Il/legal Immigration

[rmxp_dev]

This is such a tired topic.

According to this study: Immigration lowers Crime Rates.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... 61524.aspx


While countries have a right to control Immigration because it is an issue of National Security, some countries such as USA, and Canada are different. IMHO.

America is a country founded by Immigration. It is also a country, I believe, that NEEDS immigration for dynamism and continued development. Most of the nation's top scientists and researchers for example, are Asian Immigrants. Bill Gates continually argues for increased Visas for tech workers.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/5799.html

So the argument can be made that Legal Immigration is not only a good thing for the USA, but also needed.


Illegal Immigration is an entirely different topic, and should be separated from Legal Immigration.

 

[loam]

This is such a tired topic.

Hey that's great. Now that you've settled the immigration debate, you've got the free time to go back and actually read those links you posted. :crazy:

 

[Dissonance]

This is such a tired topic.

According to this study: Immigration lowers Crime Rates.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... 61524.aspx


While countries have a right to control Immigration because it is an issue of National Security, some countries such as USA, and Canada are different. IMHO.

America is a country founded by Immigration. It is also a country, I believe, that NEEDS immigration for dynamism and continued development. Most of the nation's top scientists and researchers for example, are Asian Immigrants. Bill Gates continually argues for increased Visas for tech workers.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/5799.html

So the argument can be made that Legal Immigration is not only a good thing for the USA, but also needed.


Illegal Immigration is an entirely different topic, and should be separated from Legal Immigration.

Keep in mind that Canada and the USA was primarily founded on EUROPEAN immigration, and we certainly don't need to continue to bring more people in - we're obviously capable of having babies ourselves.

 

[Legendary]

And that they were founded on immigrants that want to become American and merge their children into the nation. Many immigrants nowadays don't wish that, and I'm sorry, I LIKE cultural diversity, but you have to have common ground or diversity becomes hatred. America was called a Melting Pot because the good things of each new culture were supposed to be mixed into what was already there.

Now we seem more like a salad, in all honesty.

 

[rmxp_dev]

And that they were founded on immigrants that want to become American and merge their children into the nation. Many immigrants nowadays don't wish that, and I'm sorry, I LIKE cultural diversity, but you have to have common ground or diversity becomes hatred. America was called a Melting Pot because the good things of each new culture were supposed to be mixed into what was already there.

Now we seem more like a salad, in all honesty.

America never really was a Melting Pot except amongst European Immigrants. Are you telling me that Black Americans were included in the Melting Pot? What about the Native Indians? Chinese immigrants in the 1800s?

Nothing's really changed today. You have Irish Immigrants who just entered the country and can easily blend in some NYC bar with the thick Irish accent because they are Caucasian. However, Legal Immigrants of other ethnicity who wants to blend in, are still considered foreigners. And their children, who are completely assimilated, still face exclusion if they are not WHite.

You can argue that well, America is a White nation so tough. And you can also argue that early on, Irish and other Caucasian Immigrants also faced exclusion. True, but eventually, their children were accepted, and joined in the happy Caucasian Melting Pot.

But let's not pretend that America was once the Great Melting Pot where everyone who came wanted to be Americans. You're only talking specifically about Caucasian Immigrants. Black and other races were not, and in many cases, still not really accepted.

And I realize that this may upset a few Caucasian people here because what I'm really stating is a basic truth: America is a White Centric, mild to heavy ( depending on which part of the country ) racist country. I'm not arguing against this, or blaming anyone. I am merely stating a basic truth. America after all, has a European history ( after all the Native Indians were slaughtered etc ), and if any group deserves first status, it is the Europeans.

What I find really funny however and this is the part that sort of leaves me puzzled, is to see and hear Caucasians up in arms about many things, complaining yet totally ignorant of the massive White privilege they enjoy that most of us Minorities cannot touch.

 

[rmxp_dev]

This is such a tired topic.

According to this study: Immigration lowers Crime Rates.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... 61524.aspx


While countries have a right to control Immigration because it is an issue of National Security, some countries such as USA, and Canada are different. IMHO.

America is a country founded by Immigration. It is also a country, I believe, that NEEDS immigration for dynamism and continued development. Most of the nation's top scientists and researchers for example, are Asian Immigrants. Bill Gates continually argues for increased Visas for tech workers.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/5799.html

So the argument can be made that Legal Immigration is not only a good thing for the USA, but also needed.


Illegal Immigration is an entirely different topic, and should be separated from Legal Immigration.

Keep in mind that Canada and the USA was primarily founded on EUROPEAN immigration, and we certainly don't need to continue to bring more people in - we're obviously capable of having babies ourselves.

I didn't really go into what kind of ethnicities should be allowed to immigrate. I merely argued that Immigration has had and continues to have a positive impact on America. And as a nation that was built on Immigration, it should continue to welcome Immigrants who WANT to still work hard for the American Dream. Their work ethic helps continue the dynamism and energy that contributes heavily to America's prosperity.

Hey that's great. Now that you've settled the immigration debate, you've got the free time to go back and actually read those links you posted.

What are you talking about? I think those links support my statements.


I hate to sound like a cold hearted cynic, but here's a small example of what I'm talking about.


http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ ... /303240037


According to this article, 10% of Ohians are on FOOD STAMPs. When I read that, that floored me. I do not know what % of Immigrants in Ohio receive Food Stamps, but I'm sure most of the people who are receiving Food Stamps / Welfare are born and bred Americans.

This is the problem plaguing America today. I personally would never accept Food Stamps, or Welfare. I have enough of a work ethic, and personal responsibility that I would never do so. And though I do not have statistics to back me up, I doubt hard working Immigrants come to the USA to receive food stamps / welfare.

I think Immigrants and children of Immigrants have a high work ethic, and contribute heavily to the USA's economy.  I know my parents did. They never received welfare or even thought about it.

Ok I realize I sound like I'm on a soapbox. I'll get off, and I do apologize if I offended anyone.

 

[loam]

Oh, well, you know. They support your point well enough, they just don't support what you said.

And don't apologize for offending people in this thread and then call someone "clueless" in another one five seconds later; you look insincere. Not that your posts in here were offensive, compared to the responses anyway. Lol, melting pot.

 

[Legendary]

Actually, black culture heavily influenced America (*cough* JAZZ *cough*), and now that we've become more egalitarian, the Far East is having heavy influences on America as well. It was hardly a "melting pot" of all cultures, but the framework was there for expansion. I never said the reality was perfect, I merely pointed out how things worked amongst the equals of the time.

Further, the fact that minorities aren't fully accepted into American society is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm complaining about. Instead of being PEOPLE, they become groups, cut off from America, which means that as they spread out, they become more isolated from America and turn against it, weakening the nation.

I'm stating that the people SHOULD come together, and the fact that we're not is the major problem. What, exactly, is your disagreement with that?

 

[___]

The whole basic problem with this debate is that simple, ignorant people think that the economic trouble in our country can be summed up in simple phrases like, "it's the damn mexicans took all our jobs!"  This is the same redneck-assed notion that has been used throughout the entire life of this country to justify prejudice and hatred toward whatever the newest group of immigrants happens to be. 

To claim that this country was founded by Europeans and belongs to their descendants is so horribly historically ignorant it could only come from the kind of self-assured morons this country's political machine was built to breed.  I hate to break it to you, Dissonance and others like you, but long before we were hating on latinos or blacks or some other ethnic group we were very happy to treat "fellow europeans" the same exact way (actually and for obvious reasons black people don't even belong inside an immigration argument). 

The Irish, Italians, Dutch, Germans and a half dozen other groups all got their turns.  They all came here because something was wrong with their stupid country and your redneck-assed semi-retarded political predecessors hated them for the same reason, namely, "they took our joooobs! waaah!"  The plain fact of the matter is the cheap labor and horrendous conditions they tolerated that many native, upstanding "real Americans" benefited from powered the industrial revolution that set the stage for turning this country into an economic powerhouse in the first place.  If we had followed a closed-borders policy back then we'd probably be 50 years behind where we are now.  Similarly if we just rounded up all the "damn job-stealing beaners" you and your people love to hate on so much this country would grind to an economic halt and you'd probably starve.

Besides that blaming immigrants, legal or otherwise, on any of our economic troubles is just ludicrously ignorant on so many levels.  You think they had anything to do with the oil crunch in the 70s, the stock market trouble of the 80s, the dot com burst of the early 2000s, Enron, or the sub prime mortgage crisis that's sending our economy into freefall right now?  No, all those things were caused essentially by well-established born-and-raised U.S. citizens trying to rape the people below them of as many resources as possible.  Enron alone, and it was a relatively little fuck-over, cost people more money in a year than paying welfare to illegal immigrants had the entire decade.  In California, for instance, power bills went up around 50-100% thanks to those assholes, that's way, way more (about 10x more for me) than we were paying in taxes monthly for welfare services.

Immigration has never, ever caused significant economic trouble in this country's entire history.  All our economic troubles are caused by the people ignorant lower-middle classers that hate immigrants so much wish they were, the people they consider models of success and productivity, the kinds of people they contrast supposedly lazy poor people with.  No, Dissonance, it is you and the economic philosophy you so confidently ascribe to that is fucking this country over and over and over again (and Diss, I'm sorry to target you so harshly, I really am, but you have to admit your arguments in the Symposium in general are sort of the model of the nihilistic closet neo-fascist philosophy that sits at the root of these ideas).

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I watched something on TV that I'd like to point out.
It goes along with Nphyx's statement earlier.  Not the general point, but possibly an obscure one someone might've missed.

People generally look at the US as a historical nation of Whites hating on coloured.  Be that the skin colour of black, brown, yellow, red - whatever, go into your box of Crayola and pick a color.  Good, is it white?  If not, and if there's a group of people generally perceived as being of that colour - guess what?  We hated them.

Problem there.  While it's true, if there were a purple people - we'd have hated them, we also hated the white man.  We tried to crush the Irish.  The Italians were hated.  The Polish were hated.  Hell there are still people to this day who hate Irish, Italians, or Poles.  Personally, I'm kind of bigoted towards Italians.

What with their cheese on everything, acidic tomatoes, and their ability to put a painting of Jesus hanging from a cross in every room - and while it's not fair I'm dealing with the average thought of the nation on that as a goof.

"Jesus hanging from a cross in every room".  See that?
THAT is part of the reason peoples hated Italians.  It was a religious thing, but - and here's the fun... people don't care to leave religious things to religious matters, hence you get a backlash against immigration.  And it happened.

Why'd we hate the Italians?  They were Catholic.  Why'd we hate the Irish - the majority were *gasp* Catholic.  Why'd we hate the Jews?  Well no, they weren't Catholic - but they were just as bad.  We were a Protestant nation.

We wanted to stay a Protestant nation.  And for anyone scoffing at this with "freedom of religion" just remember we also freed the slaves - and for the first few hundred years it didn't really seem to help none did it?

Immigration is all about bigotry.
Safety is a false god.  All people want is to be around those who make them comfortable.  I'm not saying, look in the mirror - what you see is what you want to be around.  I'm white, tall, and yes I'm a hairy guy.  Does that mean I'm most comfortable around tall white hairy people?  No, not at all.  I get uncomfortable if I'm in a room of people of one color or stereotype - no matter what it is.  All white guys makes me just as nervous as all black guys.  Only because I'm the alien no matter what.

People don't want outsiders, so we hate immigration.  We create stigmas about it.  Job loss.  Economic struggle.  Forget we get our oranges so cheap because of the guy on the highway selling them a for anywhere between $1 - 5$ a bag.
We scare ourselves.

They aren't our religion.  They don't look like us.  They don't act like us.  They listen to different music.  They were the wrong cologne.  Whatever the case is, they aren't us and we hate them for it.
That's the biggest issue with immigration.
[/rant]

 

[rmxp_dev]

European Immigrants from countries like Ireland, and Italy faced exclusion but the hatred they encountered wasn't racial but more cultural. And eventually, their children assimiliated as true Americans. That's a bit different from what minorities face.

I'm not going to continue to harp on "racism" because to me, that is a cop-out. As an Asian male, sure, I recognize that I face greater disadvantages than say, a White male American. That is reality.

But whether you are White male, or a "minority", the great thing about this country is that you still have an opportunity to make something of your life. The biggest factor in your success and personal happiness is YOU. You can't blame anyone else. Not Immigration. Not Global Trade.

This is why arguments against Legal Immigration are bogus. ( Illegal Immigration is a different issue. ) It's like a minority blaming racism for his problems. If you are a White male, you have the greatest competitive advantages to succeed in this country. But success in life isn't handed down, unless you come from a rich family. It's got to be earned. If I was born White, that "status", that White Privilige is worth more than a Million Dollars. Id say if I could theoretically obtain "White Privilege" for a measly Million, I could turn that to 50 Million, maybe more.

Does Global Trade, and Legal Immigration make Life more competitive? Absolutely. But that's life.

Why for instance, is it so hard to find Skilled workers in the USA?

Look at this article

AT&T CEO says hard to find skilled U.S. workers
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080327/tc_ ... rkforce_dc

I don't know if his claims are true or not, but I believe they are true. Why can't Americans develop the skills that are in demand? I'm having a hard time understanding why an American who has access to the best Universities, best educations, can't compete with some guy from India.

Furthermore, why do Americans rely on a JOB? If Ohians are having a tough time economically, then MOVE to another area of the country that is prosperous. Why stay in some economically depressed town in Ohio?

Jobs wil come and go. You can't rely on Jobs. If you really want to get anywhere in life, you HAVE to create your own business. I do not rely on jobs anymore. I've worked as an employee, and I understand why Jobs exist. Because frankly, the time I spend in a JOB is waaay more valuable than whatever paycheck I received. With that time, I could've done better, earned better, and have better job security.


Luckily, although in this country, different races might not be equal, it is still the individual that has greater influence on our personal trek in Life. Being White is advantageous, but it is not the defining criteria to success.

Immigrants of all nationalties come here, and some of them succeed. They provide Energy, and dynamism that is needed to make this country continue to be prosperous.

Anyone who blames a race, or immigrants, or global trade, for their problems, is in my opinion, making excuses.

 

[___]

The reasons for hating Irish in particular were very, very similar to the reasons people hate latinos today.  Not only the religious angle, but because Ireland was experiencing horrible famine and poverty.  The Irish were coming to this country trying to find a way to survive, make a living, and get a piece of American prosperity.  They didn't want to integrate their culture or give up their way of life, they just wanted to practice it in a prosperous and fertile country, much like immigrants that came to America before and after them.  Many of them came over illegally, and many of them had became indebted to and burdened by organized crime when they arrived here, and they dealt with it in hopes that they were securing a better future for their children.

The complaints then were very similar to the complaints now against latinos (sorry if that sounds all PC, btw, it's just most appropriate); they're hungry and dirty and worst yet poor and coming over here to sap our country of its financial livelihood the way they sapped their own, as if somehow poverty and famine was a disease they carried genetically that they could spread to any country they arrived in.  When you state the idea outright like that it's ridiculous of course, but that pretty much sums up the beliefs of people who are afraid of minorities, that they'll somehow infect our own families with poverty or seduce and breed with our children and change the color of their skin or hair or make them change their religion, the sinister, conniving bastards that they are.

Ultimately though the Irish immigrants suffered through abuse, violence, isolation, rape and murder perpetrated on them by established Americans and rose through it, contributing in a huge way to the culture and prosperity of our country.  I see no reason to believe that this pattern will not continue to repeat itself with every other new immigrant group that comes here.

 

[rmxp_dev]

I'm stating that the people SHOULD come together, and the fact that we're not is the major problem. What, exactly, is your disagreement with that?

People will not come together. In 500 years, unless Americans have all Interracially married, and procreated with each other, there will still be deep divisions divided along racial Lines.

It's human nature to be racist. Everyone is racist in that they are proud of their race, and background. You can be extremely proud of your race. If you're white, be damn proud of being Caucasian. And the same is true of all ethnicities.

But here is the problem: Just because you're "proud", why hate other races? Why can't people respect other cultures? and other races? Because people are insecure, and afraid.

If people learned to be truly proud, and secure of their race, then people wouldn't be afraid or insecure of different races. I am not racist but I am proud of my race. In myself, I am secure, and therefore, do not fear people different from me. Nor do I judge others.

If everyone adopted this attitude, this country and world would be a much much better place.

 

[rmxp_dev]

@rmxp_dev:  honestly, we should do another thread on this if we really want to debate.  But I'd love to see one example anywhere in my entire fucking life where I got something because I was white.  Or got anything I wouldn't have got if I hadn't been white.  There is NOTHING.  NOTHING.

I got teased, fucked with, shat on, spat on, abused by my peers and my teachers because I was poor, wore raggy clothes, was too smart, was too weird.  I got pulled over by the cops 3 times a month, and any time it was dark, for having long hair and driving a shitty car.  I got passed over for job after job after job for the same reason.

Does it hurt as much to have someone hate you because you're wearing clothes that were handed down from your uncle who wore them a decade ago, or because you like to read books instead of throwing around a football, or because there are more important things in life to you than getting your dick wet, or any other stupid ass reason instead of the stupid ass reason that your skin is different, or because you like boys instead of girls?  I don't know, I never will.  But I can imagine it's not much different.  I can imagine the anger, bitterness and resentment that it took me years to begin to overcome is similar.  Was it my fault my tastes were different, or I couldn't afford things that would make me not look like a "dirtbag"?  Maybe to a greater extent than it's someone's fault for being asian or gay or something, but my personality is something I'm proud of and I wouldn't change it any more than you'd change your race.

I didn't say being White was the sole criteria in one's success in life. Race is only one part of the equation. But White privilege exists.

What you've just written has NOTHING to do with White privilege.

Why have you had such a tough time? I have no idea. Maybe it's your circumstances in which you had no control over such as family. But maybe it's also you. Maybe you are just a mediocre person. I don't know. But you STILL have white privilege, even though you fail to see that.

If I were to review your life in detail, I'm sure I could point out instances where White privilege helped you.

Maybe, as a White kid, you were teased for being a dork. Other white kids teased you mercilessly. Girls laughed in your face. But maybe, if you were a Black kid, instead of being teased, you'd be dead today. Maybe the White kids in the neighborhood didn't like to see a Black family move in. And intimidated you, and your family. And one day, on your way home from school, a group of white kids pummeled you to the ground, smashing your skull in until you died.

Compare being Teased with being dead.

Can you see how although your experiences were shitty, maybe, being white was infinitely better than if you were black?

You complain about being teased. Have you ever been called a "gook" before? How about "chink"? How about kids coming up to you, and punching you just for having an epicanthic fold?

Everything you've stated has nothing to do with White privilege. You've made ZERO arguments that support your belief that White privilege doesn't exist.

Just because you were teased, does not mean White privilege does not exist.

I split this to http://www.rmxp.org/forums/index.php?topic=44023.0, I'll leave this post up but if you can move it I'd appreciate it :D  I can't move just one post to another thread afaik.

 

[loam]

Of course racism can occur within (I can't think of an accurate way to say this) homogenous groups, such as an all caucasian group. Just because most english and irish citizens are caucasians (when is it politically incorrect to call a black person african american? when they're british. /maddox) doesn't mean the english weren't racist towards the irish. An example which illustrates the point even better (though not related to america) is rwanda. If you would still rather call it bigotry on "cultural" differences rather than racism, I guess it's mostly just a matter of semantics. But it would be insensitive and probably wrong.

To take the point a little bit further, think of japanese/chinese tensions. Now, to any japanese or chinese person, those "races" probably don't seem homogenous. But that's kindof the point, to an english or irish person, their "races" aren't homogenous either, and a white person could tell them apart as easily (meaning, they think they can) as an asian person could tell apart a chinese person from a philipino (people always get this wrong about some of the workers at my college, I don't get it), and so when people said the english were descended from angels, and the irish were descended from apes (well, it was probably mostly the english saying it), well, that's strikingly similar to racism.

I may be wrong.

On the other side of things, you have to be kidding yourself if you think the racism (or whatever you want to call it) that the irish face/d goes anywhere to the extent or duration of the racism that blacks face/d (talking about north america again, to be clear). etc, etc.

(sorry if this was too off topic. I left it in this one because it seemed the racism bit was still under discussion within the topic of immigration)

 

[___]

@loam, others, concerning white privilege:  I split it, you can find it at:  http://www.rmxp.org/forums/index.php?to ... 3.0.  I guess I should have posted a bigger notice, sorry   So here:

The Debate on White Privilege has been split from this thread to the above link, please do not post any further discussion on that topic here.  Thank you : )

 

[Incognitus]

People will not come together. In 500 years, unless Americans have all Interracially married, and procreated with each other, there will still be deep divisions divided along racial Lines.

This may or may not be the right place to segue into this sort of discussion, but do you think that, in 500 years time, America might have moved towards a more racism antagonism along the North/South divide, or do you think new divisions will emerge across the continent?

 

[___]

Personally I believe the only people that will be racist in 50 years time will be the people constantly on the lookout for racism.

 

[skirtboy]

Of course immigration is a bad thing. Who needs atomic power, alternating current, or computers?

/sarcasm

 

[Demodronik]

I believe the border should be turned into a reality/game show called "Who Wants to be an Illegal Immigrant?" and the winners get to make it past the border.

But really if employers had to pay illegal immigrants a living wage then there would be no advantage to hiring an illegal immigrant. Not that that really matters because illegal immigrants don't actually steal jobs from Americans.