Money

[iceplosion]

There's nothing wrong with liking money but when you value it more than human life then you have a problem.

 

[Dissonance]

There's nothing wrong with liking money but when you value it more than human life then you have a problem.

Money allows you to live, human life, other than your own, doesn't.

It's that simple.

If I was told that I would be given enough money to live an extremely comfortable life, and in return, somebody that I don't know and would never have the chance of meeting would be murdered, I'd do it.  Hell ramp the number up 10, 100, 1000, 10,000... I'd still do it.

If you WOULDN'T, then you've got the problem.

 

[eharper256]

Well, I'm anti-captialist by definition. Not so much 'I hate money' like sicness suggests, but rather 'I hate what it does'. Money in itself is not evil, but the creation of a society that abuses it in a neverending cycle of credit, debit, debt and shopping is.

To spend your live toiling away for the promise of funds and a theoretical comfotable existance drives all of society; and what a hollow goal it is. It drives man to backstab his fellow for naught but a coin on his palm. Dissonance's example makes it very clear how terrible cash can make us: You'd let 10,000 people die just for a comfy existance? Well...no offence dude, but I wouldn't put you in charge of a country; you'd end being one of those extravagant dictators who lets his people suffer while he wallows in luxury.

Frankly, I don't care at all for the stuff. I look at my bank statement once a month, and toss it aside. I am not a competitive person, and the idea of working a 9 to 5 job just for a paypacket disgusts me. I require something else from my day. Be it the ability to create something, or a feeling that I might have achieved something useful, given someone happiness, however fleeting. If I spend my life as a pauper, so be it, for those with money are not happy: they just have more ways to waste their time.

Money allows you to live, human life, other than your own, doesn't.

No sir, Money is one possible device that allows you to live. Work, get paid, shop, spend, party, spend, rinse, repeat. This is the basic trap all people so easily fall into. Then you get into debt. Debt is financial guilt. It traps you in the system whilst the bank managers laugh all the way to the, well, bank.

To say you do not need human life besides your own. That...well...I can't understand. Humans are naturally social creatures. Without trade, language and co-operation, we would've never have got where we are today. Many other species are stronger, faster, keener, and better at survival. A human without his tools is weak, but a human without his heart and soul and emotion is much weaker still. Without love, courage, hope, determination, and all of those other foolish emotions...we could not live. Without others, these emotions have no meaning. Friends are like mirrors into ones own soul; and to say you want none suggests you cannot stand to examine your own soul. Similarily, to go back to money, to be rich has no meaning if there are no poor.

To refuse to take money; to refuse to be bound by its whims. That is where a better society might lie; but such is only attainable when everyone lets go. And lets face it, that isn't gonna happen soon. This is evident in the dramatic failure of communism. Until then, we bear the evils that money, and capitalism, have created. But to be taken in by them is a fatal mistake; one you can often only make once, for afterwards it is terribly hard to escape.

 

[Dissonance]

Dissonance's example makes it very clear how terrible cash can make us: You'd let 10,000 people die just for a comfy existance? Well...no offence dude, but I wouldn't put you in charge of a country; you'd end being one of those extravagant dictators who lets his people suffer while he wallows in luxury.

Boy, you sure do enjoy selective reading, don't you?

I specifically said I'd let people die that I'd never, ever know, or have the chance of meeting.  If I were the leader of a country, I would have to face my people, in one form or another, every day, and so I most likely wouldn't do that.  But if me, where I am right now, was given the option to have a whole ton of money in return for a branch of humanity I would never, ever encounter in any way, I'd do it it a heartbeat and never look back.

I hope you see the difference!

Frankly, I don't care at all for the stuff. I look at my bank statement once a month, and toss it aside. I am not a competitive person, and the idea of working a 9 to 5 job just for a paypacket disgusts me. I require something else from my day. Be it the ability to create something, or a feeling that I might have achieved something useful, given someone happiness, however fleeting. If I spend my life as a pauper, so be it, for those with money are not happy: they just have more ways to waste their time.

It sounds like you are one of three things.  Rich, young, or high.

To say you do not need human life besides your own. That...well...I can't understand. Humans are naturally social creatures. Without trade, language and co-operation, we would've never have got where we are today. Many other species are stronger, faster, keener, and better at survival. A human without his tools is weak, but a human without his heart and soul and emotion is much weaker still. Without love, courage, hope, determination, and all of those other foolish emotions...we could not live. Without others, these emotions have no meaning. Friends are like mirrors into ones own soul; and to say you want none suggests you cannot stand to examine your own soul. Similarily, to go back to money, to be rich has no meaning if there are no poor.

I agree with your last bit.  I only need people for these reasons - two of them to have created me, a small selection of them to be my friends, and a large group of them I don't know and don't care to know to bend over and allow me to stand on their backs.

To that extent, I guess you're right - I do need people.

 

[Legendary]

eharper256- When it comes to land animals, NO ONE has better endurance than us. There are entire forms of HUNTING based off of this fact, most of these hunts lasting two days. Us being weak without tools is a myth caused by somebody or other for foolish reasons, but I'm not sure who in this case.

Trade- *falls over laughing* Trade is something called economics. At the heart of economics is that everything has a value. In short, this leads to money. Further, money helps us GET cooperation, by ensuring that people with money can take care of themselves. I don't normally mention Star Trek, but one character notes that humans are perfectly pleasant creatures when their needs are taken care of, but once they're tired, hungry, and filthy, they turn really evil.

And of course, if friends are so great, why are their so many homeless people? Surely SOME of them have friends and family who aren't destitute. If they're so friendly, why won't they help?

 

[eharper256]

Boy, you sure do enjoy selective reading, don't you?

I specifically said I'd let people die that I'd never, ever know, or have the chance of meeting.  If I were the leader of a country, I would have to face my people, in one form or another, every day, and so I most likely wouldn't do that.  But if me, where I am right now, was given the option to have a whole ton of money in return for a branch of humanity I would never, ever encounter in any way, I'd do it it a heartbeat and never look back.

I hope you see the difference!

No, I see where you're coming from, but it wasn't selective reading: to me, there shouldn't be any difference whether or not you're never going to meet them. A leader never meets a good majority of his subjects, (in fact, its because most subjects couldn't be bothered to meet them) hence that example. That's like saying you're not responsible for dropping an hydrogen bomb, despite the fact you pressed the button, because you never knew the people you just nuked and you didn't touch them directly. An unusual form of logic, I must say.

To kill is perhaps justifiable; thats merely a matter of perspective, and if you'd let x amount of people die for the sake of money, then fine, but whatever your reason, you're obliged to be responsible for your actions. I know I couldn't live with the idea that 10,000 burned for my luxury, irregardless of whom they were.

It sounds like you are one of three things.  Rich, young, or high.

Nope, none of these things. I've never been rich. I was, until quite recently working a job that paid me a paltry 6 pounds an hour (thats, what 11 dollars to you americans?). My parents were fairly average white collar, I went to a public school, and got a student loan and small bursary to study at university.

I'm certainly not high. In fact, I've never touched a so called 'recreational substance', even at university, I was a total square in that regard.

Young; not so much anymore. I guess I'm young in the context of general lifespan, being in my mid twenties. But I'm certainly not carefree, and I certainly lost my precious innocence long ago.

Besides, how does any of these affect things? What Money is does is still vile, and I can maintain that attitude even whilst living a society relying upon it. Perhaps I am unique, perhaps I am too much of an idealist for my age, but irregardless, I find it horrible to work for merely a paypacket. Hence my current goal to get into teaching. If I can help people a little during my day, it won't feel so bad. If I can teach something I love, all the better. If I can impart my sensibilities, even better still. The fact that teachers are fairly underpaid never entered my mind. Doesn't bother me. As long as I can be content, like I said, I'd gladly be a pauper my entire life.

I agree with your last bit.  I only need people for these reasons - two of them to have created me, a small selection of them to be my friends, and a large group of them I don't know and don't care to know to bend over and allow me to stand on their backs.

To that extent, I guess you're right - I do need people.

Whilst you clamber up the backs of others, trying to get your ideal, don't mind me, I'll be standing away from this strange pyramid of people, making sarcastic injokes about their futility, occassionally wondering whether I can play Jenga with the pyramid and see what happens. The other crazy idealists, visionaries, and madmen standing outside the pyramid of people will sadly shake their heads and say they've already tried.

But fair enough, you've at least conceded you need some people. The way you spoke before suggested you didn't want any friends at all.

eharper256- When it comes to land animals, NO ONE has better endurance than us. There are entire forms of HUNTING based off of this fact, most of these hunts lasting two days. Us being weak without tools is a myth caused by somebody or other for foolish reasons, but I'm not sure who in this case.

Its not neccessarily true that we have unparrelelled endurance. Many bird species fly for months to reach warmer climes. Rather, human beings are stubborn as hell. We won't give in if we convince ourselves sufficiently; not to mention that love, hope and such can drive us far beyond even those normals. But yeah, you did say Land species, I suppose. But its really determination, willpower, if you will, rather than true physical endurance. I suppose the two things, however different, have the same application, mind.

Trade- *falls over laughing* Trade is something called economics. At the heart of economics is that everything has a value. In short, this leads to money. Further, money helps us GET cooperation, by ensuring that people with money can take care of themselves. I don't normally mention Star Trek, but one character notes that humans are perfectly pleasant creatures when their needs are taken care of, but once they're tired, hungry, and filthy, they turn really evil.

Actually, in trade, I was referring mainly to the exchange of ideas. The very idea of economics didn't really exist until Adam Smith codified it. Before then, there was merely trade, the exchange of thoughts, ideas, news, goods etc. Currency came about because it was easier to carry a pouch of gold coins than it was to lift a cow to the merchant every time you needed a new set of clothes. Money does indeed help in getting co-operation, but it is not the only means of getting what we desire. People seem to forget, in this modern age, that you can still grow your own veggies rather than buy them from the supermarket. Or buy yourself a photovoltaic cell and suddenly you don't need to pay your electric bill.

Its funny you mention Star Trek at the same time as money; as far as I'm aware, the Federation has actually moved beyond capitalism, as human beings are instead inspired by exploration and co-operation between species. But that quote is indeed relevant.

And of course, if friends are so great, why are their so many homeless people? Surely SOME of them have friends and family who aren't destitute. If they're so friendly, why won't they help?

You've already answered yourself with the Star Trek quote. People become friendly when their needs are met, certainly, but they also tend to forget about the concerns of others. To re-relate to that pyramid of people I spoke of earlier; the higher you climb, the less you can see.

To put it another way, a man builds his castle so that he doesn't HAVE to be concerned about the outside world. He's got his walls, and he ain't letting anyone else in. Why should he? They'll only betray his trust and eat his food. That's just natural paranoia. You pass by the homeless, not wanting to give them anything, because you fear that it'll become habitual, and in the process, you'll become like them.

Phew...that was alot of typing...

 

[Dissonance]

That's like saying you're not responsible for dropping an hydrogen bomb, despite the fact you pressed the button, because you never knew the people you just nuked and you didn't touch them directly. An unusual form of logic, I must say.

Again, selective reading.  I never once said I wouldn't be responsible for it.

Whilst you clamber up the backs of others, trying to get your ideal, don't mind me, I'll be standing away from this strange pyramid of people, making sarcastic injokes about their futility, occassionally wondering whether I can play Jenga with the pyramid and see what happens. The other crazy idealists, visionaries, and madmen standing outside the pyramid of people will sadly shake their heads and say they've already tried.

No, you won't.

As long as you have money and use it, even if you hate it, you'll be there like everybody else.

If you truly wanted to get away from it, you'd need to find an extremely secluded spot, grow your own food, build your own shelter, and live there for the rest of your life, only meeting with the few like-minded people that exist in the world.

You're a cog in the machine whether you like it or not.

 

[Legendary]

Its not neccessarily true that we have unparrelelled endurance. Many bird species fly for months to reach warmer climes. Rather, human beings are stubborn as hell. We won't give in if we convince ourselves sufficiently; not to mention that love, hope and such can drive us far beyond even those normals. But yeah, you did say Land species, I suppose. But its really determination, willpower, if you will, rather than true physical endurance. I suppose the two things, however different, have the same application, mind.

On birds, yeah, I did note land animals. I should have said landbound, but eh. And I don't think you quite get it. Antelopes will collapse from exhaustion after two days of being chased nonstop, the maximum their bodies can handle. Trust me, they're very determined not to get eaten. We can outlast them, through pure physical endurance. Willpower only goes so far, eventually muscles will say, "No, too tired," and give out. I also neglected to mention the fact that we're one of the few species that can climb trees and mountains AND go underwater, or even note that there are very few mammals who have color vision that rivals our own.

Case in point of our superiority? Look at the Neanderthals, who don't have our kind of shoulder joints, allowing them to throw things at DEADLY speeds. The Ice Age ended, we trekked north, and ate them out of house and home.

But this is off topic by this point, methinks, so forgive me if I drop this line of thinking and don't respond to any further points on this issue...

Actually, in trade, I was referring mainly to the exchange of ideas. The very idea of economics didn't really exist until Adam Smith codified it. Before then, there was merely trade, the exchange of thoughts, ideas, news, goods etc. Currency came about because it was easier to carry a pouch of gold coins than it was to lift a cow to the merchant every time you needed a new set of clothes. Money does indeed help in getting co-operation, but it is not the only means of getting what we desire. People seem to forget, in this modern age, that you can still grow your own veggies rather than buy them from the supermarket. Or buy yourself a photovoltaic cell and suddenly you don't need to pay your electric bill.

Its funny you mention Star Trek at the same time as money; as far as I'm aware, the Federation has actually moved beyond capitalism, as human beings are instead inspired by exploration and co-operation between species. But that quote is indeed relevant.

First off, the exchange of ideas only happens in a world where there is a stable economic basis to ensure that basic needs are taken care of. Also, could you give me some of these other ways to get what we desire? Growing your own vegetables doesn't work in a city, where people live in small apartments. You could make a little, but nowhere near enough to live on. Photovoltaic cells also have these obvious problems of space.

And Star Trek is decidedly unrealistic as far as how humanity will develop. We are greedy, superstitious, deceitful, hateful bastards, and short of something that makes us lose our humanity, we're likely to stay that way. It's a good survival mechanism.

You've already answered yourself with the Star Trek quote. People become friendly when their needs are met, certainly, but they also tend to forget about the concerns of others. To re-relate to that pyramid of people I spoke of earlier; the higher you climb, the less you can see.

To put it another way, a man builds his castle so that he doesn't HAVE to be concerned about the outside world. He's got his walls, and he ain't letting anyone else in. Why should he? They'll only betray his trust and eat his food. That's just natural paranoia. You pass by the homeless, not wanting to give them anything, because you fear that it'll become habitual, and in the process, you'll become like them.

Phew...that was alot of typing...

But WHY are friends so great? If they're so blind, what benefit do you get?

 

[Bestone]

Money allows you to live, human life, other than your own, doesn't.

It's that simple.

No, and its sad that you really believe that, I feel bad for you, honestly. Money does not allow you to live, without money you wont necesarially starve or die. There are lots of communities out there that dont have or use money (amish for example) and that doesnt mean the people starve or freeze. Just because you have no money, doesnt mean your quality of life is going to suck.

If I was told that I would be given enough money to live an extremely comfortable life, and in return, somebody that I don't know and would never have the chance of meeting would be murdered, I'd do it.  Hell ramp the number up 10, 100, 1000, 10,000... I'd still do it.

If you WOULDN'T, then you've got the problem.

This is a rather disgusting statement, you would kill 10,000 people just so you could live comfterably? what, you cant work your way up?

Its ideals like yours that feed whats wrong with this world, people are stepping on people, our societies are based on stepping over whoever you can to get yours. The current system of things feeds weak minded people like you into believing that its ok to step on your fellow man to get yourself higher on the comfortability notch.

Fact is you dont need material possessions and large homes filled with shiny stuff to be happy, you've just been taught to think that.

You guys really need to get it out of your heads that no money = starving, there are other ways to get by, even comfortably, its just where you draw the line morally. You buy into the idea that its easier to step all over people to get your money, and sure, it may be easier....but its just not right


Edit: infact, if you've ever complained about someone making too much money, ever complained about a corrupt politician, ever complained about not getting a raise from a stiff boss, Ever complained for any utility company raising rates on you, that would make you a HIPOCRATE. Why? because they are just doint exactly what you would do

So next time your feeling screwed over by someone else in the money department, your just gonna have to take it like a good little boy, cause thats what its all about, right?

 

[eharper256]

Again, selective reading.  I never once said I wouldn't be responsible for it.

And, as I said, that's fine. If you can justify that kind of death from your perspective, and if you can handle that that kind of implication. I couldn't; the crushing guilt would eventually take my sanity, no doubt, if I knew I were responsible directly for killing X amount of people. Many soldiers feel this crushing depression for the rest of their lives so long as they still have conscience.

No, you won't.

As long as you have money and use it, even if you hate it, you'll be there like everybody else.

If you truly wanted to get away from it, you'd need to find an extremely secluded spot, grow your own food, build your own shelter, and live there for the rest of your life, only meeting with the few like-minded people that exist in the world.

You're a cog in the machine whether you like it or not.

Troublesome, true, but you are indeed correct. Perhaps I will never escape the machine fully, as you say, but that wasn't the point of the metaphor. I wasn't saying I was fully removed from society, but rather, I'll just remove myself from the ethos, motivation and ethics of that social context. I won't be 'in the pyramid' and I won't try clamboring for the top. That, at the end of the day, is all.

We can outlast them, through pure physical endurance. Willpower only goes so far, eventually muscles will say, "No, too tired," and give out.

Muscles can say that; but the mind has a way of saying 'I don't give a s*** if you're too tired, your damn life depends on it, so get the hell up!'. And you get up. All I'm saying, is that all humans, however physically retarded, still have that in common when their life is on the line. But yeah, this is off topic, so lets end that banter.

First off, the exchange of ideas only happens in a world where there is a stable economic basis to ensure that basic needs are taken care of.

So, we can't sit and chat about our day and crazy ideas in the pub unless we've gone shopping first? The co-ordination of thoughts was essential before the economy. I'll use your example of these cro-magnon hunting parties. They probably didn't have a stable economic base. It would be mutual co-operation for survival, not 'I'll give you three teeth for that lovely mammoth hide'. If there was no exchange of ideas, no-one would have invented spears to throw with our wonderful arm muscles. If they didn't communicate hunting tactics as a group, more cunning animals could have outsmarted them.

Also, could you give me some of these other ways to get what we desire? Growing your own vegetables doesn't work in a city, where people live in small apartments. You could make a little, but nowhere near enough to live on. Photovoltaic cells also have these obvious problems of space.

Not enough space in your flat? Rent an allotment, then. Most cities have some crappy ground that no-one wants to develop. You can usually rent it off of them, and grow your veggies there. True, you'd have to pretty dedicated to the ideal to do that, since its a daily chore, but it isn't impossible.

Fair enough with Photovoltaics; they're not efficient enough for a flat, unless you happen to be south facing.

As for other solutions; they're not as glorified, but you can just try cutting out the middle man: go to farm stores or wholesalers and buy directly from the suppliers. As dissonance has already pointed out, it is probably impossible to fully ''break free'', but my point was you should never believe the options offered to you are the only ones you have.

To put it another way; in a question paper with tickboxes for A, B and C, there is invariably an answer D as well. To feel you have to tick a box because that's what everyone else does is misguided. But convincing everyone to act in this way is the real power of the modern society.

And Star Trek is decidedly unrealistic as far as how humanity will develop. We are greedy, superstitious, deceitful, hateful bastards, and short of something that makes us lose our humanity, we're likely to stay that way. It's a good survival mechanism.

Very true; but we do recognise a good deal when we see one. I think that's what the star trek universe is about. "Oh shi- clever and impressive aliens appeared! If we make sure to keep on our best behavior, then maybe they'll teach us funky technology and stuff and make our life easier!"

This is basically the federation that exists in the Enterprise saga, at least. We've kinda become lapdogs for the vulcans, and though theres some (nay, alot) of bitter enmity about it, everyone realises its probably a good idea, cause, w00t we can travel at warp 4 now, yay! If that attitude exists for long enough in a culture, it might be possible for 'the bird to change his feathers' so to speak. Though I will agree that star trek's timeframe is terribly optimistic; we're havin' some adaptability problems in 22nd century, but things are all ironed out and hunky dory by the 23rd/24th.

But WHY are friends so great? If they're so blind, what benefit do you get?

As I said originally, 'friends are like mirrors into your own soul', friends are beneficial at the very least because they are educational. Even the most selfish twerp can learn something about themselves through their interactions. It feels good to pour your daily issues into another, and they can give you insight into problems that you may have not thought of, simply because they are approaching the matter from a different vantage point.

No, and its sad that you really believe that, I feel bad for you, honestly. Money does not allow you to live, without money you wont necesarially starve or die. There are lots of communities out there that dont have or use money (amish for example) and that doesnt mean the people starve or freeze. Just because you have no money, doesnt mean your quality of life is going to suck.

Yes, yes, its good to see somebody understands that like me. Penniless != Comfortless.

This is a rather disgusting statement, you would kill 10,000 people just so you could live comfterably? what, you cant work your way up?

Its ideals like yours that feed whats wrong with this world, people are stepping on people, our societies are based on stepping over whoever you can to get yours. The current system of things feeds weak minded people like you into believing that its ok to step on your fellow man to get yourself higher on the comfortability notch.

Fact is you dont need material possessions and large homes filled with shiny stuff to be happy, you've just been taught to think that.

You guys really need to get it out of your heads that no money = starving, there are other ways to get by, even comfortably, its just where you draw the line morally. You buy into the idea that its easier to step all over people to get your money, and sure, it may be easier....but its just not right

Excellent, excellent, indeed. As I mentioned, it is not the money that is neccessarily evil, but the society at work that takes advantage of it; the fact that it indoctrinates the greatness of money. And this is why I hate it and attempt to live with it at arms length.

 

[Trek22]

Money is important, lets see the Amish regularly tour the world and not just stay in one location and tend to their fields.  Sure if thats your goal in life, have at it.  You don't need to step on other people in the pursuit of money to achieve getting it.  I've no need to ruin someone elses life to better my own unless that someone's name was Dissononce, in which case I would crush him into the ground and take everything that he had for myself and still feel good about it later in my years of wisdom.

This is a sad piece of crap world we live in.  It sucks people are selfish enough to keep inviting more life into it, to decay with their parents.  But this is where we are and money is a key part of the system we live in.  There are good and bad things about it depending on how your going about getting it and what you plan on doing with it I suppose, but speaking for myself, it is a very important role for what I plan to do in my lifetime.  So in other words I won't be giving my money over to charities any time soon.  In respect of that I will never in my life need to take from those charities either.

 

[Dissonance]

No, and its sad that you really believe that, I feel bad for you, honestly. Money does not allow you to live, without money you wont necesarially starve or die. There are lots of communities out there that dont have or use money (amish for example) and that doesnt mean the people starve or freeze. Just because you have no money, doesnt mean your quality of life is going to suck.

Would the amish community ever invent the automobile, the computer, the internet, indoor plumbing, etc?

Do keep in mind that the very same object you are using to communicate with me came about due to a capitalistic drive for wealth.  Money allows us to live as we do right now.  If you want to go farm - by hand - all day in some isolated valley where your wife gives birth twenty times and you only see one child grow past the age of two, be my guest.

This is a rather disgusting statement, you would kill 10,000 people just so you could live comfterably? what, you cant work your way up?

I can, but why bother if I was given this opportunity? 

Its ideals like yours that feed whats wrong with this world, people are stepping on people, our societies are based on stepping over whoever you can to get yours. The current system of things feeds weak minded people like you into believing that its ok to step on your fellow man to get yourself higher on the comfortability notch.

That's life.  That's how life always was, and that's how life always will be.

If you can think of an actual VIABLE alternative that would be both better morally and still give our society all the things we have now, by all means, go right head and tell us.

Fact is you dont need material possessions and large homes filled with shiny stuff to be happy, you've just been taught to think that.

The whole idea that "you can't buy happiness" is something rich people believe because they've always had money.  I seriously doubt you know what it's like to be dirt poor , and if you ever did, you sure as hell have forgotten.

"Money can't buy happiness, but it sure can help."

You guys really need to get it out of your heads that no money = starving, there are other ways to get by, even comfortably, its just where you draw the line morally. You buy into the idea that its easier to step all over people to get your money, and sure, it may be easier....but its just not right

Don't stop there, tell us, what are these other ways you speak of?

Do keep in mind that living like a farmer-villager is not my idea of 'comfortable living'.

So next time your feeling screwed over by someone else in the money department, your just gonna have to take it like a good little boy, cause thats what its all about, right?

Nope, you totally misunderstand.

The system is designed that you step on other people while avoiding getting stepped on yourself.  Your job is to keep the people below you submissive while trying to shake up the people above you.

Life is just one gigantic battle.

Troublesome, true, but you are indeed correct. Perhaps I will never escape the machine fully, as you say, but that wasn't the point of the metaphor. I wasn't saying I was fully removed from society, but rather, I'll just remove myself from the ethos, motivation and ethics of that social context. I won't be 'in the pyramid' and I won't try clamboring for the top. That, at the end of the day, is all.

Society doesn't care about your ethos, motivation, or ethics.  Society cares about you being in the pyramid regardless.  It doesn't matter what you THINK, it matters what you DO, and as long as you're being bent over, what you think about the situation makes no difference.

As for claiming to not be in the pyramid, then never get a job, and never deal in money.  As for not clamoring for the top, then if you DO have a job, never, ever accept a promotion or raise, ever.

I doubt you'll do that.

unless that someone's name was Dissononce

I love you too, honeybunch.  :fap:

 

[Venetia]

It's like they say: If you're a conservative when you're 20, you're heartless. If you're a liberal when you're 40, you're brainless.

It's a saying, people. Don't dissect it.

My advice: Get a family. Work your mother-loving ass off for years. Then try to take a well-deserved vacation, or take some time off when you break a limb or get sick. When the sad realization sets in that you simply can't afford to enjoy your life, or even live the way you deserve ... When your boss lays you off because he doesn't want to take a pay hit during a company slump ... When you get a speeding ticket from a camping cop for going 6 miles over the speed limit, and you can't afford it ... When you realize you haven't been to the dentist in 5 years and you really need to go, but Mr. Dick Insurance decides your root canal isn't really necessary ... When Mr. Repo Man takes your car ... When you look under the Christmas tree and see nothing but some dust ... When you get in a car accident and no one on the highway even bothers to stop ... When you go to the doctor with a headache, and you can't get an MRI, so you're written off as being anemic when you're really blossoming a tumor ... When you find out you owe some credit card company $2k because some dickhead stole your identity after rifling through your garbage ... You'll realize.

Money is happiness. And 99.9999999% of people in the world would gladly piss in your face and fuck your spouse for a buck.

 

[e]

O, wise old (crone) woman, please share your wisdom, accumulated through your fearsome what...24? 25 years?

I know what you meant, but it still seemed somehow condescending and had that superior feel that carried the faint remnant of an aristocrat addressing the plebe...or an old, bitter person addressing an enthusiastic, full of life young man/woman. One could argue that as you get older, you get stiffer in order to reassure yourself, because life becomes more frightful as you grow up.

But that's beside the point. You're claiming that money is happiness, but you're using circular logic. Money is happiness, because without it people will screw you over, because their happiness is money, because without it they'll get screwed, and the ones who screw them over will do it for the money (or, as you'd say, happiness?), and so forth. It's a never ending circle. You work for money because people work for money (and you buy whatever they offer).

So you trudge through your life, clawing your way through and grabbing whatever penny you can get. But then again, for some reason, you never have enough. It seems the more money you get, the more "needs" you develop, and the more money you must spend. Ironic, isn't it? Why work so hard for all this money, when at the end of the day, you'll just need more? It seems more like misery to me.

Then again, you're right on one thing; without money, you'll most likely be miserable. So it's misery on every side? More or less. It all depends on how you look at it, and how you live every day. Some people will never have enough, whilst others will be content with whatever they have, as long as they have enough to live comfortably (i.e. : food, a roof, clothes, the occasional sortie).

On closure, whoever says that "money is happiness", please feel free to expose your thoughts. People have been trying to find a universal definition of happiness for centuries now, and it's practically impossible, seeing as how it's highly subjective and changes based on culture/gender/social class/etc.

So please say that money makes you happy, but not money is happiness, as it's completely inaccurate.

 

[Venetia]

Oh lordy, semantics :tongue:

I suppose I should edit it and say "money brings a greater opportunity for happiness when compared to the investment in relationships necessary to bring an equal quantity of satisfaction from fellow human beings"? I just figured "money is happiness" was simpler, and people'd be able to get what I meant.

Anyway I'm not trying to talk down anyone. I realize that I, myself, am young, as well. I've only been in the working world for about 8 years, and I have a whole lifetime of it ahead of me. But I had a hard time growing up and I was force-fed the real world at an early age. It probably made me pretty bitter. I can say with no doubt that I'm a very pessimistic person. But I've had enough people piss on me for a buck to hold the opinion that money will keep you warmer at night than friends ever will.

Verily, when you get more $$$, you get more debt. It's the way of the world. But said debt is generally comprised of the things that make you happy anyway. Fast cars, nice things, nice house, better medical care, etc. And what do friends give you? A cure to loneliness and ... Uhhh ... Maybe some flowers or something sometimes. Sure, having your own family gives you a grander reason to live, but what worse misery is there than seeing your child starve on Thanksgiving or go to school sick because you can't afford to take them to the doctor?

Life certainly is a neverending circle of misery, and a select few people may make it less miserable, and a fatter paycheck will make it less miserable, but in my opinion, the latter is the better, more fulfilling option, particularly when you're talking about people you'll never know, or acquaintances.

So like I said before, I'd rather be a rich hermit with everything she could want than a pauper in the street with a lot of people who pat me on the back. Sure it's materialistic. But the reality is that everyone is materialistic, even just on a fundamental level, even if they claim they aren't.

 

[e]

Not really. You'll notice that as soon as people get a raise, they'll be on the look-out for another one. And another one. And so forth. Admittedly, some people do stop at some point and are content with what they have, something I believe every should aim for. If you have to toil for decades on something you hate just for the sake of having a couple of millions, then you're wasting your life away. Man values himself through his work, not his paycheck; you'll be remembered for your work, not your paycheck. Who the hell will remember Warren Buffet in a hundred years? No one. And don't get Bill Gates out...he's rich, true enough, but he'll be remembered for having bolstered the microcomputer market and generally made it a mass consumption product.

And no, Venetia, not everything that makes me happy is bought. I'm happy simply singing, or playing music for the sake of it, or writing, or reading, etc. A fast car? What's the point of having a car which can do 200mph when there's no where in the world, except Germany, where you'll be able to use it? I live in Canada, so medical care is already taken care of.

Seriously, no one needs a couple of billions; it won't make you better, or happier. The simple fact of having it will not make you happier. It'll allow you to do more things to make you happy, perhaps, but just buying things at random isn't going to. You have to set goals, ambitions, etc. A nice house is good and all, but after 10 years, it's just your house, not a "nice" house anymore, unless you have some creativity. Money is an instrument; it won't make you magically happy.

 

[Venetia]

The question is: Money or people. Not if money is the root of all happiness. When it's money v. people, for me, money wins.

I know money isn't the root of all happiness, I was just making an on-topic argument for the side I'm on.

Music and writing aren't people, they're hobbies. If I were a hermit, I'd be drawing and writing and pixelling like crazy, because they're hobbies. And money allows you to enjoy your hobbies more (better guitars, supplies, etc.). Also I'm a big fan of suped-up cars, so yeah, that'd make me happy. A hell of a lot happier than a conversation with some jerk on the street.

 

[eharper256]

The question is: Money or people. Not if money is the root of all happiness. When it's money v. people, for me, money wins.

Actually, this is a m00t question. I think this deviated a long time ago, somehow, into a friends vs. cash argument, when in fact, neither are related. A rich person can have just as many friends, but his money can't buy them, and he must ever be wary of people who want to backstab him for the dough. A poor person can be far 'richer', but just not in a financial context, but emotional richness can also never find you friends nor money, and he must ever be wary of people who to tread on him for the possibility of the dough.

And money allows you to enjoy your hobbies more (better guitars, supplies, etc.).

Lul wut? Who convinced you of that? A 'better' guitar rarely makes a 'better' sound. You can sketch just as easily with basic 12p pencils over some expensive world-renowned epic pencil set. You can pixel just as easily with windows paint as you can with Adobe photoshop. That's like saying buying brand merchandise is better, because its branded. About the only time when this statement is strictly true is when a hobby forces you to keep up with the cutting edge, like PC gaming, Trading card games, etc, which continually require an input of cash, or when a hobby may force you to replace equipment, as in 'I broke my Kendo Shinai/snapped the studs from my football shoes/ripped my martial arts gi, again...'

Oh, and rich hermit-ism is overrated, by the way. My aunt can attest for that; she almost went barmy after 3 years of it, marrying a rich property investor, never working, having anything she wanted. They're divorced now.

At the end of the day, I guess its the usual irony: humans become discontent when they are perpetually happy. We are strange creatures that cannot appreciate happiness for happiness' sake. We're instead always thinking up ways to improve the situation, find something to strive for, hence once you become comfortable, it is difficult to not 'try and get up to the next level' and you end up always over-abusing your means. Society, of course, takes advantage of this by offering such easy loan and debt solutions. You can easily achieve many dreams through borrowing money; but the payoff is that society will literally have a dagger to your neck for the rest of your life, until you pay off your debt. Financial guilt, to use the term, again.

 

[Venetia]

Nicer things do make better products. Finer paints create better and more anticipated textures, more expensive guitars generally last longer and sound smoother, expensive cars run faster and look better, nicer clothes make you look better, expensive computers let you game better, etc. Saying you can do just as well with cheap shit is naive because there's a reason why it's cheap. Sure, it doesn't affect your talent. But make a landscape with $0.40 cent acrylic paint, then paint the same thing with the smooth semi-oil acrylic in a tube that goes for $11/tube. You'll get what you want easier, it'll last longer, and look better. Walk into a black tie gala in a polyester suit sometime. Then, enjoy the alley they throw you into.

As for hermitism, it depends on the person. I'm already nearly a hermit now. I wake up, go to my car through my garage, sit in my cubicle, talk to no one really, go home, barely make any contact with the outdoors, and stay home until I have to do it all again. I barely see my husband because we work different hours, and I have no friends that live within a 50mi radius. I probably talk on the phone to someone other than my husband about once a month, and even then I'm antsy to get off the phone. Honestly the only human contact I get is here on the forum, as sad as that sounds, but I'm pretty okay with that. If I had money enough to never worry about leaving my property again, I think I'd be pretty fine with it. I have a LOT of hobbies and interests to keep me going. But some people are a lot more social than others, and I guess they'd have a hard time.

This is all about opinion--you can't argue me into a position of liking people.

 

[Bestone]

Nicer things do make better products.

If your suggesting that more expensive products are ALWAYS better your off your rocker.

Its completely dependant on each individual item, sometimes you have to pay more for quality, sometimes your paying more for simply a name.

I'll give you guys this, im not naive as to how the world works, your perceptions of it are very correct. Right now you step all over your fellow man to get what you want. Those on top sit there laughin as those on bottom stomp all over each other on thier way up.

I get it, i just dont agree with it, and i dont think its necessary, its just the easiest route for us, and we are quite lazy

People who believe thats how it has to be are just too narrow minded to see any other way, they choose to believe "thats the way it is so thats the way i gotta be". I dont buy that, i also dont buy the grand cop-outs people give with that (were human! its human nature).

And like i've stated earlier, thinkin like this, if you ever complain about someone screwing you over for money, someone robbing you, or taxes being raised, or any other way for someone to take money from you, your a hipocrate

Cause thats just how we are right?
thats just how it works, right?

So you just have to shut up an accept it, and do it back to someone else

This is all about opinion--you can't argue me into a position of liking people.

True, and topics like these never end pretty. No-one here is going to be convinced by another person, everyone is too stubborn,  right now your going to see repeat arguments, and points being drilled into other people. Im not going to continue in this thread anymore, i've said my piece, and thats all i can do.