Debate: middle class privalege (..from, black privalege)
- Thread starter Ellie
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Yeah but that's like the initial point of the topic. That middle class people who can't really afford to pay the costs but the government thinks they have enough money... those people come out of college with debt and having a -$ attached to your name as soon as you come out of school and ready for the big world because of loans sure sucks. And also it depends how much aid you get. The whole thing isn't usually covered so sometimes you get government aid and STILL need loans.
Draycos Goldaryn
Member
tobacco goldfish":1ziqjplw said:
Wikipedia":1ziqjplw said:
When I was in school, the month of may was for review and final exams, not Asian/Pacific American Heritage. I have honestly never heard of it till you posted the link.
wikipedia":1ziqjplw said:
Again, never heard of it till now. If I did, then why do I not know of any contributions made by Hispanic
Americans? Also, this is at the beginning of the school year where the focus is more on what have we retained over the summer as well as what we will be learning that year.
dadevvtsvre
Sponsor
ahahahaha oh my god. will reply when i get home.
This is complete bullshit. Scholarships should be given based on individual merit, such as academic achievement or community service. Giving out scholarships to someone just because they fit a certain demographic does not promote equality, or hard work; it promotes discrimination, and will keep fueling the fires of racism, homophobia, sexism, etc.dadevster":rmmoss2k said:
ForeverZer0
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Kav":30eq9m9p said:
This is the most intelligent and real response yet in this topic. I could not agree more.
dadevvtsvre
Sponsor
How, exactly, is having scholarships targeted towards a minority going to encourage racism? That's a powerful statement and I don't know how you can support something like that. It's not promoting discrimination, it's encouraging minorities to have the same jobs as white people, to earn the same salaries, etc. - promoting equality.Kav":1ihxwtpy said:
Obviously scholarships should be given based on academic merit. Nobody is giving away scholarships to every black kid in America. There are simply some scholarships that only some people can receive, to create equal opportunities. It does not mean that these people are undeserving, or have not worked hard for these scholarships and opportunities. Why should you think they are working any less hard than anybody else?
dadevvtsvre
Sponsor
Then do it.ForeverZer0":38ah6pz7 said:
What are you trying to say here? That we should forget about the slave trade and completely disregard it simply because they're all dead?ForeverZer0":38ah6pz7 said:
Here is my policy on race
I really dont give a fuck.
It doesnt matter if you are black/white/etc and I dont think it should matter
I think the idea of generalizing people into groups is kind of dumb
I mean, im white so thats it. I guess im a cracker or whatever someone calls it.
Maybe its just me
If someone is black, someone is black. I dont think I should feel bad for the guy or beat him with a stick. Thats stupid. Even if he is black, i think your history and life should matter more than what color your skin is.
~
Again, Im white so I guess I wouldnt really know so this is sort of ignorant
but what i do know is that everyone has a history and I think its a good idea to recognize peoples major accomplishments that revolutionized american history.
There is still discrimination in the United States and dev made that clear in his first post.
~
I really dont give a fuck.
It doesnt matter if you are black/white/etc and I dont think it should matter
I think the idea of generalizing people into groups is kind of dumb
I mean, im white so thats it. I guess im a cracker or whatever someone calls it.
Maybe its just me
If someone is black, someone is black. I dont think I should feel bad for the guy or beat him with a stick. Thats stupid. Even if he is black, i think your history and life should matter more than what color your skin is.
~
Again, Im white so I guess I wouldnt really know so this is sort of ignorant
but what i do know is that everyone has a history and I think its a good idea to recognize peoples major accomplishments that revolutionized american history.
There is still discrimination in the United States and dev made that clear in his first post.
~
I think that both dev and kav are both right and wrong
there is so many variables that I think it would be impossible to tell you what is racist and what isnt racist
In my experience in living in AZ, Hispanics have it pretty rough sometimes. Definitely moreso than your typical white person.
So do you give a scholorship to some middle class white kid with no problems that gets good grades or to some Hispanic kid who has to maintain a job to get food on the table?
but thats one example
in the same sense, do you give it to some white kid with no problems and gets good grades or do you give it to some Hispanic kid who lives in poverty but didnt try in school because he doesnt give a fuck
or do you give it to that same middle class white kid or a middle class hispanic
or do you give it to a poor white kid who tries real hard and a hispanic middleclass that doesnt
or do you give it to some poor white kid who doesnt try hard but is poor or some middleclass hispanicnwho triies
I cant say
because i havent lived it and I really cant give an accurate response
much like pretty much everyone else here cant either
I dont really know what is racist and what is not
because of the media and because of so many different factors
there government, portrayal in the media, poverty rate, and the human being themselves
there isnt a meter that automatically detects people who try and people who dont or who deserves what
I guess what I am saying is that no one can give an accurate answer so oh well~
there is so many variables that I think it would be impossible to tell you what is racist and what isnt racist
In my experience in living in AZ, Hispanics have it pretty rough sometimes. Definitely moreso than your typical white person.
So do you give a scholorship to some middle class white kid with no problems that gets good grades or to some Hispanic kid who has to maintain a job to get food on the table?
but thats one example
in the same sense, do you give it to some white kid with no problems and gets good grades or do you give it to some Hispanic kid who lives in poverty but didnt try in school because he doesnt give a fuck
or do you give it to that same middle class white kid or a middle class hispanic
or do you give it to a poor white kid who tries real hard and a hispanic middleclass that doesnt
or do you give it to some poor white kid who doesnt try hard but is poor or some middleclass hispanicnwho triies
I cant say
because i havent lived it and I really cant give an accurate response
much like pretty much everyone else here cant either
I dont really know what is racist and what is not
because of the media and because of so many different factors
there government, portrayal in the media, poverty rate, and the human being themselves
there isnt a meter that automatically detects people who try and people who dont or who deserves what
I guess what I am saying is that no one can give an accurate answer so oh well~
dadevvtsvre
Sponsor
Well, let's pack it up, folks. Looks like we're done here. :Vbacon":3mwg3koz said:
dadevster":1ddz7pbq said:
Giving something to one race and not another is the definition of raccism where providing resources is concerned.
Equality would be giving everybody the same opportunities.
Giving one group more opportunities instead of another might help in the long run to make them equal, but in the short term all it does is the opposite. Instead of being turned down a job for being black, you're turned down for a job because you're not black and they gotta fill quotas.
I am all for giving everybody equal opportunities, if those opportunities are indeed equal.
I know a lot of these arguments are used by extremists and such but that's not the point.
(What don't lock this thread it's finally got people talking which was the point :crazy: )
I agree with Amy.
If you don't want people being treated unfairly then don't put people into any group. As soon as you start dividing things up that such and such percent of people need to be x race or x gender than it's discrimination regardless of if it's a positive thing or a negative thing going for them. Racism still exists yes! But when you keep dividing people then it will still exists. If everyone is just considered one group, then they will eventually be just one group. If you don't want racism to exist anymore than you need to be together. There's no such thing as separate but equal. They tried to do that nonsense back in the segregation days. See how that worked? You have to be together. Everyone classified under the same ticket. The more you struggle to hold the division (positive or negatively) it will continue onward.
Another thing that could be done is how about on an application to job or school we get rid of the stupid "race" and "gender" tags. Why are they even there? It really shouldn't effect how a person is to be judge before you even saw the person irl. It's just nonsense.
If you don't want people being treated unfairly then don't put people into any group. As soon as you start dividing things up that such and such percent of people need to be x race or x gender than it's discrimination regardless of if it's a positive thing or a negative thing going for them. Racism still exists yes! But when you keep dividing people then it will still exists. If everyone is just considered one group, then they will eventually be just one group. If you don't want racism to exist anymore than you need to be together. There's no such thing as separate but equal. They tried to do that nonsense back in the segregation days. See how that worked? You have to be together. Everyone classified under the same ticket. The more you struggle to hold the division (positive or negatively) it will continue onward.
Another thing that could be done is how about on an application to job or school we get rid of the stupid "race" and "gender" tags. Why are they even there? It really shouldn't effect how a person is to be judge before you even saw the person irl. It's just nonsense.
glorious caesar
Sponsor
i wanted to avoid this topic but i just cant help myself :robot:
ahhahahah what dude. it's obviously NOT WORKING, or else topics like this wouldn't exist. it's promoting discrimination by giving people something that they, as an individual, very possibly do not deserve. it sends the very backwards message that black people (or whoever) don't have to work for their money, but a white person would have to work very hard to get their scholarship.
this is actually where a tremendous amount of modern racism comes from: few people today believe that blacks are inferior or garbage like that, but people hold a (somewhat justified) grudge when someone gets something that isn't based on actual WORTH. when black students are getting into universities because it gives the school a tax break for meeting a minority quota, then the white kid who studied his ass off to pass his SATs but got rejected has every right to be pissed off (not at BLAX, but you see where this is going).
now i'm going to sound like a white redneck here but i mean i don't believe in government handouts to ANYBODY and i'm very conservative on that anyway. but dude giving away some taxpayer's hard-earned money (whatever their race) to some leecher for no reason other than to fill a minority quota is morally disgusting.
OPRODUCERS VERSUS LEECHERS AND PARASITES OF THE WORLD AND IT IS WRONG TO GIVE BASED ON NEED ETC ETC
ahhahahah what dude. it's obviously NOT WORKING, or else topics like this wouldn't exist. it's promoting discrimination by giving people something that they, as an individual, very possibly do not deserve. it sends the very backwards message that black people (or whoever) don't have to work for their money, but a white person would have to work very hard to get their scholarship.
this is actually where a tremendous amount of modern racism comes from: few people today believe that blacks are inferior or garbage like that, but people hold a (somewhat justified) grudge when someone gets something that isn't based on actual WORTH. when black students are getting into universities because it gives the school a tax break for meeting a minority quota, then the white kid who studied his ass off to pass his SATs but got rejected has every right to be pissed off (not at BLAX, but you see where this is going).
now i'm going to sound like a white redneck here but i mean i don't believe in government handouts to ANYBODY and i'm very conservative on that anyway. but dude giving away some taxpayer's hard-earned money (whatever their race) to some leecher for no reason other than to fill a minority quota is morally disgusting.
OPRODUCERS VERSUS LEECHERS AND PARASITES OF THE WORLD AND IT IS WRONG TO GIVE BASED ON NEED ETC ETC
ForeverZer0
Sponsor
dadevster":1nio3tjo said:
1. The Holocaust
2. Bosnia
3. Rwanda
4. Native Americans
5. Pretty much all of Africa (Sudan, Cambodia, etc.)
I can keep going if you like. Maybe if you flipped on the news every once and a while you would notice these things.
dadevster":1nio3tjo said:
Not saying we should erase history of course, don't purposefully misinterpret what I said in an attempt to make some "profound" point, but why should my tax dollars go to a fund to pay for it?
How can you not understand that treating one ethnicity DIFFERENT does not promote EQUALITY. Its a contradiction. I mean seriously, you would have to be a real tool not to see that.
So much to respond to. I'll just dive right in.
First off, I never quite understood the envy of social safety net benefits on the part of some middle class white people. Do you seriously wish your life was in a situation where you would qualify for a max return on EITC, food stamps, SSI disability benefits, and public housing? Would you actually trade your current lifestyle with someone enjoying all these perks of civilization? I doubt you would, but most that are in that situation would trade with you in a heartbeat.
Join the army or take out a reasonable student loan, hell you may even qualify for a subsidized Stafford. Most loans are set for a ten year period after graduation. The monthly payments on those are smaller than a car loan and considering the economic mobility of someone with a bachelor's well worth it. Unless you don't finish the degree or you are a nutcase who is un-hirable, it's a general win win proposition. School is affordable for you. If you want to go totally el cheapo to minimize debt payments take two years of your degree at a community college at half the cost.
Count your blessings. You didn't have to grow up in a neighborhood where the median income was 17k, where no one expects anyone to go to college, where the most profitable and aspired to profession is to be a drug mule and put in work for the local gangs, where getting robbed, shot, or beat up is a general concern, where most of your neighbors has someone in their family who is a junkie, and where most of your neighbors in their family knows someone who has been shot, seen someone shot, or was a shooter. You are making the big mistake of looking at this as if the experience of folks that teeter at the edge of the social safety net somehow mirrors your safe blissfully mediocre suburban life where all your neighbors expect their kids to go to college and would be semi ashamed if their any of their children dropped out of high school.
There is no such thing as a free lunch as the adage goes. Your tuition fees, registration costs, etc. would simply be shifted to your tax bill. Nothing becomes magically free. Even if you decree it.
Here is some little mentioned and discussed Americana
They became quite the rage in the early to mid 20th century. Attendees would buy them and send them to their friends and relatives to share jeers at the victim or to talk about the lovely afternoon they had watching a person whose humanity they considered less than their own be hung and roasted. During their heyday they were quite popular until the US postal service was finally sick of having to look at them and refused to carry them as valid mail. Yet the message they carried was quite clear. Your murder can be broadcasted to the entire United States and no one, no one will speak for you or defend you. A million eyes disgusted just look away and move to other things like it was just some momentary ghost of the conscience. Up until the mid sixties the majority of African Americans lived under this spectre of racial terror. A racial terror that did not settle for merely complete preferential access to economic and educational resources, but wanted nothing less than the terrorized negro to wear the persona that is expected of a nigger. To call them sir and ma'am, to demure and humble themselves, to be a minstrel show when they so wish, and to take a bottle to the face and grin for the privilege of the opportunity to be assaulted by a white man. What progress can the majority of men stuck in such terror make when to show the intelligence and firmness that would require you to be successful got you labeled as uppity and talking out of turn, which is assuredly hazardous to your health. African American progress on the whole most assuredly crawled during this time while White America continued to widen the gap. It isn't a straight line to this and the civil rights movement of the sixties but for the sake of brevity I am going to jump there.
Voting Rights act and Brown v. Board of Education slowly killed Jim Crow. For the first time on paper a larger portion of African American's may have access to the same educational and economic resources as their white counterparts. But of course there is the active de jure segregation of Jim Crow. Yet the inequalities that racial segregation created were not undone by the outlaw of de jure segregation. There was still the reality of segregation that naturally occurred among economic lines. Brown v. Education eliminated the white and black only facility, but it did not eliminate the neighborhood school or the reality that education is largely funded by the local municipalities. All of this leading to the reality that if you live in the well to do middle income and above communities your access to quality public education was in general much better then those of the rural and urban poor. If you had the unfortunate luck of being born in an urban ghetto or the backwoods chances were high that your education would be inferior to that of someone from the much nicer bedroom communities due to the lack of available local funding and the compounded additional social issues that go with concentrated poverty. Public education in the United States is still wrestling with this problem and Ed Reform act and NCLB were attempts at trying to solve these achievement gaps within the public system, but these efforts only reflect the work of the last twenty or so years.
Anyway my point isn't to say that all black people are poor, in ghettos, are social welfare cases. I'm just pointing out that on an aggregate level historically they disproportionately have more of these problems and there are very unique historical circumstances as to why that was and how we got there. These kinds of problems are protracted ones that will take generations to make gains on.
First off, I never quite understood the envy of social safety net benefits on the part of some middle class white people. Do you seriously wish your life was in a situation where you would qualify for a max return on EITC, food stamps, SSI disability benefits, and public housing? Would you actually trade your current lifestyle with someone enjoying all these perks of civilization? I doubt you would, but most that are in that situation would trade with you in a heartbeat.
Join the army or take out a reasonable student loan, hell you may even qualify for a subsidized Stafford. Most loans are set for a ten year period after graduation. The monthly payments on those are smaller than a car loan and considering the economic mobility of someone with a bachelor's well worth it. Unless you don't finish the degree or you are a nutcase who is un-hirable, it's a general win win proposition. School is affordable for you. If you want to go totally el cheapo to minimize debt payments take two years of your degree at a community college at half the cost.
Count your blessings. You didn't have to grow up in a neighborhood where the median income was 17k, where no one expects anyone to go to college, where the most profitable and aspired to profession is to be a drug mule and put in work for the local gangs, where getting robbed, shot, or beat up is a general concern, where most of your neighbors has someone in their family who is a junkie, and where most of your neighbors in their family knows someone who has been shot, seen someone shot, or was a shooter. You are making the big mistake of looking at this as if the experience of folks that teeter at the edge of the social safety net somehow mirrors your safe blissfully mediocre suburban life where all your neighbors expect their kids to go to college and would be semi ashamed if their any of their children dropped out of high school.
There is no such thing as a free lunch as the adage goes. Your tuition fees, registration costs, etc. would simply be shifted to your tax bill. Nothing becomes magically free. Even if you decree it.
Here is some little mentioned and discussed Americana
They became quite the rage in the early to mid 20th century. Attendees would buy them and send them to their friends and relatives to share jeers at the victim or to talk about the lovely afternoon they had watching a person whose humanity they considered less than their own be hung and roasted. During their heyday they were quite popular until the US postal service was finally sick of having to look at them and refused to carry them as valid mail. Yet the message they carried was quite clear. Your murder can be broadcasted to the entire United States and no one, no one will speak for you or defend you. A million eyes disgusted just look away and move to other things like it was just some momentary ghost of the conscience. Up until the mid sixties the majority of African Americans lived under this spectre of racial terror. A racial terror that did not settle for merely complete preferential access to economic and educational resources, but wanted nothing less than the terrorized negro to wear the persona that is expected of a nigger. To call them sir and ma'am, to demure and humble themselves, to be a minstrel show when they so wish, and to take a bottle to the face and grin for the privilege of the opportunity to be assaulted by a white man. What progress can the majority of men stuck in such terror make when to show the intelligence and firmness that would require you to be successful got you labeled as uppity and talking out of turn, which is assuredly hazardous to your health. African American progress on the whole most assuredly crawled during this time while White America continued to widen the gap. It isn't a straight line to this and the civil rights movement of the sixties but for the sake of brevity I am going to jump there.
Voting Rights act and Brown v. Board of Education slowly killed Jim Crow. For the first time on paper a larger portion of African American's may have access to the same educational and economic resources as their white counterparts. But of course there is the active de jure segregation of Jim Crow. Yet the inequalities that racial segregation created were not undone by the outlaw of de jure segregation. There was still the reality of segregation that naturally occurred among economic lines. Brown v. Education eliminated the white and black only facility, but it did not eliminate the neighborhood school or the reality that education is largely funded by the local municipalities. All of this leading to the reality that if you live in the well to do middle income and above communities your access to quality public education was in general much better then those of the rural and urban poor. If you had the unfortunate luck of being born in an urban ghetto or the backwoods chances were high that your education would be inferior to that of someone from the much nicer bedroom communities due to the lack of available local funding and the compounded additional social issues that go with concentrated poverty. Public education in the United States is still wrestling with this problem and Ed Reform act and NCLB were attempts at trying to solve these achievement gaps within the public system, but these efforts only reflect the work of the last twenty or so years.
Anyway my point isn't to say that all black people are poor, in ghettos, are social welfare cases. I'm just pointing out that on an aggregate level historically they disproportionately have more of these problems and there are very unique historical circumstances as to why that was and how we got there. These kinds of problems are protracted ones that will take generations to make gains on.
Maybe if you cracked open a history book you'd realize that the middle passage itself ignoring all other negative aspects of the slave trade claimed the lives of at the most conservative estimate over two million indigenous Africans. Already in terms of death toll you can knock off Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan, and Cambodia (which is in Asia, chief). The idea that you would perceive Bosnia as more costly (200,000 though not all directly related to Serbian ethnic cleansing) only informs me that you're woefully ignorant of the tremendous tragedy of the slave trade. That's two million before we even account for the lifelong chattel slavery of them and their offspring, their vulnerability to brutality, starvation, and rape, and the tortures they were subjected to in the name of discipline and order. As far as historical human tragedies as far as size and scope is concerned it's easily secure in the top five. And one of the most important in terms of American history.
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