Money

[sixtyandaquarter]

"your friends would give you money" ideals are great.
Sadly they don't work in the real world.  Even if all my friends chipped in $10 while I was getting stable back in the day - they wouldn't be able to have kept it up for long enough.
And I'd never get stable.  Having to pay them all back $10 for every week/month it took.

As far money over human life: yes/no.
Both.

Convicted criminal who I'll have to support for god knows how long they'll live.  One who'll never get better.  Who actually loves what they've done that put them in jail to the point they can cream off on it?
Kill him.

Killing a comatose?
If they want it I've got no worry.  If they are brain dead and have no recovery, I'm not against it.  If there is a chance of them coming out, and they aren't brain dead - if the family is paying for it and can't afford it, what can I say.

 

[Beadly_Dastard]

I'm truly sorry, but I just couldn't resist linking to this: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826

BEST. SPEECH. EVAR! :rock:

 

[___]

I'm not quite sure what you're looking for in this topic so I'll just post my take on it

First off, what is money?  Money represents capitalized resources.  Capitalized means in this context made useful.  For instance, gold in the ground laced through a bunch of granite is not useful to anyone; if I dig up that gold and separate it from the rocks, I have made it useful.  The money that it's worth represents nothing more than the effort I've put into it to find it, secure it and harvest it.  This seems maybe overly simplistic, but that's the whole of it.  The cash value of an item represents the human effort put into transforming it from useless, formless matter into a product.

So, do we overvalue money?  Well, actually our money is in a way undervalued in most of the world.  The actual objective value of most products has not changed very much literally in millennia.  If you look at a resource like gold for instance, which hasn't changed too much in the amount of human effort ultimately put into capitalized it since the dawn of civilization, its value compared to other fairly consistent products has not changed.  A good example I once heard was, in ancient Rome, you could buy a very fine toga, pair of sandals, and belt for around the value of an ounce of gold - today, 900 dollars or so, about the same cost for a really nice business suit (the equivalent product).

What does fluctuate is not the worth of the product so much as the worth of the money representing it through the process of inflation and deflation.  Right now we are experiencing rapid devaluation of our money in America - this is evidenced by the rising value of gold; the dollar is worth less in perspective to the worth of gold so the price of gold per dollar increases.  So in that sense, money is undervalued.

Do we put it above other things that we shouldn't, like our ethical values?  Well that gets down to two questions, one, what is money - above, and two, what is the comparative value of our "principles".  I would assert that we most definitely value products much more highly than we aught to; much of the garbage we strive after in modern society is made of cheap crap and has very little use-value or longevity compared to what a similarly purposed product would have 100 years ago.  Because we are able to accumulate more things due to their reduction in cost, and these things are essentially as ephemeral as they are inexpensive, we're locked in a cycle of disposal and replacement which drives us to constantly purchase new things and more things.  By extension of course we overvalue the money we buy it with and are willing to do more than we probably aught to to get more of it.

People in general though do not value the money itself, they value the objects and privileges they imagine they can acquire through that money.  There are a few people who really do have a problem with money; the kind of people who have more than they literally could ever spend in a lifetime of complete and total extravagant decadence but feel they must continue to strive to have more.  These people, I think, are psychologically ill.  Your average person though once he accumulates enough money to live out the rest of his lifetime in comfort will just quit because they value other aspects of their life more than the pursuit of money.  The biblical adage "the love of money is the root of all evil" is pretty accurate.  People forget that love part a lot though. 

There's nothing wrong with trying to get the things you need to live comfortably, and money is just an abstraction of the resources themselves.  When you get obsessed with the money itself you miss its point, and at that point you've made a mistake.

 

[iceplosion]

Wow...thats like the best response in this entire topic O_o

 

[Jason]

To be honest, I think people who say money are kind of being stupid... and I have reasons.

Yeah, money is great, and lots of it would be amazing, you'd be rich, but what are you going to do with it all ? Blow it all on inanimate objects, then what ? You've wasted it all, got some cool stuff though, but no friends to show off to... Don't you think that would be boring ?

Now, if you have people, friends, what do they do for you ? They help you when your down, they make you laugh, They make you feel good about yourself, and quite franqly (sp?), their just, there for you when you need them. So if you had no money, a true friend would take you in, and find out a way to support both of you, they could look after you, and you'd never go lonely.

People say Money = Happiness, Money > Friends, Money > People. Yeah, that might be true for a little while, but what happens when it's gone ? Will there be happiness in your life ? You have no money, no friends, because you fucked them off to get money, it would just suck big whale dick if you ask me, no one wants that, to be lonely.

Another big part I forgot, what about Family ? yeah, no friends is one thing, but no family would suck, what if you were married, and one day you woke up, everyone on earth except you was gone ? Your wife/husband, your children, your parents, aunties, uncles, brothers, sisters, cousins. Everyone you've ever loved would be gone, and at what price ? Money ? You'd get rid of everyone for money ? What will you spend it on ? Would you buy a new car ? Wait, who's going to sell it to you ? You could take it and no one would know, Would you buy a new 60" HDTV ? Wait, who's going to sell it to you ? You could take it and no one would know, Money would then become inanimate, you wouldn't need it, it would be useless, you've traded everyone for paper, Kind of reminds me of scrooge, cares more about money than anyone, and to be honest, I hope anyone that chooses money over people get a visit from those three ghosts, too bad their not real.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I love when people say you'd have all this money but no friends.
It's so cliche and anticlimactic.  Same with the few arguments where money makes friends as a rule.

I know money can't buy happiness but it doesn't cancel it out either people, do you really have to be poor to have friends?  To have a good time?  What about just being friends with people who are likewise rich if we want to be so stiff we can't see two "classes" hanging out -ohmygodno!never!

I mean hell.
Name something you do with your friends and believe it or not there's no prerequisite for you to have below a certain coinage.  Even amusement parks you can get in for free with a can of Coke and you don't even need to buy it, you could steal it from someone's recycling can on the curb.

 

[iceplosion]

Well yeah but the argument is that some people value money more than other people, it's nothing to do with how much money you actually have.

 

[Venetia]

Are we talking about having 0 people in the world against 0 money in your pocket ever?

Or are we talking about having no friends vs. having just barely enough scratch to survive?

.... I'd still take money, either way. The showerhead is good enough for those lonely winter nights and I don't have any friends, anyway.

I mean, it sucks to be lonely, but it sucks a lot more to work yourself to death just to worry if you can afford food that week.

 

[___]

Who would have ever suspected the showerhead could serve a dual purpose...  The showerhead-on-a-hose begs a shower big enough for two, so you buy a 14-dollar device and end up wanting 2000 bucks worth of remodling, fucking money!

 

[Beadly_Dastard]

The biblical adage "the love of money is the root of all evil" is pretty accurate.  People forget that love part a lot though. 

Why is the love of money bad?

I'm going to quote Rand here, so try not to get too pissed off, K?:

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it."

This is knid of taken out of context, but her general idea is still preserved, in my opinion.

 

[___]

No, Rand is correct in her context, in my context I mean "love of money" as in obsession with money as an object.  That as opposed to a deep appreciation of money as an abstraction of the product of effort.  The fundamental problem here of course is that "love" in the English language is way too ambiguous and broadly applied.  A better statement would be "the obsession with money as an end unto itself is the root of all evil" maybe.   It's still arguable of course, but a much better basis for discussion if you wanted to have one.

 

[Clockwise]

Money in the context of being a medium of exchange that holds value between multiple parties is a very important thing in todays specialized society. As it is what allows us to trade for things that might other wise be impossible. An example one of my profs used was that she would have a hard time going to the theater if she had to trade with lectures.

But it appears this topic is more about money in terms of stuff, our wealth, the possessions we own, or some may even say our "quality of life".

In which I would have to agree Nphyx
The problem does not lie in liking money or things but loving them.
Now I'm not talking about necessities but rather when the quest for more becomes greater then your love for other things. It doesn't take much to see how loving money over others is one large reason why there is so much inequality and pain in the world...all one has to do is look at the past when slavery was legal.

As for the quote Beadly_Dastard used,
I would agree that people should work hard for what they get and that there is no problem about being happy in what you and others archive.
But I sure hope the best of myself doesn't go into getting things, I'd much rather spend my heart and soul in other people. Not to be remembered in what I have left behind but how I've touched people I've met.

And This line I can't really agree with.

It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

As I know there are many people that will work everyday harder then I will probably ever know how to work, that likely don't "love money" and will be forced into making that $0.05. While there are an awful lot of people that make tons of money and barely lift a finger simple cause of their circumstances. (Just look at the guys that made youtube).


So like I said I have nothing against money and things themselves
but I think ppl are much more important .

Sadly though our society generally advertises the other, and regrettably we all fall atleast a little  ways into it.

 

[Trek22]

It takes a sick bastard to want to keep someone alive on a machine when they have little to no chance of recovering.  Torture anyone?  You should be beaten. 

Money comes first in 9 out of 10 cases involving people.  If it comes to family I care about and close friends then I'd put them first.  Thats about the only exception.  You can't get anywhere without money lest your going to beg and steal, you've got to eat, end of story.  I've been hungry.  There was a time recently in my last move where my roomate and I were rationing out ramen noodle packets and not eating for 2-3 days at a time.  We did it cause we had to but that shit is anything but fun.  Money is important, and it plays a key part in my future endeavors.  To travel you need it and I plan on doing a lot of that in my lifetime.  Just to see with my own eyes if the rest of the world is as broken as the United States happens to be at the moment. 

Its funny when people think money is not important.  You have no ambitions in life I guess, cause if you did, your going to need it.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

It takes a sick bastard to want to keep someone alive on a machine when they have little to no chance of recovering.  Torture anyone?  You should be beaten.

And yet the very same could be said of the reverse - only remove torture and replace with death.

Face it.  Unless the dream of resurrecting the dead with a pill and a charge of ions becomes common place, this argument will continue breeding.  This has little to do with money anyway in my opinion.
You say it's torture, someone else says it's murder - the money is a mere excuse.

 

[e]

To sum it all up :

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money, there is nothing quite as beautiful as cash. Some people say it's folly, but I'd rather have the lolly; with money you can make a splash!

There is nothing quite wonderful as money, there is nothing like a newly minted pound. Everyone must hanker for the butchness of a banker, it's accountancy that makes the world go round.

You can keep your Marxist ways, but it's only just a phase, for it's money that makes the world go round!

 

[Trek22]

It takes a sick bastard to want to keep someone alive on a machine when they have little to no chance of recovering.  Torture anyone?  You should be beaten.

And yet the very same could be said of the reverse - only remove torture and replace with death.

Face it.  Unless the dream of resurrecting the dead with a pill and a charge of ions becomes common place, this argument will continue breeding.  This has little to do with money anyway in my opinion.
You say it's torture, someone else says it's murder - the money is a mere excuse.

Your right it has little to do with money, but it was used as an example earlier in this thread and that was my take on the example.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I was more meant towards the arbitrary argument that pops up involving money for the pursuit of life and death, as opposed to your statements.  And I meant murder not death :\
Oh well.

My opinion:
If I'm not paying for the schmuck I don't know and will never know, I could care less.  Theories involving the what if's won't abide by my logic, I've heard people say "If they lived they might've done something great that helped you out a lot" - but they could also have an equal chance of fucking me over with said something great.  So I pay those comments no mind.

The idea to me is if someone is willing to pay for it let them.  If someone doesn't, why force them.  Either literally in taxes or by social stigmas.  No one should be forced to support life, such as no one should be forced to extinguish it - let those involved deal with it and let that be their concerned weight.

If I get in a coma, I'd happily survive on a machine if I'll come out of it - but if it's gonna break everyone I know in half financially and all that jazz, fuck it.  Don't even bother unplugging me, just smother me and see if the machine can keep up.  Make a fun little game out of it - a race.

 

[sicness]

I hate money. If I were to die of starvation because I couldn't afford food or shelter or what not I'd just be happy to have just one person remember me when I'm gone. One person to remember is worth any gold coin.

 

[Trek22]

I hate money. If I were to die of starvation because I couldn't afford food or shelter or what not I'd just be happy to have just one person remember me when I'm gone. One person to remember is worth any gold coin.

I'm sorry, I've got to call you on this one.  Like you would ever be caring about that one person when your friggen starving in the cold.  If you did then its really because your crazy.

 

[Dissonance]

I hate money.

Then give me all of yours.

If you won't, it's obvious you don't hate money.

Hating money is like hating a coupon or a preorder slip.  The objects themselves mean nothing, but you can trade them in for something you actually desire.