thelivingphoenix":1grk08x3 said:
To comment on people in Europe "manipulating" people into having large families, that's crazy. People had large families years ago for a number of reasons, such as helping on the farm or in the family business (labor the parents didn't have to pay for), to make sure there was a legitimate heir, and to guard against not having anyone to take care of them in their old age. Children used to be put to doing something constructive as soon as they could walk and that's probably how I'll be with my kids. My niece was helping wash dishes when she wasn't quite 4 years old. My stepdad has about 6 brothers and sisters and all were expected to help keep the house clean and work in the garden, etc. I don't think anyone was "manipulated" into having a large family; they had large families because there was a legitimate need to have more children in order to survive. Large families have dropped off since the end of the farming era and the beginning of the industrial era and the usage of oil as a source of energy and for no other reason. It's not due to any decline in religious influence at all and to believe such is ludicrous.
You're talking about exactly what I'm referring to.
In the point of view of the common person, they believed that they were having kids to help out around the farm etc. And for all practical purposes, that's what happened. Families would have kids in the double digit numbers for free labour.
It just so happened that it was also
very advantageous for the ruling class if the commoners bred like rabbits, so it was actively encouraged. If a man has a large family to support and a lot of work to do, he's less likely to travel or rebel against the ruling power. The commoners didn't realize that they were doing exactly what their government at the time wanted them to do - exactly the thing that kept them in the lower class.
Diaforetikos":1grk08x3 said:
Murder removes life from the world while willful incest does no such thing.
So? What does that have to do with murder being decided as being bad? Murder is unwilling death. But willing death is just as bad. The person who killed the one who wanted to die will still go to jail(in America. I don't know about other countries).
How is willing incest not bad if willful death is?
Willful death isn't bad. If a person has a real reason to want to kill themselves (or be killed) I have no problem. I can't think of a logical reason as to why I should object to it.
Just to clarify... A good reason is something like "I'm going to survive for three months in horrible agony oh god kill me now", not "wah my parents don't understand meeee \\_-;;;"
Diaforetikos":1grk08x3 said:
What if you found out your brother and your sister were doing it? Would that be ok? People's respect for your family will drop. Plus, your ok with it. Your friends would find out that your ok with it. Not only is your rep bad, there is no respect for you or your family, and your life won't be the happiest. You can try to live it happily, but it won't be easy. Is that ok?
You're talking about cultural consequences, not natural ones. It is quite possible that a culture exists, has existed, or will exist where the opposite of everything you said is true - people's respect for your family will increase due to sexual involvement between your brother and sister, etc etc.
Besides, I generally don't care what other people think about my life. I'm concerned with what is right, not with what others think.
Diaforetikos":1grk08x3 said:
Besides that, why is it so bad? Its not natural. For you to say it is would mean that incest should be too. Death being a bad thing is natural. Try to hurt a animal and watch it flee. Natural. Death is bad. So why isn't incest or homosexuality?
Let's assume you're right for a minute. I'll cede every point that you've made to you for the sake of argument.
So what?
Even if it's, as you say' not natural', why is that a valid reason not to do it? Where is the logical connection between "X is an unnatural act" and "we should not do X"?
Simply saying "IT'S UNNATURAL" doesn't mean that a person shouldn't do it.