Il/legal Immigration

[Trek22]

But really if employers had to pay illegal immigrants a living wage then there would be no advantage to hiring an illegal immigrant. Not that that really matters because illegal immigrants don't actually steal jobs from Americans.

Alas jobs don't have to pay illegal immigrants a living wage, and it doesn't hurt the immigrants because they fit 6 families into one house and send all the money back to Mexico where they return to every year.  And since you pulled the "don't steal jobs from Americans right out of your ass I'm guessing you don't live anywhere close to an area that has an immigrant problem such as Arizona, Nevada, etc, and this was a stupid armchair statement am I correct?

See they steal jobs by offering to work $12 dollar an hour jobs for $6 dollars an hour, such as landscaping, construction, anything labor driven.  And the catch is since they share their living status with so many other families and get so many discounts from the gov't and state in both healthcare and food that they can afford to do this and it is just like they are working for that $12 an hour wage.  I've lived in a few hotspots for this kind of problem in both Arizona, and in Nevada and its quite irritating when another dumbfuck American comes up with a statement that holds no foundation on this topic. 

Surprisingly I'm not a racist, big shocker to you I'm sure.  I'm also not an idiot and won't keep my mouth shut when someone is trying to walk all over me, my family, or my country.  Its in my opinion that anyone who chooses to side with an openly invading force, is in fact an anti-American and can show themselves to the border.

 

[Demodronik]

You've opened my eyes! The invading force is upon us!
"DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!"

 

[Trek22]

You've opened my eyes! The invading force is upon us!
"DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!"

Perhaps you forget when there were hundreds of thousands of immigrant protesters in all the major cities of the USA a few years back waving upside down American flags flying beneath a Mexican flag.  And I do say hundreds of thousands as it was estimated to be half a million protesters in both the cities of Los Angeles and in Houston Texas.  Many in my area was hoping for a coup against the United States shouting down about how they will take it back like they did the Alamo.  Though how many Mexican soldiers died at the Alamo against a mere handful of US citizens before it fell? 

Anyway, the numbers were real, and many many many immigrants think this land is still Mexico.  You need to get yourself educated because you are an embarrassment thinking you're a patriot.

 

[Demodronik]

Your argument is far too perfect, educated, and completely founded.
You win! :lol:

"Dey tuk er jerbs!"

 

[Trek22]

Your argument is far too perfect, educated, and completely founded.
You win! :lol:

"Dey tuk er jerbs!"

I was actually surprised to see your 20 years old, but as you have no argument, you've yet to show intelligence, but you felt the need to share your weak opinion without merit then I suppose this argument is over.  Its too bad it could have been a debate but never made it there.

 

[Demodronik]

When you resort to name calling...

surprised to see your 20 years old

You need to get yourself educated

you are an embarrassment

I'm also not an idiot and won't keep my mouth shut

there really is nothing that can be done.

Do you honestly believe that Mexico is going to wage war (a coup) on America?
It's just far too ridiculous to even fathom.

 

[Trek22]

there really is nothing that can be done.

Do you honestly believe that Mexico is going to wage war (a coup) on America?
It's just far too ridiculous to even fathom.

I honestly don't know.  Mexico itself, no probably at least not directly backed by their gov't.  But as for the il/legal immigrants already in the country and those still coming across the border...  If half a few million protestors in several major cities suddenly rioted, how much damage do you think could be done?  I'm going to have to start citing sources I can see, and I don't have the time tonight.  I'll get back to this thread when I have the chance to post something with substance.  But no, I sure as hell don't think that it should be ignored.

 

[Incognitus]

But really if employers had to pay illegal immigrants a living wage then there would be no advantage to hiring an illegal immigrant. Not that that really matters because illegal immigrants don't actually steal jobs from Americans.

Alas jobs don't have to pay illegal immigrants a living wage, and it doesn't hurt the immigrants because they fit 6 families into one house and send all the money back to Mexico where they return to every year.  And since you pulled the "don't steal jobs from Americans right out of your ass I'm guessing you don't live anywhere close to an area that has an immigrant problem such as Arizona, Nevada, etc, and this was a stupid armchair statement am I correct?

See they steal jobs by offering to work $12 dollar an hour jobs for $6 dollars an hour, such as landscaping, construction, anything labor driven.  And the catch is since they share their living status with so many other families and get so many discounts from the gov't and state in both healthcare and food that they can afford to do this and it is just like they are working for that $12 an hour wage.  I've lived in a few hotspots for this kind of problem in both Arizona, and in Nevada and its quite irritating when another dumbfuck American comes up with a statement that holds no foundation on this topic. 

Surprisingly I'm not a racist, big shocker to you I'm sure.  I'm also not an idiot and won't keep my mouth shut when someone is trying to walk all over me, my family, or my country.  Its in my opinion that anyone who chooses to side with an openly invading force, is in fact an anti-American and can show themselves to the border.

WHY was there so much backlash against the bill or whatever (can't remember) that was around a few years ago which made it binding to standardise wages across the board with the aim of undoing the above? :\

 

[pewpewpew]

Well what jobs do the illegal immigrants take? Factory line jobs, and unskilled labor. If you get an education or even a GED, you'd make yourself immune to getting your job stolen by a mexican.

There are problems with illegal immigration... drugs, crime, etc.

But I would hardly get upset over losing yer jerb.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Well what jobs do the illegal immigrants take? Factory line jobs, and unskilled labor. If you get an education or even a GED, you'd make yourself immune to getting your job stolen by a mexican.

No.

I have a GED.  I get fired a lot from jobs, and very little labor is involved - and who replaces me?  Someone who is from below the boarder - and yes, gets paid under the table.  I know this because I was hired by a different department who did wages, and couldn't put their earnings in the books.

And I was very angry losing that job.  It was a great job for my schedules and paid well.  All I had to do was sit at a computer, I could use internet, and really honestly my job was to send e-mails.  That was it.  Automated e-mails, I'd just read the e-mail,and see which automated response to give.
I'd click a button and boom done, this was my job.  And it was "stolen" because the place was going under and needed to save money.
GED + non labor job + angry I lost the job.  Argument seems flat.

Though I can't blame either my former boss nor the "illegal" who got the job.  They both were doing what was right for themselves.

 

[So fist]

WHY was there so much backlash against the bill or whatever (can't remember) that was around a few years ago which made it binding to standardise wages across the board with the aim of undoing the above? :\

Hmm.  I'm not sure exactly of what you speak.  Do you mean an international minimum wage?  Lots of factors in that make it utterly unworkable, and they have to do with sovereignty and trade. 

Okay we all agree the bare minimum should be x.  How do I know country "A" is following that rule?  Are they and all of the companies that do business with them going to open their books to the international community?  Who enforces this "law", and what penalties shall be made for non-compliance?  Fines? Trading penalties? Lawsuits?  Embargoes?  Then there is the fact that all countries are at different levels of development and require different survival levels of wages.  How do you account for that?  To put it briefly an international wage treaty is a huge can of worms even before you try and pitch it to corporations and labor unions.

 

[m_artist200]

There are problems with illegal immigration... drugs, crime, etc.

Believe it or not, most illegal immigrants avoid commiting crimes.  I think the actual percentage of illegal immigrants in federal prision is below the 5%-7% mark for inmate population.  Of the inmates being held, not all of them neccessarily commited a crime.  Often times, they're just kinda thrown there while the deportation process goes on.  Illegal immigrants are smart enough to figure out that if they commit a crime, the cops might start looking for them.  And, should the cops find them, they'll immedietly find out that they're illegal immigrants and deport them.  Granted, there are illegal immigrants that fill that whole drug-runner sterotype, but they're not exactly a majority group. 

As far as taxes go, roughly 65% of illegal immigrants pay taxes.  Granted, its not enough offset the overall impact illegal immigrants will have on a local economy in terms of competition for work, living space, etc, but they're not -not- paying taxes either, for the most part.

Yeah, Illegal immigrantion is kinda of an issue, but its not as bad as a lot of news groups will make it out to be. 

Whoo~ Go studying sociology and Criminal justice!

 

[So fist]

M_artist most illegals caught committing crimes are usually simply extradited back to their home countries and not held.  The process is fairly quick when the feds already know what is on their plate and have no doubts about citizen status.  The ones we generally keep are ones with murder raps and other crimes not easily forgotten.  Numbers on the rest are hard to guage since, well, Illegals don't often reach out to people trying to count them.  The best you'll get are estimates which will vary from agenda to agenda.

The vast majority aren't criminals.  But that issue is part of border security as well as criminal justice.

 

[m_artist200]

Yeah, they're supposed to be deported via expedited removal.  Usually its fast, but you've gotta put them -somewhere- while your filling out the paperwork.  More often than not, they'll be thrown in a local jail for holding until the paperwork is filled out. 
..
Blerh.  I said federal prision up there, didn't I?  Oops.  Not federal prisions.  Scratch that.

 

[Samboy]

Or you could just become one nation and get it over with already. :P

I know nothing about illegal immigration. I lived in NZ till I was eight, then came to Australia. Unless those poor African/Islander families can afford boats, there won't be much happening.

 

[___]

The evidence for whether illegal immigration causes an increase in crime (besides the crime of being an illegal immigrant of course), violence, narcotics availability, etc. is not as solid as most people would like to believe.  Forgive me for not having the exact facts available here but I was reading a couple weeks ago that an increase in illegal immigrants in areas of Los Angeles actually corresponded with a sharp decrease in crime in those same areas.  That's not all there is to support an alternative theory of course, that's just off the top of my head.

In any case any behavior which you criminalize is going to drive all individuals determined to engage in that behavior into the criminal underground.  The effect was easily observed during prohibition; obviously, not everyone was ready to give up alcohol and consuming alcohol went from a relatively safe, above the board activity where the product and its useage was regulated to a completely unregulated disaster and a huge source of profit for organized crime.

Ultimately there are a lot of people who really believe in our country and don't happen to live in it; if the choice is between living in destitution and poverty in their own country and breaking our laws in order to have a shot in ours, they will break laws.  If they have to break laws to get what they want, they will have to get involved with career criminals who can help them accomplish their goals; those are the people we need to be worried about, not the immigrants. 

The immigrants are breaking law by necessity, not a desire to be criminal - the fact that they come here and "take our jobs" aught to be evidence to even the common person that they want to participate in our lifestyle and benefit from it, not undermine it.  If you take away the need for criminal means to an end, you take away the need for criminals.

The only question at that point is whether the end is bad enough on its own to risk criminalizing it; in the case of alcohol, we decided it wasn't.  In the case of immigration, we live in a gigantic country rich in natural resources, with a vibrant economy (even in the wake of recessions and depressions it's still stronger and more wealthy than 3/4ths of the world).  Adding more people when there is plenty of space for them is a positive thing, not a negative one; we are not struggling with overpopulation.  Most other developed countries are dealing favorably with populations a hundred times higher than ours in relation to their landmass and available resources.

More young, hard-working consumers who are willing to get their hands dirty and work their way up the ladder is exactly what we need right now, we should be begging them to move here to offset the aging baby-boomers before we break our backs trying to care for them and keep our economy alive when they're still consuming but not producing.

 

[kaze950]

I'm against illegal immigration because it is illegal. I think mass deportation isn't the answer, but rather some sort of amnesty program. Not complete amnesty, but something like they pay a fee and become registered citizens through a legal process. But, whatever. I just  hate it when people say stuff like, "They haven't committed any crimes" or "Our country was built on immigrants." First of all, coming into the country is the crime itself. Secondly, immigrants != illegal immigrants.

 

[___]

Just because something is a crime doesn't mean it's wrong though, that's the point you're missing.  Law makers get things wrong all the time, that's why our legal system allows for change.  That's why things like civil disobedience can have positive influences on society; essentially illegal immigration and the support of illegal immigrants is a form of civil disobedience.

The question of any criminal law should be: is the country better off with or without this law; that is, does the consequence of the presence of the law cause more harm than the act it seeks to prevent.  Obviously no argument about the validity of a law can be based on the existence of the law, that's a circular argument - "it's illegal therefore its wrong and its wrong therefore its illegal."

When you think about any act or behavior you want to make a crime, you have to think about the consequences of that act or behavior outside the scope of its criminality.  It's easy to understand why murder is against the law - the harm and danger to individuals and society as a whole is clear cut.  If you forget that it's criminal for a moment it's easy to form an argument about why it's wrong.  Other things that have been illegal or are illegal right now, the justification is much more tenuous; to take something completely frivolous by today's standards for instance, it was against the law in many places for women to wear pants.  Many women simply chose to disobey the law and wear pants anyway; if you had told them "wearing pants is wrong!" and they had asked, "why?" and you had said "because it's illegal!" they'd have every right to laugh in your face.  In some places the legislative body got rid of the law, in other places women were taken to court for wearing pants (lulz) and the judge found the law unconstitutional or otherwise invalid, so it was taken off the books.  That's how legal reform happens.

Obviously immigration is a much more complex issue, but you can't begin to discuss the validity of immigration laws, or any other law, if you think a law validates itself and a criminal act is invalid simply because there's a law against it.

As far as your statement about our country being built on legal immigrants, I hardly think the preexisting population invited us over here; immigration laws in our country didn't exist for a large part of its history so the concept wasn't valid, but I hardly think if we had immigration laws it would have had a positive effect, and that's how you pose a historical argument against it.  When someone says our country was built on immigration, the implied argument is that if we had not allowed that immigration in the past our country would not have been as strong as it is now.

 

[kaze950]

@Nphyx

I realize that, and I don't think that just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong. However, I am against illegal immigrants because their actions are illegal, regardless of them being right or wrong. For example, I am against most drugs being illegal. However, while they are illegal, I wouldn't do them (Not that I have a desire to anyway) because I like to respect the law. However, I will admit the law can be changed, and much of it needs to be changed.

And I was referring to all the immigration taking place in the 18-1900s, not the initial immigration before this country existed. And yes, immigrants were helpful to our country. I'm not for mass deportation, as I believe some illegal immigrants do help this country greatly. However, like I said before, sneaking in through the border and coming to the country illegally is a completely different thing than coming here with registered papers through new york city or even coming here by boat before this country existed. I just get mad when people say "Aren't we all the children of immigrants?" when they're completely different issues. Especially since I know that my ancestors came into this country legally.

To me, if you disagree with a law, don't disregard, but fight to change it. If these people love America so much that they want to join us, they should do it the legal way. Disregarding the laws of a country you want to join, in my opinion, pretty much contradicts their so called "love" of America.