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Tis pity she's a whore

Prostitution.

Yay or nay?

Do you think prostitution should be allowed to happen or not? Do you think it is a valid career? Would you ever hire a prostitute? Would you ever be a prostitute?

Personally I have no problems with prostitution and think it could actually be viably pushed as a career. I think that if enough time, effort, and money was put into it then the problems associated with prostitution could be eliminated.

What I am talking about is setting up official, regulated brothels. They would have medical staff on hand and everyone (both prostitutes and clients) would have to be tested before getting it on, and reasonable safe-sex measures would be in place (condoms, etc). That way it takes away the need for prostitution to be forced underground, becoming unregulated, unwatched, and potentially life-threatening to the people involved on both sides.

Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to hear both sides of the debate.
 
Las Vegas and several cities in Nevada allow brothels. They are well-managed and are highly regulated, much moreso than illegal prostitution elsewhere. They're not allowed to be near schools or family-oriented facilities and they are not allowed to offer services or employment to anyone under 18. The girls are all given free medical care and their STD records are kept on file (and they must be clean to work). It's also well-taxed so the cities benefit from their being there.

I see absolutely no problem with them. Prostitution is going to happen whether anyone likes it or not. If it's legal and taxed, we're providing rights to women (and men) in this line of work, and another revenue for city funds. It's your choice what you do with your body, selling it or not. I personally would not, but it doesn't mean I look down on people who do what they have to do to survive.
 
I am absolutely opposed to it. It degrades women, violates the sanctity of sexual intimacy between a lawfully wedded husband and wife, and acts in direct opposition to the will of God and his eternal plan of both earthly and eternal happiness.
 
I see absolutely no problem with them. Prostitution is going to happen whether anyone likes it or not. If it's legal and taxed, we're providing rights to women (and men) in this line of work, and another revenue for city funds. It's your choice what you do with your body, selling it or not. I personally would not, but it doesn't mean I look down on people who do what they have to do to survive.

Exactly. Case closed. :thumb:

(Although I don't think it should be a career aspiration: people should be aiming to move up in life, methinks)

God can't be that narked about prostitution, why else would he allow so many Tarts with a Heart to get a place in his book?
 
well religion is one of the major factors of why its illegal. Though I dont agree.

jacob":2cdc73le said:
I am absolutely opposed to it. It degrades women, violates the sanctity of sexual intimacy between a lawfully wedded husband and wife, and acts in direct opposition to the will of God and his eternal plan of both earthly and eternal happiness.

A prostitute could be married and happy, and still do her job. People who find it ungodly can still think its ungodly. But why do you have to poke your nose in someone elses bussiness and beliefs. That statement right there was a sexist comment. Why do you assume that there are only women prositutes. Why cant a man be a prostitute too.

I for one, approve of this. It has a lot more pros than cons, like being able to tax and such. Also, it would be healthier. Since prostitution is illegal in most states, there is this underground network of prostitution that is unsafe and does kill, by STD or murder. By legalizing prostitution, less lives would be lost, and the people of the world would be healthier. Theer would be less STD cases. There would be a lot less hookers on the street and whatnot too, which I see every so often. The reason why its illegal is because of religion. The Unites States governmentsays that politics should be a seperate state from religion, but religion is a major factor, which is sad really. Gay marriage is banned mainly because its "unreligious" which is ridiculous. The same goes with prostititution, if religions wasn't so tied up in politics, I bet that prostitution would be legal.

I of course am trying not to be a prostitute, but its is my backup plan if all else fails. :)
 
The fact that someone was actually capable of responding to my post by questioning how prostitution degrades women has confirmed my suspicion that any future posts in this thread, after having read the first two, are pointless.
 
No no and no.

As a side note I think it was in Germany (note sure where) that if you can't get any job but are offered a prostitution job you can't get unemployment because you refused a job. That's seriously messed up lol.
 

Vadon

Member

I'll play a bit of devil's advocate here, 'cause I think it might help the debate. (I do find it slightly ironic that to play devil's advocate I need to speak against prostitution, but I digress.) First, if I'm not mistaken, there aren't legal brothels in Vegas. I think there's a law in Nevada saying that any city with a population over X can't have brothels, this was targeted against Vegas. But there are some legal brothels in Nevada and this doesn't really weigh into arguments for or against prostitution.

As far as reasons to be opposed to prostitution without bringing God in.

The degradation argument. This is more of a values question, but one that I don't think you need to have a faith in a higher power to have. Ultimately you're putting a price on sex which to many is an act that ought to be reserved for couples in an intimate relationship. By cheapening sex through putting a price tag on it, it could be perceived as devaluing the importance of exclusivity in a relationship. Some might argue that what other people do in their private lives should not effect their relationship, but there is an argument to be made about society itself. A society that condones casual sex reflects upon all members of it, even those who disagree.

There are other factors that come into play. For example, there are concerns of sex-trafficking. If you legalize prostitution and advocate brothels, there is still a great risk that organizations in the Balkans, the Chinese Mafia, and the Russian Mafia might ship over women to be sex-slaves to the country that legalizes it. With a bit of clever forgery of documents, they could pull this off in spite of the heavy regulation. This would just further build an evil that exists that so rarely is discussed. These aren't women who are willing, but forced. And that is degrading.

It's true that men can be prostitutes too, they're called gigolos. But the other larger principle behind this 'degradation' argument is that it devalues the person. By allowing folks to induldge in casual, paid for sex it objectifies people as naught more than objects of pleasure rather than a human being. This mindset sticks and can often result in less healthy relationships with other people outside of the confines of the brothel. There is scientific evidence that backs this principle.

Disease and pregnancy argument. You can test all the clients as well as all the prostitutes weekly, but some will slip through the cracks as far as disease is concerned. Granted, those who play with fire are oft to get burned; but this is something that can't really be stopped. But why should this matter? If a person is willing to knowingly risk an STD/STI, why should we stop them?

Because they have already shown a stupidity and callousness toward the risk. If a client transmits a disease to a worker, that person's occupation is finished and they have just become a risk to everyone they have had sex with up until the discovery and unless treatable everyone in the future. If a client contracts a disease, the odds are that because they were willing to risk contracting the disease, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they transmit it knowingly or unknowingly to others not involved with the prostitution in the first place. It poses a grave danger to society and isn't an issue that should be glossed over.

And whether you're fine with abortion or find it reprehensible and seek to see it made illegal, there will be a lot of pregnancies. Granted there will be contraception used in a legalized brothel, but a sad fact is that the only guarantee against pregnancy is abstinence. (With the possible exception of Jesus, if you believe in him) Abortions have a lot of consequences that are long-lasting beyond the procedure. Sure the woman who was doing the job / was the client should understand that risk, but while many of us might advocate the legalization of abortion, surely we can agree that there ought to be less of it.

How prostitution works argument No this isn't a technical 'when a man pays for a woman' speech, it's the mechanics and institution of prostitution. I refer specifically to Pimps. Put simply, they would need to go. They do objectify women as their property. The women are expected to pay up. What's worse, Pimps solicit, manipulate, and coerce underage women into prostitution. They are essentially kidnapped, operating on a street corner in a redlight district. If they try to escape, they would suffer the consequences.

Pimps are the biggest problem with prostitution. If prostitution were legalized, each man/woman would have to work as an independent contractor. There would need to be a union that ensures their members receive regular check ups so that they're clean. And having a 'brothel' in the sense that there is a place folks can go to seek a prostitute is fine. But ultimately the 'boss' would need to be the sex-workers themselves and not some boss who choses their clients and takes a cut.

**************************************

All of that said, I'm not opposed to the legalization of prostitution. It's an issue that I don't much care about. But I do think it's an issue people should be educated on.
 
There are other factors that come into play. For example, there are concerns of sex-trafficking. If you legalize prostitution and advocate brothels, there is still a great risk that organizations in the Balkans, the Chinese Mafia, and the Russian Mafia might ship over women to be sex-slaves to the country that legalizes it. With a bit of clever forgery of documents, they could pull this off in spite of the heavy regulation. This would just further build an evil that exists that so rarely is discussed. These aren't women who are willing, but forced. And that is degrading.

But surely having everything out in the open reduces the chances of this happening far more than it does currently?

Furthermore, it generates tax revenues which can be used to tackle these types of crimes.

By allowing folks to induldge in casual, paid for sex it objectifies people as naught more than objects of pleasure rather than a human being. This mindset sticks and can often result in less healthy relationships with other people outside of the confines of the brothel.

There is scientific evidence that backs this principle.

Pft! Who needs Science? None of us in The Symposium, that's for sure!

And surely many of these men are doing this anyway? When the WI - the closest thing there is to the Moral Majority in the United Kingdom - were looking at ways to legalize prostitution, they were able to come up with a range of ideas which countered this. When Stephen Fry was in America, they showed a very long clip from his visiting a Nevada brothel-place, and the... workers... went in depth with many of the things that they went through to re-enforce on the customer the fact that they were not objects, but women who were provided a service of anonymous paid-sex.
 
There's no place for Christian dogmatic morals in our government. They rule too much of it as is. Gay marriage, isn't happening because of dogmatists. Abortion is being fought by dogmatists. We live in a democratic society where people have a right to their mind, body, and soul(if they so believe in one or not). If you want to whore yourself you should have every fucking right. Who is the government to tell you you can't do something with your body? The thing it comes down to is baseless morals and greed.

jacob":vueza91g said:
The fact that someone was actually capable of responding to my post by questioning how prostitution degrades women has confirmed my suspicion that any future posts in this thread, after having read the first two, are pointless.

Get off your high horse and get real dude. I respect your beliefs but all you have is the word of God to back you up. We live in a democracy. Freedom of Religion and Beliefs? I'm sure you've heard of it. You just exercised it in your two posts. I'm exercising mine in telling you that just your God tells you about an eternal path doesn't mean that Mrs. Prostitute is a scum sucking anti-christ out to degrade herself in the name of Satan. She's dirt poor, has no other options, and is probably trying to pay off some drug debt, or feed her dying kids. So before you pull these Christian moral cards, use your brain and be human. Every intelligent human on this planet should have the right to their body. End of story. No theological process to it. I'm not intending to offend you, but if I did, I'm not apologizing.
 

Vadon

Member

Mundane":21qfsnpy said:
I'm not intending to offend you, but if I did, I'm not apologizing.

Coulda fooled me. I mean, I'm an atheist and even I was offended by your complete disregard for the poster's faith. That's not to say I don't think you were entitled to saying it, what with free speech n'all, but dayumn. (Saying you always respected a person whilst urinating on their grave tends to prove your words contrary to the truth.) :wink:

Again, I don't really care either way on if prostitution is legalized, but I would like to counter-point your arguments because it's not the "end of story."

Are you opposed to DUI/DWI laws? I mean, it's your body, you should be able to drink yourself off your ass any time you feel like, right? And it's your car! Who's to say you can't drive it?

My point is that we restrict certain actions to protect others. Like I said earlier in this thread, even with constant medical examinations and protection being used, diseases and infections will spread. I can agree with you that if you're stupid enough to risk the health problems, that's your own fault. But the problem is that these people don't just "keep it to themselves," as it were. This is evidenced by their risk taking behavior in the first place. What I'm getting at is yes, it your body and you should have a right to it. But there is a great risk you pose not only to yourself, but others when you engage in these casual sexual encounters.

Is it guaranteed to happen? Of course not, just as there's no guarantee that when you're drunk you're going to kill someone on the streets. But we criminalize behavior that results in harm to others.

And I'd like to take your hypothetical woman here for a moment. This one that you wrote about:

just your God tells you about an eternal path doesn't mean that Mrs. Prostitute is a scum sucking anti-christ out to degrade herself in the name of Satan. She's dirt poor, has no other options, and is probably trying to pay off some drug debt, or feed her dying kids.

Tell me, what should our government's priority be? Making it possible for this woman to whore herself out, or should it take action to try to help the woman while still maintaining her dignity? Now I know that y'all can argue that to many, sex is nothing to tie dignity to. There are quite a few with that perspective and props to you. But what about those folks who do put value in their chastity/exclusivity? Should the government's message to those folks be, "Well, you're right, you have no other options. Why not go whore yourself out for some money?"

What I'm getting at in this case is that a person should never have to take on prostitution as a last resort. If prostitution were to be legalized, it would need to be done as an uncoerced choice of the potential sex-worker. They should 'want' to be a sex-worker, not need to be. And if they're working as a prostitute in necessity, can you tell me that's not somewhat degrading? That a person is forced into prostitution because they lack skills in every other arena? Their only utility in the world is to be a sex-object? That's not religiously based, man, that's humanity.

Anyway, I wanted to address those points you brought up.

@Incognitus:

Surprisingly, having everything out in the open doesn't necessarily reduce the chances. There are tens of thousands of slaves in the United States already. All people need to do is forge documentation for these different workers. It's not that hard to forge, and while we might be able to crack down on plenty of the human-trafficking, I would bet that trafficking as a whole would increase to the United States, not decrease.

But I agree that there are ways to counter-act the objectification of sex-workers. The episode "Heart of Gold" from Firefly exemplifies this so well, though. A non-union brothel was run by women with dignity, but a patron, in spite of the lectures saw the folks as nothing but whores and tools for pleasure. It resulted in an interesting story wherein this patron tried to kill a woman he slept with who gave birth to his baby but was stopped by the heroic main cast, but this illustrates a larger point. There are all sorts of folks out there, and even with lectures about how people are human, some won't listen. I believe if prostitution were legalized, people are naturally able to deny prospective clients, but it's still a question of what influence it would have on society. Would it fuel the objectification of sex-workers in spite of the education?

It's a genuine question because I authentically don't know. It could go either way.
 
Surprisingly, having everything out in the open doesn't necessarily reduce the chances. There are tens of thousands of slaves in the United States already. All people need to do is forge documentation for these different workers. It's not that hard to forge, and while we might be able to crack down on plenty of the human-trafficking, I would bet that trafficking as a whole would increase to the United States, not decrease.

I'm already aware of the extensive slave trade in the West, as are a lot of other people I'm sure, but you can hardly claim that it is "out in the open" :P

If we were to compare this to other illegal trades that have been legalized in certain parts of the world, most notably drugs in certain area (which have never lasted... for one reason or another) then illegal drug smuggling decreased dramatically along with various mortality stuff... and I've forgotten what I'm trying to say. :|

(^ I'll edit later with the statistic for the above, I can't find them at the moment :( )




Tell me, what should our government's priority be? Making it possible for this woman to whore herself out, or should it take action to try to help the woman while still maintaining her dignity? Now I know that y'all can argue that to many, sex is nothing to tie dignity to. There are quite a few with that perspective and props to you. But what about those folks who do put value in their chastity/exclusivity? Should the government's message to those folks be, "Well, you're right, you have no other options. Why not go whore yourself out for some money?"

Surprisingly, I read several studies back in school that seem to suggest that, contrary to certain right-wing gospel, many women would actually prefer to sell their bodies than accept a handout purely because it makes them feel less like scroungers.
 

Vadon

Member

On the first bit, that's a very good point, but I'm not entirely convinced. Comparing the legalization of drugs and the legalization of prostitution is a bit like comparing apples with pears. Very similar, but not quite. The key difference is that former drug suppliers can just work through the government to get their product in the country. It would be legal for them to ship the drugs in as long as the government checked it. With people, on the other hand, it's not quite as easy. The people who had been shipping people illegally would continue to do so because the people were already going against their will. The only difference for them would be that there might be a larger demand now that the client base has increased in countries that legalize prostitution. This is a more difficult thing to find the answer to, and after I post this I'm definitely going to try to find any studies that show the correlation between trafficking and legalized prostitution and see if there's a causation hidden somewhere in there.

On your second answer, I'd actually like to see those studies. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few or even some women who believed that. But my question is if a grand majority did. I'd also like to see how the question was framed to see if it influenced the answer. I think there's a difference between, "Assuming you had no income, would you rather the government: A. put you on welfare until you had income, or B. legalized prostitution so that you have a new form of income?" and "Would you rather use your body as an asset to make money, or do you want to be a parasite to the system?"

The other bit that comes from my own personal view, is the question of priorities. While I'm not opposed to the legalization of prostitution, I believe our government's priorities ought to be centered around providing more opportunities to those who would be prone prostitution out of economic necessity rather than desire. If the government is working double-time in a fight against destitution, then sure legalize prostitution. But there better not be a single sex-worker who is doing so because they feel they have no other choice.
 
I don't think many prostitutes actually "want" to be prostitutes. No matter how hard you try it'll always end up being a last resort thing. We might not force it (like with unemployment) but in the end if that's the only job a lady or guy can get they might accept it despite not wanting to. The only way it wouldn't be a last resort job is if there were plenty of jobs all around and plenty alternatives for everyone which is just not true, especially in this economy.
 

Vadon

Member

││█║▌│║▌║ ▌│║▌║ ▌││":2fxjxmhp said:
Actually some people are prostitutes because they actually want it, hard to believe I know, but it is true ;o. Remember, not all prostitutes are street walkers and back alley people.

Oh bad pun in there lol.

QFT on both that some do want to be prostitutes and that there was a mighty 'awful' pun in there. :)

It's true that there are many who don't want to be prostitutes but are forced or coerced into it via pimps and sex-traffickers. But it's also true that there are quite a few prostitutes that do the job because they, quite frankly, enjoy the work.
 
I see prostitution as a kind of self destruction/self hatred. Similar to using drugs and alcohol. I haven't spoke heart-to-heart to any prostitute, but if I did, I'm pretty sure she'll admit she had dreams to be a hairdresser or whatever.
I mean.. prostitutes are normal human beings. like you and me. What would you feel if you had to work as a prostitute? Satisfaction and joy or something else?
 

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