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Incest

This topic has come up in a couple of other threads but we might as well get somethin' goin' about it on it's own.  It's the only controversial topic we haven't touched on yet I think.

Incest is probably the most uniformly adopted taboo across the world's cultures.  That's not to say that incest is uniformly banned by everyone everywhere, but in the history of our planet, more cultures across time have banned incest than homosexuality, drug use, etc.

Our current culture is radically anti-incest.  Not only are we taught to not engage in incest and see it as extremely abhorrent, we are also taught not to even consider the topic logically.  There are stories of people who wanted to discuss the topic from a logical perspective, and were completely shot down by surrounding people who thought that any position other than complete disgust (even if it was a bias-neutral one) was insulting.  If you want to see what I mean, guess how many "HOW CAN YOU EVEN TALK ABOUT THIS" posts I get.  :3  Incest in our popular culture is a reasonably common topic.  A significant amount of it is created for erotic purposes, but there are some pieces that wish to seriously examine themes of incest and follow the characters involved as they struggle with their emotions.  It's generally censored and considered a taboo subject despite which approach the work takes, however.

Long before we knew the specifics of genetics, and the disorders that can arise from children created from incestuous relationships, it was still considered a taboo.  In many cultures, the incest taboo made no sense by itself, but was rather a link in a long chain of laws banning sexual behaviour in order to keep people's familial structure in a formation that was easily controllable by the powers of the time.

(Example - banning incest does nothing to the general populace, but if you ban along with it homosexual behaviour, sexual relations outside of marriage, methods of birth control available at the time, and encouraging young marriages, the predominantly Christian rulers of early Europe were able to manipulate their subjects into having large families.  Even discounting the children that didn't survive past infancy, they still had at least 10 children that survived into adulthood.  Having a nation full of adults with job responsibilities and 10 children weighing them down discouraged movement, non-menial labour, and generated lots of taxes and subservient peasants for the rulers to use.  Long story short, the Christian values that today's Christians hold so dear are actually the remains of an ancient system used to keep people in check.  No surprise here.)

However, now we know about the genetic problems that can arise from a child born of incest.  And I feel that obviously, that shouldn't be allowed unless we can find a way to correct the damage.  It only harms the child if we knowingly allow them to be born with genetic regression.

But sexual contact between family members that doesn't result in children?  There's no logical reason as to why it shouldn't be allowed.  Even if you think of your brother or sister IRL and say "no way would I ever do it", that's not a sufficient enough reason to impose those arbitrary morals on another couple who is so inclined.  As long as the people involved are consenting, and they have no intention to produce a child, there's no logical problem with it.

But what do you think? :3
 
Taken straight from good ol' Wiki, Incest is sexual activity between closely related persons (often within the immediate family) that is illegal or socially taboo. If this is indeed the incest that we are talking about, here are my views.

Genetically, morally, ethically... it's all wrong. For years people have known that breeding within families produces semi-retarded offspring. It has been proven with the royal family (can't quite find a link). It's not legal in most states, and I believe, unlike homosexual relationships sexual or otherwise, should stay illegal.

As long as they're not open about it, I'd be fine with others having an incestious relationship. It's a totally different breed from homosexuality though... I don't think it should be embraced.
 
personally, i dont think it should be legal. The consequences of legalising such an act is potentially hazardous. Incest, in the end causes the same (or similar) affects as child abuse or torture. Not that im suggesting that child abuse or torture is in the least acceptable and i only compare them because the physical and emotional effects can be compared.

I remember in a legal studies class we read this article on a brother and sister in germany, where the family split up when the berlin wall was made. The mother and two sisters were on the west side, whereas the brother was stranded on the east. After the wall was destroyed the brother tracked down the family and was reunited, where he promptly fell in love with his sister. He has since been jailed twice for insest.

I think that if two people wish to have an incestual relationship, they could, as long as they keep the relationship private.
 

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gavdaddy":hrx3mnwy said:
I think that if two people wish to have an incestual relationship, they could, as long as they keep the relationship private.

Well thats a matter of viewpoints. If people wish to pursue their incestuous behavior publicly, thats up to them. I dont see what it hurts, I mean its not really going to change much except what people might think of them.

Although, because of this self-consciousness insight, most people dont claim it publicly. I dont agree with it, but I dont care at the same time because its not effecting anyone outside of that person's family usually.
 
For that reason alone (what people would think of you) would be reason enough for me to keep it private if I was in said such incestous relationship.

Each to their own, I guess. Personally it sickens me. Possibly in the same way how homosexuality sickens certain people.
 
I don't want to say this... but I'm going to play my usual hand in things.  Personally I'd be saying something different but I'm in an argument absent mood so I'm going to play nice.

Fuck it.  Have fun.  Wear a condom.  Take birth control.  Do not breed.  I don't give a fuck.

I don't like it.  I think it's bad only because of the possible side effects that would come along with the vast majority of children born in such conditions.  I wouldn't fuck my sister.  I couldn't think of doing that.  But I'm not going to say no one else could.  Honestly, if the guy was sterile or the chick was barren - have fun all you want you sick demented people.  I'm sure you'd go ewwl to my private life, so let me go ewwl to yours - just don't give birth, please for the love of god don't give birth to another kid whose just going to be fucked in the end.

That's it really.  The Romans, the Greek, the English, the Chinese - hell almost every great ruling party in every great nation from one age to another was run by incest laden folk.  Though it was pride that dealt it, if it wasn't for the baby born with half a functioning brain (if that), I honestly can't say anything other than ewwl.
 
Technically nothing wrong with it.

But the taboo has exists since the year dot because humans are genetically inclined to find it abhorrent. Its hard to explain what exactly causes it, but if you know thats your brother or sister, you just ~cannot~ easily conjure thoughts of making love with them. Its the same precautionary mental block that stops one leaping off cliffs and eating shit off the floor. Thats not to say you can never do these things, much like you can override your natural instinct to live, and leap off a cliff, or eat shit despite your smell and taste buds screaming for mercy. Its just overcoming the natural barrier. And it gets easier each time you do it.

In all perfect honesty, I believe that its been scientifically proven that having it off with your sister is actually only about twice as likely to produce genetic defects. And in fact, long lines of incest can actually improve and strengthen your families gene pool, so long as some outside source refreshes it from time to time and the weak or mutant examples do not reproduce. First Cousins, Uncles and other such relatives make for about a 20-30% increase in issues, or something suchlike, and things like Second Cousins are almost entirely safe, with only about a 4% increase in the chance that your childrens genetics will go spazz out. Don't quote me on that stuff, but at least thats my understanding.

We use genetics as a further excuse these days, but its circumstantial evidence is low. You're just accepting that there might be more risks than usual, but equally, theres just as good a chance that your kids will be fine. Mainly, its just the terrifying social stigma that attaches to it that prevents most incest.
 
Zeus and Hera were siblings who married and had children.
In fact their grandparents were Uranus and Gaia, a son who took his own mother as wife.  Most of the Titans practices incest, as did many of the actual gods.

There are boat loads of incest in the Torah/Bible.  Kain, Abel, and Seth all married their sisters, and their children all married each other.  Jewish law doesn't even outlaw incest actually, it does though say no sexual encounters with in-laws, aunts, or uncles.

Egyptians have had almost no taboo against incest, as many great pharaohs married family, gods married siblings, and that it wasn't an illegal act in the record of laws.  Neither did a nice chunk of the Middle East and Africa.  Not to mention a load of Asian areas.  Very few mythologies/religions actually dictate no incest, one of the rare ones being of Norse, where Loki at one time declares other gods of committing the act, to which they are then in a chain of events killed by siblings and sons.

It is a complete fallacy to say we naturally inclined to find it abhorrent, when all the great religions of the world practically stood for it.  We modeled these faiths to live by and lead others, if we were so naturally against it why would it have been such a prevalent part of our history, and why so much with our own faiths?  We find very little in our loves to be abhorrent simply by our existence, so ingrained in our chemical and biological make up that we simply "know" it's wrong.  By the simple thought of saying "if you know", when if it was such a native thing to our systems, we'd already know.  We'd simply be able to tell naturally without a problem.
 
eharper256":15vo8p7c said:
We use genetics as a further excuse these days, but its circumstantial evidence is low. You're just accepting that there might be more risks than usual, but equally, theres just as good a chance that your kids will be fine. Mainly, its just the terrifying social stigma that attaches to it that prevents most incest.

There Áre more risks then usual, we don't assume that - you can even 'proove' that yourself. It seems that you never even had basic genetics, else you would have known that people who's genetic code is more alike, the higher the risks of having a baby with defects is.

Many disorders/defects are recessive, meaning if, and only if on both chromosones this gen is active, you'll be having the disorder/defect (mostly caused by NOT making an proteïn). You will be called carrier if you have one recessive gen, and one dominant gen, as you carry the code for the disorder, but are in perfect health.

So, recessive allel q of gen I (it's not x-chromosomal or anything, just a simplified ex.) can cause an dissease that strikes 1 out of 10000 people. around 100 out of 10000 are carrier.

Example: One parent is carriër
Parent Codes Qq QQ
Results: 25% Qq 75% QQ

First Childs have 25% on being carriër

subex. 1: breeding with brother/sister
Parent codes: 2x(25% Qq 75% QQ)
in case of both QQ, all childs are QQ
in case of one Qq, see parents results
in case of two Qq, 25% qq, 50% Qq, 25% QQ

chance .25 * .25 * .25 that first brother + sister + their first child will have that dissorder!

subex. 2: breeding with someone else
Parent codes: 1x(25% Qq 75% QQ) 1x(0.01% qq, 1% Qq, 98.9% QQ)

chance .25 * .0101 * (.0001 * .75 + .01 * .25) that both parents are either carrier or defect. and their child is defect.

There is your evidence.

Therefore, they can have sex, if they want - but they shouldn't. Don't legalize it, if they have to, they'll find the way to do it anyway. It's just geneticly wrong, aswell as ethical; you should not fuck with family - in all ways.
 
eharper256":sbl4mrlj said:

Don't quote me on that stuff, but at least thats my understanding.
Therefor I'm trying to chance your understanding :)

At what point did I say there weren't risks?

Not exactly but:

...but equally, theres just as good a chance that your kids will be fine...

Assuming that you meant that the risks aren't significant - or not even there. The formula's weren't solely for you, but jsut to rule out any discussion on: 'no risks'.

double of 3% is still just 6%
Wikipedia? I still can't believe they put that graph up :S

Mother age  down syndromes
30    1 in 900
35 1 in 400
36 1 in 300
37 1 in 230
38 1 in 180
39 1 in 135
40 1 in 105
42 1 in 60
44 1 in 35
46 1 in 20
48 1 in 16
49 1 in 12
50    1 in 6
Source: Hook, E.G. Lindsjo, A. Down Syndrome in Live Births by Single Year Maternal Age (matches other sources btw)

(not to prove anything to you, just some number for everyone :D)
 
...but equally, theres just as good a chance that your kids will be fine...

Well, whenever I say 'equally' I imply each side is as strong as one another. That it could go either way. As in 50% or 1 in 2. Hardly the chance most would relish taking, especially when it came to ensuring the best future of their offspring. Sorry if that was ambigiously implied.

double of 3% is still just 6%
Wikipedia? I still can't believe they put that graph up :S


I didn't get that from wikipedia, but I take it I'm being a moron by suggesting that 6% is double of 3%. I suppose, depending on how you think about it, it could be a multiplying probability, rather than a flat doubling. But theres a reason I did English at higher education, lol. The fact I got a B at GCSE math was probably down to luck and perfect scores in the geometrical and calculator papers. I couldn't do a quadratic equation or a percentile sum to save my life, on the other hand. Heck, if I were better at numbers, I'd have been a computer games programmer, lol.

Source: Hook, E.G. Lindsjo, A. Down Syndrome in Live Births by Single Year Maternal Age

This table implies one thing: don't screw your older sister, screw your younger one. ROFL. Excuse that tastelessness, LOL, but I couldn't resist. :D
 
Me(tm)":btovceqx said:
eharper256":btovceqx said:
We use genetics as a further excuse these days, but its circumstantial evidence is low. You're just accepting that there might be more risks than usual, but equally, theres just as good a chance that your kids will be fine. Mainly, its just the terrifying social stigma that attaches to it that prevents most incest.

There Ã
 
Incest is just wrong, sex outside of marriage and just for the heck of it is wrong. 

Although I suppose for a time in the beginning (regardless of your belief, evolution, God) Incest had to have occurred in order to bring us to where we are today.  There was a time for its usefulness and now it has passed we don't need it and it's just bad for health reasons anyway. 

Which is interesting because if incest produces these results why didn't we just die out in the early years?
 
Although I suppose for a time in the beginning (regardless of your belief, evolution, God) Incest had to have occurred in order to bring us to where we are today.  There was a time for its usefulness and now it has passed we don't need it and it's just bad for health reasons anyway.

Actually, as far as I'm aware, 'true' Incest only occurs in creationism, not evolution. Even if one traces DNA back 150,000 years to the so called 'Mitochondrial Eve', or back 90,000 years to the theoretical 'Nuclear Adam', these merely form the base genetics that would eventually derive our species. Our base common ancestors are seperated by tens of thousands of years; and chances are, in the meantime, they wouldn't have seeked out other Homo Sapiens, but most likely would have done with the other homonids (Homo Erectus, et al.) that would have been around. Even if the mating partners were technically a different species, they would have been similar enough for it to work, and the species would have come about from (presumably) various random mutations.

By the time we actually get sets of Homo Sapiens mating and culture developing, (40,000 years ago or so, I think) Incest is theoretically less likely. Though obviously, hardly impossible. 

This is really going off topic, but I felt the need to point that out. Me(tm) may wish to correct my details (though my  science is slightly better than my math)...
 
Sorry if that was ambigiously implied.
No worries. I just wanted to make sure that people don't get to think it's a fifty-fifty, as if your child is born with trisomy-21 or translocation-21, the kid is 100% screwed.

This table implies one thing: don't screw your older sister, screw your younger one. ROFL. Excuse that tastelessness, LOL, but I couldn't resist. :D

Actually, if it came down to it, if they have to, do it before you turn 30 (to answer the topics question)
 
If incest is done to distant relative who doesn't share the same genes. I don't have much against it. But people should follow the law.

I haven't got much to say about it.
 
If incest is ok, then murder is ok.

Who said that murdering was bad? Killing another person only seems bad to us because it has been embedded into our brains. But who said killing is horrible. I never got that. Same with incest. Who decided it was a bad thing and then we all agreed? Not this guy.

We only know what we put in our brains or what was randomly put in our brains. The idea that incest is horrible means that murder is horrible. Yes they are 2 different subjects, but the basis on which we decided that these things are bad are pretty much the same.

I personally don't believe that incest is a good thing. Even if its behind closed doors. But who am I to say.

The sick feeling that we get when we see someone or something die is horrible. I can't explain how or why it is horrible, but it is. It can't be natural though. It has to be programmed into our brains. If it were natural, wouldn't animals feel bad if they saw something dead, or they killed something? Animals aren't as ingenious as humans, but the have feelings. Very off topic.

I don't get it. I don't think being homosexual is ok, but that is an idea that has been implanted into my brain. Why would incest or murder be any different?
 
Why would it be different?
I have a totally different thought I guess.

Homosexuality isn't bad because it doesn't hurt people, nor does it take lives.  I have no quarrel with homosexuality and support those who are homosexual in todays world.

Incest is mostly bad simply because it can hurt people and can kill (the offspring).  I don't like incest and find it appalling, but leave out children and keep it to yourself - I won't care.

Murder on the other hand hurts people.  It down right causes pain and suffering and the lose of life.  I don't like murder, and often enough will find it appalling.  But it, to me is much more acceptable than incest in public life.  Then again my whole definition of murder is skewed, so...

But there's a good point there.  It's bad because we were taught it was bad.  A few thousand years ago, it wasn't so bad.  Almost every religion has it's cases of incest, almost every great ruling body has too.  Naturally when it came to certain extreme (?) situations it was even more preferred by parents - I mean when it comes to back in the day when the parent of a female might have to pay massive amounts and political ties and such were so awfully involved.  But nowadays in the Western World, it's simply just appalling.
 
Diaforetikos":3ustmbfj said:
If incest is ok, then murder is ok.

lolwut

Diaforetikos":3ustmbfj said:
Who said that murdering was bad? Killing another person only seems bad to us because it has been embedded into our brains. But who said killing is horrible. I never got that. Same with incest. Who decided it was a bad thing and then we all agreed? Not this guy.

Killing somebody is the removal of life from this world.  And it's permanent.  You can't really take it back.  There's no such thing as 'un-murdering' somebody.  Let's say that a person, counting in his exercise, eating habits, etc etc, was going to live around 80 years, and you killed him at 50 years.  That means that not only have you put him through pain of death, you have removed the memories and experiences that he would have collected over those 30 years, as well as impacting the lives of those he would've encountered during those years.  People do have a right not to be killed.

Meanwhile, incest isn't like that at all.  It doesn't result in death.  And it's not actually permanent either.  When you stick your dick in your sister you always have the option of pulling back out if you want.  If the people who DO stick their dicks in their sisters do so willingly, that obviously feel that it's a good thing.  It's a life choice for them and I don't have the authority to tell them not to.

Diaforetikos":3ustmbfj said:
We only know what we put in our brains or what was randomly put in our brains. The idea that incest is horrible means that murder is horrible. Yes they are 2 different subjects, but the basis on which we decided that these things are bad are pretty much the same.

No.  Murder removes life from the world while willful incest does no such thing.

Diaforetikos":3ustmbfj said:
The sick feeling that we get when we see someone or something die is horrible. I can't explain how or why it is horrible, but it is. It can't be natural though. It has to be programmed into our brains.

I agree that it's a programmed response, because I don't get the same response as you when I see dead things.

enjoy your jj.am :3 :3 :3

Diaforetikos":3ustmbfj said:
I don't get it. I don't think being homosexual is ok, but that is an idea that has been implanted into my brain. Why would incest or murder be any different?

This is exactly why you have no right to tell people who want to have sex with their same sex or their family that they can't.  Your morality is programmed, not natural, so following your morality won't be natural too - there will be no benefit to nature whatsoever.

Murder is different because it's the permanent removal of a life - Murder gets in the way of allowing people to be homosexual, or have incestuous relationships, or whatever other desire they wish to pursue.
 

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