What *exactly* is 'right' and 'wrong'?
- Thread starter DeM0nFiRe
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Brimstone-x
Member
Right and Wrong are what the majority of the population say are right and wrong. Thats what I believe anyways.
sixtyandaquarter
Member
If the majority of the population looked to you Brimstone-x and decided to put you in a cage, and burn you with tiny little cigarettes, to cut off your toes one by one and feed them to you while using your eye balls as ice cubes - and they all thought it was a good deal, does it make it right?
Sixty said:
Not right, morally, but socially acceptable. Look what happened to the Jews. If 90% of people, including politicians, policemen and the army said 'hey, lets go bully race x' and the 10% who opposed were tortured, exploited and killed, what would you do? Run maybe, but unable to hide.
sixtyandaquarter
Member
The statement was that right and wrong are the majority, acceptance is a definite in that. Like saying shades of blue have more blue than red. Mentioning how red is a part of many blues raises no point. And why I felt like going with a RGB on that I'm not sure.
Ha ha, you guys have so de-railed this topic from the original point. Morals were not originally a signifigant part of this discussion. The discussion was supposed to be of logic toprove or disprove the existence of an absolute truth. It seems the only other person who was interested in keeping this logic-based has lost interest, so I suppose if you guys want to change direction of this discussion, that's fine. However, I would like to keep the original discussion going if anyone else is interested. Otherwise, I guess I'm out of this discussion XD
The existence of right and wrong stems from a desire to obtain a degree of law and order that evolved into our brains as one of the functions of the superego. While there are indeed many things considered right or wrong that are relative, there are many more that are hard-coded into our minds, much like Asimov's three laws of robotics are to robots. These are usually behaviors which are meant to ensure the continuation and/or safety of the species.
A mind that is altered, whether by genetics or environment, can neglect these rules, but the average human suffers from various symptoms should they neglect these rules, such as extreme, mind-rending guilt and possibly insanity (Crime and Punishment depicts this fairly well, although it is a story and not a case study or anything), and even physical symptoms similar to depression.
If this discussion were regarding beasts who do not have the type of mind we developed it might be logical to say that everything is relative, but our minds are complex and sometimes punish behaviors that would have a negative impact on our species.
A mind that is altered, whether by genetics or environment, can neglect these rules, but the average human suffers from various symptoms should they neglect these rules, such as extreme, mind-rending guilt and possibly insanity (Crime and Punishment depicts this fairly well, although it is a story and not a case study or anything), and even physical symptoms similar to depression.
If this discussion were regarding beasts who do not have the type of mind we developed it might be logical to say that everything is relative, but our minds are complex and sometimes punish behaviors that would have a negative impact on our species.
In my opinion:
Right: Something that either aids, or does nothing, to another person
Wrong: Something which -directly- causes harm or distress to another person
So...
Buttsex = right
Buttsex when you know you have HIV and don't have their permission = wrong
Moider = wrong
Playing an online game no-one else likes = right
Practicing a religion = right
Using a religion to change others beliefs or hurt them = wrong
Right: Something that either aids, or does nothing, to another person
Wrong: Something which -directly- causes harm or distress to another person
So...
Buttsex = right
Buttsex when you know you have HIV and don't have their permission = wrong
Moider = wrong
Playing an online game no-one else likes = right
Practicing a religion = right
Using a religion to change others beliefs or hurt them = wrong
GrooveMan.exe
Member
To be picky by definition, Right and Wrong are Axiomatic concepts.
An axiom is an opinion or concept, that everyone views as true without much complaint. "Freedom is a good thing" is axiomatic, where "We need air to breathe" is not (It's a fact, not an opinion).
It's axiomatic that we believe that Right is good, and Wrong is bad. That much we can say for definite. The sticking point is what we group under Right/Good and Wrong/Bad. This is open to interpretation for person to person, and is largely undefinable; aside from other axioms, and facts.
An axiom is an opinion or concept, that everyone views as true without much complaint. "Freedom is a good thing" is axiomatic, where "We need air to breathe" is not (It's a fact, not an opinion).
It's axiomatic that we believe that Right is good, and Wrong is bad. That much we can say for definite. The sticking point is what we group under Right/Good and Wrong/Bad. This is open to interpretation for person to person, and is largely undefinable; aside from other axioms, and facts.
Dissonance
Member
OP, you used a specific example on IRC. Something akin to "If I believe 2 + 2 = 5, then 2 + 2 is 5. It becomes right because I say it is so." There is an obvious flaw here. There are only three possible outcomes that makes your quoted idea true.
One - You don't know basic math and do believe that 2 + 2 actually is 5.
Two - You were taught incorrect words as a child. You were taught that the numeral-concept that everybody else refers to as 'four' is actually referred to as 'five'. So in your mind, 2 + 2 = 5, but by 5 you actually mean 4. (This is similar to different words meaning the same thing across languages - in this case, you would be taught an altered form of English where the concept of 'four' is called 'five'.)
Three - You know basic math, you've been taught standard English, but you are insane and/or delusional. Believing something to be so or not so while insane and/or delusional doesn't make it true.
You used another example: "If a person says the world is flat, then the world is flat." No, the physical parameters of our planet do not change every time somebody wills it. The world is round. There is only one truth here, and simply believing something alternative doesn't make your position right.
The problem with your logic is that you've yet to prove a rational link between "I think this" and "this is reality".
One - You don't know basic math and do believe that 2 + 2 actually is 5.
Two - You were taught incorrect words as a child. You were taught that the numeral-concept that everybody else refers to as 'four' is actually referred to as 'five'. So in your mind, 2 + 2 = 5, but by 5 you actually mean 4. (This is similar to different words meaning the same thing across languages - in this case, you would be taught an altered form of English where the concept of 'four' is called 'five'.)
Three - You know basic math, you've been taught standard English, but you are insane and/or delusional. Believing something to be so or not so while insane and/or delusional doesn't make it true.
You used another example: "If a person says the world is flat, then the world is flat." No, the physical parameters of our planet do not change every time somebody wills it. The world is round. There is only one truth here, and simply believing something alternative doesn't make your position right.
The problem with your logic is that you've yet to prove a rational link between "I think this" and "this is reality".