Il/legal Immigration

[sixtyandaquarter]

Illegal. God. Damn. Immigration.
I'm so tired of this topic I'm actually opening up a thread to discuss it.  That's how tired of this god damn discussion I am, I'm going to actively go and seek it out.  We don't have a real or active immigration debate, anyway really, so what's the harm.

Whether it be the US, England, North Korea, or Cuba immigration is a big scary issue that brings frightened and/or worried faces - like this D: - to people's mugs.  It's such a huge thing in many peoples minds.  Be it trying to stop people from becoming illegal immigrants by entering a country illegally - or staying illegally, or stopping people from escaping North Korea and becoming an illegal in some other country.  What have you.

So, let's have our little debate shall we?
Be it a laughable 700 mile wall across the Mexican border or the equally laughable drivers license and library cards for illegals. Hey, how bout job security, the fact that unemployment from legal citizens in the US has been a stable of about 5% for, Christ, decades regardless of how many illegal citizens come across the border.  Discuss the the drug dealers, the supposed breeders sucking up government cheese, or even the threat or terrorism if you want to.

Basic.  Is illegal immigration a social pandemic?  Must it be stopped?  Controlled?  Destroyed?  Is it something to fear?  Why?  Why not?  Citizenship measures, etc.

As usual I've kind of made a bit of my own standing on this issue already, but I'll refrain from posting anything meant to argue for or against any sides till the ball rolls a bit.  I just prefer it that way.

So, if you'd like to partake, please discuss.

 

[shiroun]

I don't have much to say - however it is a good discussion.

Honestly, immigration is something that should be allowed.. if we let more people in, they won't have to be illegal -_-

 

[Trek22]

I'll get back to this when I have had some sleep, but its crap like the above post that gets me heated on this topic.  I'll be glad to attack this one. >:}

 

[shiroun]

Trek, I'm elaborating now. My computer was going funky from a subliminal program I was running... Am running... nevermind.

Anyway:

Not everyone who comes to America deserves to be here. Hell, we have neo-nazi's here, one was an Embassator (spelt wrong, whatever), who got kicked out. People should be allowed to come to the US, but if they are deathly ill or may have a disease that is dangerous to the citizens of the country in question... they shouldn't be allowed to come.

Places like NKo, or Asia should have quotas... I agree with that, because otherwise economic values go DOWN.

Glad I got ya heated up :D

 

[Bestone]

Im canadian, and we have such a small population up here *what? gettin close to 35mil now for all of canada* that immigration, legal or not, really affects us. Now I have no problem with immigration, dont get me wrong (and im going to lump both legal or not into this little rant). I mean my ancestors immigrated here, we have plenty of resources here to share. But i do have a problem with immigration when there are starving people on our streets, when there are people that are unemployed, and when its too expensive to go to any sort of schooling to get a job that gets you anywhere. In canada its cheaper to fly to other countries, get your doctorate in less years, come back and re-certify. That I have a problem with.

You got to take care of your own, if everything is good, low (near nil) unemployment rate, the people here are given the chance they need to get a good career (cheap schooling instead of having to import specialists), and there is enough food and room to go around, then why the hell not?

on the subject of legal/illegal, well of course people should be forced to follow the legal way in, i mean, breaking the laws of a country on your first step into it, is not a good start.

Of course, it should be circumstantial, as it is, refugee claims and what not.

 

[Venetia]

Honestly, immigration is something that should be allowed.. if we let more people in, they won't have to be illegal -_-

Not everyone who comes to America deserves to be here. Hell, we have neo-nazi's here, one was an Embassator (spelt wrong, whatever), who got kicked out. People should be allowed to come to the US, but if they are deathly ill or may have a disease that is dangerous to the citizens of the country in question... they shouldn't be allowed to come.

Places like NKo, or Asia should have quotas... I agree with that, because otherwise economic values go DOWN.

Sounds like a kiddie answer. It's okay Shiroun, we were all kids at some point and thought the same thing.

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You cannot allow anyone and everyone into your country because of governement benefits. They vary from country to country, but basically they are comprised of: law enforcement (incl. prisons and gvm'tal affairs), welfare/subsidies for the poor (incl. food), medical care, education, and transportation.

When people are citizens, they are taxable. When a person comes into the country illegally, they are not taxed. That means they're getting all the above for free, at the expense of the citizens. That is not okay.

Then why not just make it easy for people to become citizens?

While that makes sense on a basic level, you have to consider a few points.

      First, many immigrants are happy with being paid under the counter and avoiding paying taxes, so they wouldn't register anyway. This is not the majority, but it's a large percentage.
      Second, think of the country's resources as a pie. The more times you divide the pie, the less everyone gets. So the country has to be certain that the immigrant will be a contributing member to society so they don't have to divide the pie so thin. In some countries, it's easier than others. America in particular has a very rigorous nationalization program, but the hardest part of it (so I've heard) is learning the basics of the English language. I've known many immigrants who enter legally and it's not a big deal to learn some fundamentals of American history and the way we do things, it's just harder for some than it is for others.

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Why is this such a hot-button issue in America?

Well, America is one of the most powerful nations in the world. Coincidentally, we're connected to a 3rd-world nation with only a desert as a boundary. The Mexican people don't want to suffer in poverty, so they immigrate to America. The problem is that they make little/no effort to learn English or anything necessary to pass the nationalization tests. There are multiple reasons for this, perhaps the largest reason: money. It costs money to learn English and American history. Money they don't have.

What these people are unfortunately unaware of, is that there are many programs, especially in California and Texas, which are designed to help immigrants naturalize for free, as long as they work while studying.

I believe adding funding to these programs, in addition to increasing their advertisement, would be the best course of action against illegal immigration into the southern U.S.

-------

Why don't we care so much about immigrating Canadians?

They're not as big of a problem. It's not because they're predominantly white, it's because Canada is not a 3rd-world nation, and the people migrating over are generally skilled workers who already know or have a grasp on the English language, and who can contribute to society. Also, their percentage rates of naturalizing are far greater, and our government has more agreements set up with their country in the first place (since they have more to offer).

------------

Why can't we kick out people who don't belong in America and then accept "good" immigrants, except the terminally ill ones?

That's impossible to determine and do. No country would accept our rejects, and we cannot determine who a "good" immigrant is. Furthermore, discriminating immigrants based on health status is immoral and disgusting. It's better to say none can come in than say "you, you, and you are okay, but he's sick and will just be a boil on medicare's teat, so leave him to die."

------------

I have no opinions on immigrants in other countries, since I don't know much about their naturalization issues, but I can only assume they're fairly similar in nature.

 

[vpcdmd]

I'm sorry Venetia, but I'm afraid you are wrong on some parts.

When people are citizens, they are taxable. When a person comes into the country illegally, they are not taxed.

This is a huge misconception, and it appears that only illegal immigrants are aware of it as I've yet to see a legal citizen say that illegals are indeed taxed.

I myself immigrated legally to the US and currently have a SSN which I got by using my work permit, however I am aware of a document that illegals use to file income taxes and receive tax returns as well.  It is called W7

And here's the form that is used to filing it:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw7.pdf

Now take a look at "Reason you are submitting form" option 'b' "Nonresident alien filing a U.S. tax return"
Then section 6d "Identification document(s) submitted (see instructions)" Driver License is posted in there.  And we all know that until recently illegals could get a driver license.

Take a look at the second page under "Purpose of Form" it says the following

"An ITIN is a nine-digit number issued by the U.S.
Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to individuals who are required for U.S.
tax purposes to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who
do not have, and are not eligible to obtain, a social security number
(SSN)."

Sounds simple right, basically you can file taxes with a W7 only if you don't have a SSN, but who can get a SSN?  Why it's listed a few lines below.

"SSNs. Do not complete Form W-7 if you have an SSN or you are
eligible to obtain an SSN. You are eligible for an SSN if you are a
U.S. citizen or if you have been admitted by the United States for
permanent residence or U.S. employment."

So, if the US says it's ok for you to work, aka, gives you a work permit, you can get a SSN, but if they say you can't work, you can file for a W7, give that number to your employer and file taxes with it using a W2 just like every other legal worker ...

In other words, the government allows for illegal immigrants to work, and therefore be taxed.  All they have to do is make sure to spend a small percentage of that into welfare programs like medicaid, and medicare.  Illegals do not get those benefit "free of charge"

The problem is that they make little/no effort to learn English or anything necessary to pass the nationalization tests.

I agree with you in that MANY Mexicans do not even try to learn English, not ony that but they butcher the Spanish language until it's no longer recognizable; however I believe you have never seen a nationalization test nor know of the requirements needed to take it.

As you can probably see from my post I have a very good grasp on the English Language, I took AP English both in 11th, and 12th grade, as well as American History AP on 11th.  I got A's and B's on the classes and no lower than a 4 on the AP exam at the end of the year.  Yet with all that preparation I failed my nationalization test miserably.  I have no doubt that if that test was given to every legal American Citizen, less than 10% would actually pass it.

It's better to say none can come in than say "you, you, and you are okay, but he's sick and will just be a boil on medicare's teat, so leave him to die."

I don't know about people who are terminally ill, but my grandmother's visitor visa application was denied twice in a row due to her medical condition.  (We think it's because of that, because my grandfather who is five years older than her and is perfectly healthy was given his visa on his first time, even though they applied together.)

 

[So fist]

Venetia, Mexico isn't America, but its hardly the third world either. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newly_indu ... ed_country

Its in the upper echelon of developing countries, basically an economic step below the first world.  The third world is stuff like the central African nations that are IMF welfare states.  They are less economically successful than us but not as dramatic as it was made to sound.  Remember not everyone crossing that border is Mexican either, and not all move purely because of economics.  Family is certainly another strong draw.

The other issue about curbing illegal immigration that gets little discussion is the free trade issue.  People like to bandy about this idea that sealing the borders is a simple common sense solution, as if all of their food, clothes, and electronics were made by elves in the backrooms of Sears and Roebuck.  Now to my point.  Sealing the borders means sealing trade.  If you're going to take a policy of hassling every person who crosses you are slowing down trade and as the axiom goes, "time is money."  It is a dilemma with no easy way around.  You could have preferred trading status for shippers that get a pass on the lines, but it wouldn't be long until a border runner scams their way into that fast lane.  Then there is the issue for how you pay for such draconian measures.  You'll need guards, cameras, electronic fences, alarms, maintenance, health coverage, retirement, and whole bunch of other stuff I can't think of.  Then of course my rice is an extra dollar more expensive because shipping it across the border is more expensive these days.

I'm sure there could be more security, but I think a few immigration critics (the Tom Tancredo's of the world) need to make those expectations more reasonable.  A round up and mass deportation would be expensive not to mention ugly. 

Language is definitely the major barrier issue as it affects employment options and education options.  That's a no brainer.  Language acquisition for adults is no simple task though.

 

[Dissonance]

Too many immigrants tanks a developed nation.  ESPECIALLY when they don't assimilate.

Yes, the current accepted deal concerning immigration is cultural diversity.  What we all hope, however, is that in a generation or two any hint of their old culture that their granddad brought with them has been completely replaced with ours.  And when we begin to have either too many immigrants at once, or family lines that are refusing to adapt, we get a country that has multiple cultures clashing in the public sphere.

That's why there's tons of bullshit concerning muslim women wanting to leave the hijab on while taking a photo for ID.

Uncontrolled immigration is bad for a country.  Period.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

if they are deathly ill or may have a disease that is dangerous to the citizens of the country in question... they shouldn't be allowed to come.

Could the same be said for people going to Canada, Brazil, China, India, and any other country where Americans go to cure some of their most terminal - and even contagious diseases?

A lot of people, more then you'd think, cross over the US border by plane, train, automobile, boat, etc to get to another country to be healed.
If we have a "super cure" for a disease, no matter how laughable it may seem or truly is, should we not be sharing that cure to the world, or those who are sick?

You got to take care of your own, if everything is good, low (near nil) unemployment rate, the people here are given the chance they need to get a good career (cheap schooling instead of having to import specialists), and there is enough food and room to go around, then why the hell not?

5.8%.
That's the Canadian Unemployment Rate released Friday March 7th, 2008 at 7 a.m.  It's at a 33 year low.

The fun part is if you look at this nice little chart, unemployment is dropping frantically.
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/ ... 80307b.gif[/img]
As you can see the unemployment rate has dropped about 2%.

I'm not going to sit here and show a purdy chart and claim your wrong.  America has something like a 4.8% as of February.  And that's 4.8% too much, and Canada has us beat on that.
I couldn't find the ratio of citizens to immigrants for Canada, but something 12 to 15 million illegals are in the US at any one time.  5% of the work force is illegal immigrants.  The simple math is 4.8% of those of legal working age who do not have a job, verse 5% of the work force who have a job, who are illegal.  If that 5% was deported, the miracle number would be 0% unemployment, with if we want a joke a need for an extra 2% in workforce.  The odd part is, that 4.8% includes citizens on disability, includes people who are "working" under the table, illegally themselves, it even includes people who have left the country on vocations after losing or quitting a job (not vacations, religious vocations).  Hell this number will raise thanks to the fall and buy over of Bear Sterns.
The actual number is really only 4.2%.  Not much of a difference I know.
Though I agree on circumstantial claims and such, as I understand it Canada has had a large amount of false refugee claims?

And yes that whole sections was more a means to tie in something I found interesting and pretending it had to do with your comment directly.

---
As for making it easier to become a US citizen.
Forget the cost of getting here, forget the cost of learning a language.  It costs $595 for the Application of Naturalization (N-400). This is needed to become a US citizen.  You can apply for citizenship after about 5 years with a green card or being a permanent resident.

The fee to become a permanent resident is being raised.  All numbers here are based on that increase.  It costs, just to become a permanent resident $905.  So to become a permanent resident you must pay $905, and after that you might have to pay an additional $595.  That's a total of $15,000.

There's also a $70 finger printing fee.  Additionally, $2,850 might have to be paid for entrepreneurs.
You have to pass a test on US laws and history that most high schoolers fail.
Most high schoolers raised in the US fail this test.
A coyote, the person who smuggles people into the US, might cost less.  You may have to pay only $10,500, compared to that $15,000.  Your poor and you've got a family, either your bringing them with you or your planning to send money back - which are you going to go for?

Now as Vennie already mentioned, unless you know about or cross into a small view you'll have to either pay that cost or be illegal.  Free and sponsored naturalization does exist, but for far to few.  It's not something most people know.  We have one in NYC, our program is pretty good.  Guess what?  There wasn't one attempt at advertising this by the local government.  Volunteers pass out papers - written in fucking ENGLISH - to immigrants standing outside of Home Depot.

---

As for language....
I love when people say LEARN OUR LANGUAGE OR GET OUT.
I hear it all the time.  Want to know something truly amazing?  Honestly amazing?  There are two countries KNOWN for speaking the English language that do not have an official language.  Those are the United States of America and England.  Both of us don't recognize English as our official language.  There is absolutely no need whatsoever for people to assimilate into our culture by force of learning a language, that is not official.  I live in an overly Latino neighborhood and speak absolutely no Spanish.  Everything on one side of the neighborhood is in either Chinese or in Spanish, and English underneath.  I'm the fucking immigrant here in a sense.

I'm from outside the cultural barrier.  I don't speak a word of what they say.  I don't understand it.  Yet I get by just fine.  There's a store clerk who speaks no English.  None.  Why should he?  I'm one of the few people who visit the store who even speak English natively.  He's a fun guy, we joke.  No clue what we're saying, but we've kind of got this sign language.  "How's your day" fingers point to his head like a gun and he pretends to shoot himself.  He has no clue what I'm saying.  I've walked in and said "Heard your gay?" because it's kind of similar to "How's your day", and got a similar response.
I'm sure he does the same.

There is absolutely no point in enforcing a language.
We don't need it.  We don't even have an official language.  We're set up so if in 500 years the language of choice is Cantonese, well that's what we'll speak.

---

Personally I hear a lot of people say how illegal immigration is horrible for a country.  And I'm not going to say it's not bad.  You won't hear me say that ever.

Our country, the US, is built on immigration.  Yet we've turned against other ethnic groups at every turn.  We had issues with the Chinese that are well documented.  We had issues with the Japanese.  We had issues with Irish, Polish, Italian, any group you can name that isn't somehow connected to England - and we had a problem with it.
Some still do.

What's more American than a hot dog?
The little article of food sold by an immigrant on a street corner.  Made by combining two ethnic foods.
Fuck apple pie.  I'll take my German and English slab of meat on a bread and salute a flag looked on in more awe and slender by adults seeing it for the first time then the guy who owns it and plugged it on his porch in July.

 

[MexicanRifleman]

As an immigrant from Mexico, I disaprove of Illegal immigration, I believe that borders are something that a nation has the right to control.

 

[Venetia]

I myself immigrated legally to the US and currently have a SSN which I got by using my work permit, however I am aware of a document that illegals use to file income taxes and receive tax returns as well.  It is called W7

The problem with your statement there is that you filed to work, therefore you're not the same immigrant I was speaking of. The ones I was speaking of were the ones who immigrate outside normal means (i.e. border hopping) and enter the workforce not through legit ways, but instead get paid under the table. Farm hands, general labor, private maids/cleaners, etc. The ones that the INS do raids on. I realize that people with Visas and Green Cards are taxed, I've known many people from both worlds.

I feel for the people who come into this country illegally and continue to be illegal, because they miss out. They miss out on decent living conditions and fair wages. I'm been to encampments of migratory workers and it's sad, it really is. That's why I believe a stronger push for funded immigration/naturalization programs is the best (and most civil, however perhaps not the cheapest) course of action in combating illegals.

Venetia, Mexico isn't America, but its hardly the third world either. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newly_indu ... ed_country

Its in the upper echelon of developing countries, basically an economic step below the first world.  The third world is stuff like the central African nations that are IMF welfare states.  They are less economically successful than us but not as dramatic as it was made to sound.

The unfortunate thing is that numbers are not indicative of the true state of a country. Mexico City and the other main cities of Mexico are booming, and their industries are thriving, to be sure. However, the rest of Mexico, outside the cities, is not doing so well. No food, poor shelter, dirty water, no plumbing, terrible medical care, corrupt govm't/police ... The extreme (rural) poverty rate is a staggering 27% (however that is down from the 44% of 10 years ago), and the urban poverty rate is 11%. That means almost 40% of the total population is poverty-stricken.

No matter what numerical spin you put on it, travel there sometime. Visit a person's home. I did a few years ago. Sure, they're not as bad off as the poor souls in Africa, but they're not doing great, either. It's easy to understand why they want something better for themselves and their families. Even the poverty-stricken people here have plumbing and electricity and free clinics (for the most part).

I grew up around immigrants and I've known many, and I feel for them, I really do. But what they need is more information on how they can make a better life for themselves so they don't have to be a burden on the country, so they don't have to run from INS, or worry about where to take their sick children because deportation always looms overhead.

I agree with you on everything else, though.

And Sixty's right; immigrating legally is expensive as shit. But if we just advertise the naturalization programs already in place, and drive down the unnecessarily tremendous fees on naturalization documents/procedures, I think it'd be a boon to everyone. (Except, perhaps, the farms -- they thrive on paying their employees less then minimum wage. But they already get ridiculous govm't subsidies.)

 

[Bestone]

I laugh my ass off at the fact you guys are building one big fence, lol

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Don't worry, I laugh my ass off at the fact that we're going to build one big fence, and that we honestly think it'll work too.

 

[Venetia]

Won't it? I mean, people can't climb/penetrate fences ... right?

Hey, we could make it like the Berlin Wall! Just keep building it up and building it up and adding barbed wire and dead bodies and starving attack dogs. I mean, that lasted a good few decades. And weren't those years a hoot?

*adds Benny Hill chase music to videos of people trying to climb the Berlin Wall*

I smell a sitcom!

 

[Ninjitsu]

When something is made illegal = becomes more tempting.
Plus America = Lotsa Jobs in construction.

 

[Justice]

When something is made illegal = becomes more tempting.

So that's why there are illegal immigrants!

But honestly this is too big a topic to tackle fairly, especially with my knowledge on the subject matter being severely limited (and I'm not going to pretend I know what I'm on about).

I do dislike the general bigotry that comes with the concept of asylum seekers in the UK, though, and by dislike I of course mean "hate". Tabloids present immigration and seeking asylum as some sort of unstoppable evil and it breeds such pathetic racism here despite there being obvious upsides and downsides to it.

 

[holloway]

I do dislike the general bigotry that comes with the concept of asylum seekers in the UK, though, and by dislike I of course mean "hate". Tabloids present immigration and seeking asylum as some sort of unstoppable evil and it breeds such pathetic racism here despite there being obvious upsides and downsides to it.

The international laws of seeking asylum are thus that a country should accept those who flee a country in the first country they reach.

You can appreciate that this is pretty fucking hard to legitimately do in the UK. If one ends up in the UK, you're either an awful sailor or not in such serious threat that you need to flee to anywhere, hence the mistrust in the Scum and Daily Stars in their Eyes.

 

[So fist]

Holloway, if you have a legitimate claim to being in danger as a result of political retribution from your home country you'd want to be farther away than the country next door with a porous border.  An island fits the bill.  Trotsky fled all the way to Mexico, but that didn't save him from the KGB.  A nation state can have a long reach when it comes to individuals they'd like killed. It may not be the closest, but it may be among the safest.

Ninjitsu I doubt that people are immigrating illegally because its fun forbidden fruit.  Spend an hour in a shipping container some time then reflect afterwards on what it would be like to do that for a few days.  Human trafficking isn't comparable to, "zomg let's get ans adult to by uz the alcohols!!!!111111111"

 

[Ninjitsu]

I do see the point, but i was thinking along the lines of the Increase of drinking during prohibition(sorry for hijack.)
When something tempting becomes outlawed, its almost taken to another level of desire.
Ill address the actual 'sanctuary' issue later.