Vegetarianism: A new path

[Nachos]

Plants are lifeforms,, easier to get, :P

vegetarians dont like killing animal cos they are "alive".. plant are alive too... if they could scream , I'm sure they wouldnt eat them.

 

[___]

You want to know what would happen if everyone suddenly became a Vegetarian Dynasty?
The sudden drop in carnivorous activity would mean that all sources of meat, like livestock for instance, would have a leap in population size. These creatures that we eat are mostly herbivores themselves. They would be a great danger to human food sources. Guess what would have to happen? Governments would initiate "Population control". Millions of animals would die, and then what? Because no one is going to eat them, they'll rot in assigned dump sites and become a waste.
It is a known fact that herbivores tend to grow larger than carnivores. In a few hundred years time, our bodily mass would require nearly twice of what we eat today to stay fully nourished.
In any case, more problems would arise than solved if we suddenly or even gradually became solely herbivores. Not to mention plant life would be heavily scarred by mass consumption, pollutants, insecticides, herbicides, etc.
We could actually shorten the worlds life span with such actions.
Not to mention that greenhouse gases would be on an exponential rise due to the increased population of livestock alone.
It would be a very disgusting world to live in.

Then, let's look at the cultural aspect of vegetarianism. Indigenous populations of all countries have eaten meat since the days of the first caveman. The first world countries are outnumbered greatly by second and third world countries. That small percentage would have a hard time telling the rest of the world that it's better to eat plants when those other countries have been eating meat since the dawn of time. If a man from Britain demanded from an African tribe to become vegetarians, he'd probably be killed for heresy.
We being carnivores is a requirement for nature to continue to function perfectly. Changing such a thing could have drastic consequences.

I'm glad we have a dedicated and well educated futurist/anthropologist/meteorologist/zoologist/dietician/waste management engineer here to set us all straight on exactly what would happen if we gradually moved away from meat consumption >.<  I know this is immature, but that whole block was so retarded I just can't bring myself to pick it apart, I can't do it anymore.

@Dorito:  I don't know what vegetarian bastard raped you that night with the carrot but man, please don't hate on the rest of us for it okay? ... Seriously though,  I don't know where all this anger comes from.  Why you need to be pissed off at people who do things differently than you, I have no idea.  Feel free to hate assholes who try to shove their lifestyles in your face, by all means, but those people are assholes because they're assholes, not because they like their veggies. :D

 

[kaidus]

Titan, while I agree with your basic sentiment, I feel I should question why a world in which it is wrong to eat meat would accept the mass slaughtering of species :/.

 

[Sic Semper Tyranosaurus]

You want to know what would happen if everyone suddenly became a Vegetarian Dynasty?

My only quarrel with this block of text is that this line made me imagine a family line of vegetarian tyrants ruling over the Earth for many generations.

 

[___]

More than likely what would happen in a magical world where everyone stopped eating meat one day is that we'd let the current generation of livestock live out their lives in relative comfort, and then there would be a massive die-off; most of them are incapable of reproduction anyway.  The remainder of them would not be able to survive in the wild very well due to over-domestication and in any case we would probably keep them around for dairy products and eggs and what have you, albeit in a more humane and conservative system than the current one.  I suppose they'd probably get the same treatment as animals in wildlife reserves or perhaps outdoor pets or something *shrug*

It's a silly thing to argue about though, since it's not ever going to happen in more than a very gradual fashion.  If vegetarian politics got strong enough to get the kind of power it needed to pass laws against meat consumption that would imply a very large portion of the population was vegetarian; not just enough of them that choose that lifestyle for themselves but enough of them that, even accounting for the live and let eat sorts like me who would not vote for such a law, they could get it passed in legislature.  This will most likely not happen ever, and if it does, it'll be a long time off in the future and all the "problems" Titan belched out onto the forum will have long since become irrelevant.

Oh yeah, back @Dorito again, regarding the same post I mocked a little earlier:  Seriously, dude, there are five pages of vegetarians justifying their stance from every angle in this thread.  I've spent enough time writing in here to compile a freaking book, and I daresay I am way ahead of the curve on both sides in terms of actual, factual information on this subject.  Don't just bounce into a thread, post something inflammatory on the fourth page and feel like you've made a good point on the matter.  (ugh god please ignore my moderator tag in regard to that statement)

Anyway I'm really getting tired of this thread, I've spent more than enough time in here that I don't feel like making any real arguments anymore as there's nothing left for me to say that I haven't already said.  I'm officially stepping out of any posts here until someone comes up with something intelligent and useful to say; if you think of something and you're just positive it's not ignorant, go through the rest of the thread and see if you can find it already addressed somewhere.  If you didn't, sorry to say, it's probably ignorant.  I'll drop in occasionally to moderate.

Thank you for your time. :D

 

[JesseG88]

You cannot, period, cannot survive on animal products alone.  You would be lacking a vast range of nutrients that are simply not contained in any animal product.  The first and most common form of malnourishment is probably scurvy.  This actually happened to my brother when he was a kid, he became convinced that anything growing out of the ground was yucky and refused to eat it for about 3 months.  Once we saw the doctor when he started looking and feeling funny my parents set that right.  Plant products however do contain every single vitamin, protein, fat, carbohydrate and mineral necessary to human survival except B12, which I covered in an earlier post and am not going to repeat again.

Actually, animal products do contain all the necessary nutrients.  The problem is that people tend to forget to include parts of the animal other than the muscle meats.  If you remember to also consume the organs (especially liver, which contains vitamin C), fat, and bone marrow, that a fully carnivorous diet will provide all necessary nutrition.  Virtually all primitive people who eat animal products consume the organ meats and the fat.  To deal with the problem of liver having all sorts of toxins, simply eat organic liver from pasture raised, free range animals.

In regard to natives and diets, most native people who are on a vegetable-only diet are limited to plant products grown in their local area, and there are few places in the world that can grow the full variety of plants necessary for a sustainable vegetarian diet.  If civilization collapsed and I were in that situation I'd start hunting, but thanks to the huge variety of products available to me that's not necessary  

Where are there any 100% vegetarian tribes?

The few natives who are on nearly completely carnivorous diets (Aleuts, for instance) have many special adaptations, such as symbiotic digestive organisms not present in most people.  They also have access to a greater variety of animals to eat, mostly sea foods, which you can't find or aren't allowed by law to eat in most places.  I actually watched a documentary on them a little while ago, if I could remember it I'd cite it.

I've read about that kind of thing, but from what I've read, the carnivorous natives do not have any "special adaptations"; their digestive systems are functionally and biologically identical to our own.  There is even a story of a couple of white men who, as a result of an expedition gone awry, ended up living with a tribe of carnivorous natives for eleven years.  The white men ate the same food as the natives but stayed in excellent health.  Eventually, they were able to get back home, and they carried out a scientific experiment in a hospital to see if an all meat diet would be possible down south in an urban environment.  They found that it worked amazingly well.  Here's the link to the story: http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm(Please ignore the Bible Life in the title.  Trust me, there's nothing religious in that particular story.)

The blip about hydrogenated vegetable oils vs. animal fats is absolutely true, partially hydrogenated oils are otherwise known as trans fats and we've recently discovered they're particularly bad for us (wikipedia or google for more info, please).  Fortunately I don't make a habit of using them personally.  I know there are still a lot of people who do, vegetarian or otherwise - it's a relatively new issue.  Unfortunately animal fats contain large amounts of cholesterol.  Arguments about how bad cholesterol is for you aside, the plain fact is that any dietary cholesterol is in excess of the body's needs, which is one of the big reasons why you're supposed to limit your intake of animal products to around 6 ounces of meat and eggs per day and a small amount of dairy.

The connection between dietary cholesterol and heart disease has been shown to be shaky at best, or downright fraud at worst.  There are lots of books about that subject, and they cite many scientific studies which show cholesterol isn't bad.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Where are there any 100% vegetarian tribes?

Bantu tribes from Africa such as the Kikuyu and Wakamba were made pretty well known thanks to a study by Dr. Price & Dr. Burkitt.  They were agricultures who ate a vegetarian diet.
They were an average of 6 inches shorter, and etc etc.

There have been hundreds of tribes, or simply groups of people in early societies around the world that are, or were rather, 100% vegetarian.  There have been countless that were only eating meat during celebrations, and ate vegetarianly during other times..

 

[___]

First off, it's refreshing to see someone posting something intelligent and well-considered in this topic so thank you

Actually, animal products do contain all the necessary nutrients.  The problem is that people tend to forget to include parts of the animal other than the muscle meats.  If you remember to also consume the organs (especially liver, which contains vitamin C), fat, and bone marrow, that a fully carnivorous diet will provide all necessary nutrition.  Virtually all primitive people who eat animal products consume the organ meats and the fat.  To deal with the problem of liver having all sorts of toxins, simply eat organic liver from pasture raised, free range animals.

I hadn't considered it from that angle as it's not something that your average person would do.  I am willing to say you may be correct, but I would expect that it would take not only a variety of organs but a variety of animals to satisfy all human dietary needs; not all animals, especially common livestock, have all the same needs as we do.  I would like to see more evidence in that regard.  Interesting point though.

Where are there any 100% vegetarian tribes?

See Sixty's post above for that one.  I can cite a few things if you want me to go to the effort of digging for info but I don't think it's necessary.  Also of note, many religious and spiritual groups are entirely vegetarian, especially in the priesthood, notably at least some Hindu and Buddhist sects as well as a handful of pagan/"New Age" groups.  This is not exactly related to your question but as they predate modern society I think it's applicable.

I've read about that kind of thing, but from what I've read, the carnivorous natives do not have any "special adaptations"; their digestive systems are functionally and biologically identical to our own.

They have symbiotic relationships with intestinal fauna and genetic adaptations that are conducive to those relationships similar to people who have lactose tolerance, which is not common outside people of European descent (and probably a few other cultures who have had relationships with cows for thousands of years).  It's not impossible for anyone else to gain them, I don't imagine, but as these relationships are usually started at an early age and cultured throughout life.

There is even a story of a couple of white men who, as a result of an expedition gone awry, ended up living with a tribe of carnivorous natives for eleven years.  The white men ate the same food as the natives but stayed in excellent health.  Eventually, they were able to get back home, and they carried out a scientific experiment in a hospital to see if an all meat diet would be possible down south in an urban environment.  They found that it worked amazingly well.  Here's the link to the story: http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm(Please ignore the Bible Life in the title.  Trust me, there's nothing religious in that particular story.)

Sorry to say I'm tired and don't feel like reading that story right now but I will try to remember to get back to it.  Until then I won't comment except to say it sounds interesting

The connection between dietary cholesterol and heart disease has been shown to be shaky at best, or downright fraud at worst.  There are lots of books about that subject, and they cite many scientific studies which show cholesterol isn't bad.

Here I wholly disagree, except on the point that cholesterol isn't bad.  Cholesterol is vitally important to the body; however the body like I have said before produces all it needs from fats.  The plain fact of the matter is that plaque in the blood vessels which results in reduced blood flow to and from the heart is composed of cholesterol; that this plaque does not and cannot build up without an excess of cholesterol in the diet; that without this buildup a majority of heart attacks can be avoided.  People who have low cholesterol diets, such as vegetarians, vegans and people who simply moderate their consumption of cholesterol have dramatically reduced rates of heart disease, this has been shown in hundreds if not thousands of clinical studies.

Any and all research into how and why exactly it builds up beyond that is irrelevant to the point and dodging the issue if it concludes simply that a high-cholesterol diet is safe or healthy.  There have been some studies that show you can balance a diet around high cholesterol consumption by reducing consumption of other foods that increase plaque buildup, and that there are different kinds of cholesterol that have different accretion rates, and so on.  This also, imo, is irrelevant to the discussion of whether one should reduce cholesterol intake if he has extremely high cholesterol rates, especially combined with other risk factors; I challenge you to find a licensed dietitian that will recommend a person with a family history of heart disease eat bacon bacon cheeseburgers every day to improve his health.

Also and finally, while I admit it's not entirely fair or a logical attack, I have found that many of the studies promoting the "eat a couple cheeseburgers, it's okay!" line of thinking are unsurprisingly sponsored by the beef, dairy and egg industries and are contrary to similar studies done by objective, disinterested sources such as the FDA and the American Heart Association.  This is sort of similar, imo, to all the studies sponsored by the tobacco industry that found over and over again that there was no link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer; they have a product to sell and a public image to maintain.  While this is perfectly understandable one has to occasionally question the source.