacked "metaphysicalist", so give it up?

 

[Xaixis]

Spoiler: Ven's Long Post

We, the human race, I mean, have been enamored with death perhaps from the very first rudimentary settlements thousands of years ago. Entire cultures, such as the Egyptians, the Chinese, the South Americans, would devote entire lifetimes and coffer upon coffer of funds toward the preparation of the burial site.

Death is a mysterious thing, even now. It is the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how important you were, it doesn't matter if you were penniless. You will die. And regardless of any of our myths or theories about where our livelihood goes (aka "souls"), it still lays proof that the people still drawing breath have to deal with a tangible presence we left behind.

You're a person. You were born. You grew up. You drew breath. You knew people. They, in turn, knew you. You made, no matter how infinitesimal, an impact. People look to honor the dead, because they are honoring the fact that these empty shells once were alive, that they existed.

Personally, I'd prefer cremation whenever I go, for the simple fact that it seems sad to me to think of my body lying bereft and alone for decades or centuries in some little deserted park somewhere. But to other people, this is the best form of honor, because it proves that they once drew breath, that they existed, that they made an small impact on the world they knew.

If we were to ignore the immense importance of honoring the dead, it would not only be spitting on thousands of years of our very heritage, but it would be denying those people and their lineage the peace of knowing that their existence in the world is not totally forgotten.

Sometimes people go overboard on funerals, but who are you to tell them that they cannot? If it's a person's final wish, or a family's wish, to see that they/a loved one is honored in a traditional way, it would be a horrific plight on mankind to deny them that.

All a man truly owns in this world is his life. And when that's gone, should we simply shirk it entirely? Shrug it off as if it never mattered to anyone? To most people, that is a disgusting and insulting thought.

Yes, the practice of burial is an ancient tradition that is perhaps unnecessary in modern times. However, in denying it, we would be losing a huge and very fundamental facet of our very humanity.

---

Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at when you're talking about people who need organs or when scientists need to study cadavers. Are you saying that the state should just waive a family's right to own their loved one's body, and acquisition it, like a piece of property?

If I say I don't want my organs to go to anyone after I pass on, who are you to tell me I don't have that right?

And are you saying that, after a natural disaster, it's unimportant to confirm deaths and relinquish bodies to their families? That's absurd

Lastly, you have to pay for burial plots. If a family wants to lay an empty coffin because there is no body to bury, and they want to pay for that, that's their prerogative and no one has a right to deny them that. I don't really care if room is running out for housing. You can always move? Generally nowadays, cemeteries are built way out in the outskirts of a city so it won't affect housing. Old cemetaries--well, it would be a rather disgusting thing to do, to just build right over it. That's the whole dishonoring thing I was talking about earlier.

*Agrees*

I was about to post something similar but what more can I say?


Oh and Des...  :crazy: you are a sick little man  :grin:

 

[decemberfox]

I actually agree with Des. After you die, what does it matter what happens to your body? You'll probably shudder at the idea of someone robbing your grave or disposing of your corpse in a careless fashion, but by that time I'm sure you won't give a crap - because you're dead! Being buried in a box is a total waste of the coffin, headstone, space and your body. I would prefer that I made a meal for a hungry dog than I simply rotted in the ground - the result is the same, although a dog would be much faster - nothing will be left but bones. Possibly gnawed bones, but what does it matter - you're dead!

Sixty has great points about cemeteries taking up too much space, if the decision came to me then I would make organ donation then cremation compulsory. A lot of people would be pissed about the idea of what's happening, but they would get over it soon enough (people dread their deaths anyway, it'd just make the idea of it even less appealing - but hey, maybe it'll stop teen suicide!) and it would work really well for everything except people peace of mind. And that doesn't matter a lot in the grand scheme of things.

 

[FlippyD]

Sixty has great points about cemeteries taking up too much space, if the decision came to me then I would make organ donation then cremation compulsory. A lot of people would be pissed about the idea of what's happening, but they would get over it soon enough (people dread their deaths anyway, it'd just make the idea of it even less appealing - but hey, maybe it'll stop teen suicide!) and it would work really well for everything except people peace of mind. And that doesn't matter a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Or you'd be killed in office and your corpse paraded triumphantly through the town like a ghastly puppet. When it comes to ideas that touch religion people are the most unyielding. Besides, I'd rather be cremated, and then let my remains be thrown into the faces of crying orphans.

And who's to say teen suicide should be prevented? Cutting down on the psychological problem that causes teens to "an hero" over stupid shit would be a better idea. I'm stopping here before I get into crazy thoughts about suicide.

 

[Shadow_Strike]

Easy solution, buy a grave stone, cook and eat the body. Now you are one with your love, who's vitamins and minerals are forever encased within your tissue and bone. No wasted space. TA-DA!

 

[kyonides]

People discovered in... I guess it was in Papua Guinea, that a tribe ate the corpses of their beloved ones and some of them (about 50%?) contracted some sort of crazy cow-like syndrom that didn't allow them to move freely. Many of them died because of it...

Some centuries ago, there was a war (actually some sort of skirmishes) where many "soldiers" (they weren't professionals, though) died and no one buried their corpses as anyone would expected to do. Soon after the end of the war the cholera killed a lot of people, this time the deaths were many times as much as the ones caused by the conflict itself. It should have been a hard lesson for those people who survived...

 

[gamingfan1989]

I really don't care how you choose to dispose of your dead.

I personally take missingno's stance (except for the necrophiliac part :/).  I'd really like my body to be cremated, the thought of my body rotting underground just creeps me out.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

People discovered in... I guess it was in Papua Guinea, that a tribe ate the corpses of their beloved ones and some of them (about 50%?) contracted some sort of crazy cow-like syndrom that didn't allow them to move freely. Many of them died because of it...

It's called cooking

Some centuries ago, there was a war (actually some sort of skirmishes) where many "soldiers" (they weren't professionals, though) died and no one buried their corpses as anyone would expected to do. Soon after the end of the war the cholera killed a lot of people, this time the deaths were many times as much as the ones caused by the conflict itself. It should have been a hard lesson for those people who survived...

it's called not leaving the dead just laying around the place :p