Everything you wanted to know about.. RELIGION

[silver wind]

Yes and yes. We don't 'loaf', we spend time with family and friends, eat fancy meals, play games like cards, talk, read, discuss religious issues and the bible(every week Jews read another 'chapter' of the bible, and there are newspapers dedicated to that chapter which we can read and discuss over the dinner table). Then we eat some more :D
Food for Saturday is prepared in Friday.

 

[j4kl1ng3r]

Some say the sky 'is like a tent', and talk about the sky as separating us from 'the water above the sky', which, in my opinion, could be the water on the stars. They also say the 'water above the sky' hang in air, and are separated from the sky in the same way the sea is separated from the sky by air. To me, it sounds like stars in space.
Even where they say the sky was made from water, they say it was changed to something else.
I found no reference to a floating pool of water above the sky. The text may give that idea, but remember water can also be in the shape of ice, which is found on some stars.

A star is a giant ball of fire, sir. There is no water, or ice on them.

I have one last question, about religion in general: So if science is observable, provable fact. When one scientist says to another: hey, the earth is round measure this shadow in relation to x + y = z and then that second one can go and do the exact same things and reach the exact same conclusions, why doesn't that proof shake your beliefs whatsoever?

Because a belief is something unchangeable, that requires that you think something is true regardless of how little facts that you have (although you insist that 3 million jews could not be fooled, and were definitely there, and saw exactly what you've been told that they saw...because who would lie about a thing like that?). So what I find, in the end, is that we can argue semantics until the day is long, but when it really comes down to it religion only makes sense to those who believe in it. Because their the ones who make it true.

Think about it, if religion didn't exist. Neither would God. You'd think it went the other way, or at least silverwind will say it is, but really. When was the last time you saw God?

How about the nuclear bomb? Nothing...Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Darfur, the cutting and burning and damaging of our planet, the holocaust...landing on the moon, particle accelerators...not important. Some Jews enslaved by the Egyptians, OH MY GOD, BURNING BUSH, MOSES GET OUT OF THERE...PART THE SEAS...

Nothing. Lame. Belief. End of story.

 

[silver wind]

If people do horrible things, don't blame it on G-D, blame it in the lack of belief in G-D.

NASA scientists are working on a submarine, you know why? they plan to land on the star eourope, dig through 3 km of ICE, and reach the WATER below. Maybe you should tell them they're wrong?

How does Hiroshima and the holocaust disprove G-D?
On the contrary, It proves people's "NATURAL MORALITY" is very fragile, and we must have a guidance from above to tell us what's right and what's wrong. It's pure logic.
Actually, we (Jews) have profits warning us about the holocaust, and surprisingly, it came not when 90% of jews were religious, but when 90% of them abandoned their religion.
Did you hear? Let me repeat that.
The Nazis, who hated the 'traditional', 'old', religious, black wearing Jews, did not decide to mass murder them until 90% of the Jews stopped wearing black, stopped being religious and started acting like every other German of that time! How come..? Simply, as long as we believed G-D, he protected us, once we left him the German people could hurt us.
About damaging the planet, we have a tradition saying not to ruin because if we do, no one will fix it for us. If we ruin the planet, it's our problem.

Lastly, about 'science vs religion'. Religion has been unchanged, while science keeps changing. What if I become an atheist because I believed Newton's theory, and then died and went to hell because Einstein's theory was the right one?

 

[dadevvtsvre]

NASA scientists are working on a submarine, you know why? they plan to land on the star eourope, dig through 3 km of ICE, and reach the WATER below. Maybe you should tell them they're wrong?

Europa is a moon, not a star.

Lastly, about 'science vs religion'. Religion has been unchanged, while science keeps changing. What if I become an atheist because I believed Newton's theory, and then died and went to hell because Einstein's theory was the right one?

Er, what? What does a theory on physics have to do with believing in God? How do you become an atheist from that? Theories aren't religion. Theories are based on evidence and existing knowledge. You don't worship a theory. And from what I know very few theories actually directly contradict each other, it's not like one is right and another isn't but we don't know that so we're going to put faith in the one we think is correct.

(also, religion has been changing (not all mind you but many have), and science changes as we create new technologies that are capable of discovering newer data, adapting to newer knowledge so that it doesn't become outdated)

And if you're an atheist you believe there is no hell, so I'm sure you wouldn't have to worry about that.



I have a new question for anybody that believes a divine power created the universe. Why do you have a problem believing that the universe couldn't have been created without a Creator yet don't have a problem with the fact that we don't know how the Creator was made? Isn't that kind of hypocritical? I don't really understand-I see it as a paradox that people happen to overlook. Am I misinterpreting or something?

 

[Ellie]

Atheist does not equal science.

Religious does not equal anti-science.

They are two completely different things. You can very easily believe in both or not believe in either. In fact, a lot of scientists are religious.

 

[silver wind]

^ ditto that.
Like Dadevster said: a theory in physics or any other theory should not make one an atheist.
There are only few points where science and religion contradict each other, and any way we shouldn't set moral rules and get the 'meaning of life' from science. Science is not about that- it is about 'how' things work. Religion is about 'why' and 'what for'.
@Dadevster,
I am religious, and believe in hell, so I[\u] would care
j4kl1ng3r thinks science is a reason to become atheist, and I was replying replying to him.

About the paradox you presented, you can ask that about any theory: Big bang? why? where did the material that exploded came form? Did time exist before the big bang?
Evolution? Who made the first living cell, in a way he already could: A.eat, B.digest food, C.multiply (DNA and digestion system are nothing trivial, mind you).
G-D? Who created him and can he create a stone he himself can't lift, and all sorts of paradoxes. Both sides have a paradox in their base.
The 'official' answer is that G-D created time and material, therefore he can exist without them. He is timeless and spiritual (body less), so he does not need to be created. I'll explain why:
He is not like us which have an ' expiration date', we are not eternal. A human can only live for x years, therefore x years ago he had to be created, by someone else: parents, for most of us. However the first human had to be created by something else. It's simple logic. Unless you choose to believe in the 'ancient world' theory.

 

[Zelfouz]

Lastly, about 'science vs religion'. Religion has been unchanged, while science keeps changing.

You're right, that is a problem. Being capable of admitting your interpretation is incorrect is a huge sign of weakness. Our understanding of how things work should stop improving, in spite of new information becoming available.

What if I become an atheist because I believed Newton's theory, and then died and went to hell because Einstein's theory was the right one?

That's silly. No one believes you'll go to hell for having the wrong understanding of gravity.

eta:

Mentioning hell, how do you justify infinite punishment or reward for finite actions? Even Hitler only did a finite amount of evil. How is it at all justified to punish someone forever because of a few actions in a very short period of time?

 

[silver wind]

Justify like.... justice?
Who said there is justice, or there should be one?
If we are 'accidents' of nature, advanced monkeys, why do you expect justice? Monkeys don't need justice. If they want a bannana, they'll take it from another monkey without feeling bad. The other monkey won't go: it isn't fair, why is G-D doing this to me.
Did you know, that in 1905, the Evolution theory believers took a man from africa, killed his family and displayed him in a zoo beside monkeys as a 'link' between them and man. I believe this is a result of people thinking they are only animals. The poor man was kept at the zoo until the church demanded he will be released, and later he committed suicide.. The church at the same time, sent missionaries to Africa, to teach them, While the scientists claimed that it's ridiculous to assume that African men had feelings! You judge- which is more moral, and 'advanced'?

If you seek justice, seek guidance in G-D.
Don't get me wrong.
People can be very moral without a religion. There is a moral code 'implanted' into us*. The problem is that, sometimes, for various reasons, it is not enough.
The moral code is what enables G-D to punish us, since we feel something is wrong but do it anyway. Even a man in Zimbabwe who never heard of the real religion, is expected to not steal, murder, sleep with his mother, etc.
We, the Jews, don't believe you go to hell for not being a Jew. You go to hell for doing one of the 7 basic sins, which every human society today fights against: murder and theft and so on.

Now, I'll give you a straight answer: We believe being in hell is temporary, unless:
you've lived your entire life without *ever* *considering* to fix your ways, and you also made more sins than good deeds.

Finally, a question to all you Evolutionists: how do you justify digging people out of their graves and placing them in a museum? Some of the 'man apes' were later discovered to be humans just like us, Neanderthals are also now considered humans, so why do you disturb their resting place?

 

[Zelfouz]

Like you say, people instinctively have a certain set of morals, and then religion and culture results in a few others on top of that basis set. And then, people do horrible things regardless of this. Do you think that religious people never do anything wrong? Your religious morals are not always enough, either. No matter what a society does, there will always be people who violate whatever code of ethics happens to be present.

God supposedly enforces justice. My question was NOT concerning whether or not this should be enforced, but HOW it is enforced. You say that God supplies justice. What I am suggesting is that the concept of sending someone to hell to suffer for all of eternity for doing something wrong is NOT justice, either. Hell is an infinite amount of punishment for a finite amount of wrong-doing. A god that sends people to hell seems distinctively human to me.

Also: It occurs to me that I'm not actually entirely familiar with the Jewish concept of hell. Christianity suggests that hell is eternal: People in hell remain there forever. A quick search on Wikipedia suggests that Judaism does not hold this belief, so if this is not your belief then my objections here are moot.

 

[silver wind]

You're partially right. I fail to see how 'believing Jesus is our lord, and he'll forgive your bad actions' can ever make you a better person. According to this, I can kill my parents and be forgiven simply because I confessed.
It takes a large set of rules 'what not to do' and practices to do on a daily basis, and philosophic ideas (which character qualities are good and how to get them) to help people become better. I find all these in my religion, but not in others.
Religious Jews have a low rate of criminal acts, I don't know about other religions, but I'd like to believe the religion has some effect. The concept of heaven/hell and 'final judgment' alone can make a difference. Sometimes religious people do bad things, but they are only human.

 

[So fist]

The bible isn't a text anyone can interpret how he/she understands it. The traditional way to explain the 2 biblical texts is different from your interpretation.
Your view of the text is simply not relevant, I'm not trying to offend, please understand:
Any religion should have a set of rules/ideas(the bible), and if the rules(or ideas) aren't clear, there should be someone/someway to explain what they mean. Otherwise, anyone would have his own idea of Judaism/Christianity/Islam, leading to a religion with thousands of different 'cults'.

Wow. Ok. Its time to break it to you silver. I understand that in your neighborhood everyone wears black, votes Shas, and has the women cover their hair and sit in separate pews at temple, but that is not the majority of Judaism worldwide or even in Israel itself. Judaism consists of multiple sects and interpretations that covers the full spectrum of Ultra orthodoxy to reform minded liberalism the vast majority falling in between. And trust me that in between does not come close to resembling your understanding of Judaism. Even conservative strains of Judaism (not to be confused with orthodoxy) has adapted itself to fit into the liberal traditions of the modern world. Many Conservative sects ordain women and homosexuals as rabbis, allow women to be counted for a quorem, permit congregational based governance of temples, and have a view of Torah and interpretation that is more akin to Protestant and Humanist views of theological debate (as opposed to your view of Rabbanical authoritarianism). In short they view the reality of their laity (for lack of a better word) as valid if not more valid than Torah orthodoxy and Rabbanical tradition. Reform Judaism goes even farther, but I think my point is just about made.

You can call them cults if you wish and even non Jews, but rest assured there are way more adherents to those sects with their own panels of respected Rabbis that work hand in hand with their congregational traditions. But you can rest assured that your sect doesn't put them in their list of 120 respected Rabbis who decide what your religion is.

The irony of all this is that you may have more in common with the Wahhabis who want to kill you for being a kufr than with the average moderate to conservative Jew.

So I just want to let folks know that Silver wind's views are not reflective of typical modern Judaism. Her's is more akin to the orthodoxy of Amish Christians and Conservative Islam than it is to common mainstream sects of those same religions. This is not meant to invalidate her beliefs, just meant to clarify that the royal we she is using reflects mainly on her own sect of Judaism and not the actual whole spectrum of its current practices.

 

[mawk]

Religion has been unchanged, while science keeps changing.

you're saying that science adapts to new proofs while people are afraid to change anything about their religious practices (at least openly) because they mistake the smallest observances for irreplaceable holy rituals

and acting like that's an argument for religion?

 

[So fist]

Religion changes all the time. When was the last time your temple had an animal sacrifice?

 

[mawk]

(at least openly)

people change how they observe their religion all the time but most are incredibly fickle about what they're willing to update. most of the time they don't admit the change and kind of kick it under the mental rug. for all that people aren't stoning adulterers anymore, they still seem very fixed on the biblical descriptions of the world's nativity and history (which are very likely not meant for the greater part to be literal descriptions in the first place)

there's actually a tangentially related book called "living biblically" that I've been wanting to find lately, just because it seems like an interesting project to follow the bible's instructions exactly for a year. not wearing mixed fibers, etc.

 

[j4kl1ng3r]

If people do horrible things, don't blame it on G-D, blame it in the lack of belief in G-D.

NASA scientists are working on a submarine, you know why? they plan to land on the star eourope, dig through 3 km of ICE, and reach the WATER below. Maybe you should tell them they're wrong?

How does Hiroshima and the holocaust disprove G-D?
On the contrary, It proves people's "NATURAL MORALITY" is very fragile, and we must have a guidance from above to tell us what's right and what's wrong. It's pure logic.
Actually, we (Jews) have profits warning us about the holocaust, and surprisingly, it came not when 90% of jews were religious, but when 90% of them abandoned their religion.
Did you hear? Let me repeat that.
The Nazis, who hated the 'traditional', 'old', religious, black wearing Jews, did not decide to mass murder them until 90% of the Jews stopped wearing black, stopped being religious and started acting like every other German of that time! How come..? Simply, as long as we believed G-D, he protected us, once we left him the German people could hurt us.
About damaging the planet, we have a tradition saying not to ruin because if we do, no one will fix it for us. If we ruin the planet, it's our problem.

Lastly, about 'science vs religion'. Religion has been unchanged, while science keeps changing. What if I become an atheist because I believed Newton's theory, and then died and went to hell because Einstein's theory was the right one?

Atheism is just as bad as religion, and I don't condone it, or believe in it. I am a Buddhist, we don't believe in a God, but we aren't atheist. I am also an anti-theist, but that's another story.

I was citing those examples, because I was asking you why God found it pertinent to come down and make his presence known to your people and Moses but yet showed absolutely no interest in some of the most amazing human achievements of all time. I specifically believe that God should have come down for at least the first test of the Nuclear bomb because man had just harnessed the power TO SPLIT AN ATOM IN HALF. I mean, maybe, in God's eyes, that really doesn't mean much. Who knows? But, science and religion diverge on points that I think the intelligent human being would find very disheartening.

Namely: The Earth's age. I mean, let me just put it this way. I know, and have read studies, that have shown how many scientists are Christians or are a part of some religion. I have a problem with the way those surveys were done because I believe that being "religious" doesn't mean your not Agnostic, which is what 99% (I think) of people actually are, and what I believe is the only true way to be religious.

Saying you know is saying your right, and saying your right is ridiculous because you've never seen God, he hasn't come down yet, how can you know? Have you ever had an intelligent argument with a person about religion and not have it come down to some debate over semantics, usually them ending with "it's just what I believe"? I mean, most of these people will make all sorts of concessions that go against the beliefs and practices of their own religions just to hold ground in an argument, which in my mind makes them Agnostic.

Anyways, food for thought. Genesis, God said "don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". And I thought to myself, when I read this, don't you find it strange that God DIDN'T WANT Adam and Eve to know of good and evil? I mean, this gives new meaning to the term "ignorant bliss". Can you suppose, then, that religious folk shouldn't spend their time focusing on knowledge at all, and just on their religion. God's intentions are obviously for you not to KNOW anything. Eh? Eh?

 

[Incognitus]

Atheism is just as bad as religion, and I don't condone it

Oh dear god...

*facedesk*

I refer you to a bazillion posts in the Other Religion Topic

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=61271

 

[tgman]

this is what i don't get with christianity: if Godis real how did he come into existence i mean he couldnt of been there forever and just decided to create all this the earth the universe and everything else out there i'm sorry but the big bang theory contradicts all of this and find it hard to believe in any higher power or person or even thing controlling everything
its just so confusing to me

 

[Ellie]

What if the big bang created god, and god created us?

Or, god created the big bang?

The theory of the big bang doesn't have to contradict the theory of a "creator", nor does the theory of a creator have to contradict the theory of the big bang.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Ellie]

I dunno. Basically no question in this thread has had an answer, because when someone can't answer a question in the way people want them to they decend into insulting the beliefs of the person asking the question, ignoring the question entirely, or changing the subject to one which betters their own religion.