Veil, or no Veil?

[Ellie]

As you probably know one of the things that keeps appearing in the news in the UK is the wearing of veils in the Islam religion. This thread is to discuss that.

Personally, I see the idea of covering ones body to be just plain wrong. The fact that only women have to do it is sexist, it is saying "you were born a woman, so you should cover your body so nobody has to see your ugliness!".

One of the arguments against wearing a veil is that you cannot communicate while wearing one. On a programme this morning they interviewed a Muslim woman, who was wearing a veil, and in all honesty I couldn't understand what she was saying. I do not mean this in a racist way, don't get me wrong, but I simply couldn't hear her as her words were muffled and a lot quieter through the veil!

Another argument which is for wearing a veil is this:

Wearing a veil is part of the Islamic religion, it is what God wants us to do.

Now... This got me thinking.

If I was to go out now, buy a notepad, and write in it this:

The Book of Wyatt
...and it was on that day, that the first Wyatt stepped down from Wyatt land and brought his only single commandment upon the peasants who walked the lands of Birmingham:

My friends, thy God wanteth thou to wear nothing below the torso. No more shall thou weareth underwear, pants, trousers, shorts, socks, shoes; thoest shall be free and natural from whence more.

================

Does this therefore mean, that I can go everywhere I like with nothing on my legs?

No, because it is not a real religion.

But... it is. Even though it was founded today, I still believe in the First Wyatt with all me heart, and love thou Wyatt God.

Urgh... Just because you write something in a book doesn't make it a religion.

What about the Bible, Qu'ran, and all the others?

That's different. Anyway, not wearing any clothes below the torso is against the school rules.

So is wearing a veil.

But we have to make exceptions, it is in their religion.

==================

/discuss

 

[Wings]

Personally, I see the idea of covering ones body to be just plain wrong. The fact that only women have to do it is sexist, it is saying "you were born a woman, so you should cover your body so nobody has to see your ugliness!".

Actually, I believe the reason why women are supposed to wear veils in the Islamic culture mainly stems from "let's not be tempted". Covering their bodies with cloth reduces the male temptation to rape. At least that's what I've heard.

EDIT: Don't judge customs too harshly.

 

[macchia]

Plenty of people in the US choose to wear them and arent forced to. And they're called burkas. Its no different than fashion, people wear stupid stuff for the sake of being up to date and they look ridiculous. Many of them dont want to, but they do anyway. Is the UK complaining about 12 year olds dressing up like whores? Or are they only concerned with getting Islamic women there? Im sorry, of all the frivelous things to argue about, Muslim statutes on wifebeating, cutting out the clitoris, not letting them have jobs, and this is what you concentrate on because its the most visually obvious? Cmon dude, its the least of their problems and if you lived in the desert you'd probably choose to wear a burka many days out fo the week just as many 'liberalized' Islamic do.
Additionally, if you saw the way women in third world countries just south of them were treated by men you'd probably cover yourself up too and do everything in your power to convince strangers you're not worth raping.

 

[Calibre]

Basing my reply on macchias comments, I think it would be fair to say that Wyatt did not present this matter as well as he could.

The debate is not only of the UK but across much of Europe. In fact the UK is one of the more lenient constituencies in this instance. In became headline news when MP Jack Straw made a comment on the subject.

It came to attention when both Muslim teachers and students demanded they wore their veils to school - in turn damaging pupil to pupil communication as well as pupil to tutor communciation. Schools are allowed to create their own dresscode and the islamic veil is worn through choice and not through religious reasoning.

Macchia, your comments on the reasoning being to avoid rape are non applicable when discussing the integration of Muslims into a British society. The whole reasoning behind the debate is the integration mentioned, and attempting to stimulate communication between differing cultures as opposed to further differentiation.

It is also a case of when our women visit other countries they are expected to respect the culture of that locale, so it should be the same with them visiting our country.

Islamic people themselves have stated that they feel uncomfortable communicating with someone which they cannot see their face. I'm sure it can be agreed that within the UK, veils are adverse to social intergration between the two parties.

Isn't this just a simple case as when in Rome... On holiday, you must always appreciate the customs of that nation, and you can expect the same in return. This isn't an argument about religious headwear, it's just that this garment conceals all the face. There are no complaints against turbans etc.

 

[Norris]

These kinds of issues bother me when it substantially interferes with the effective carrying out of ‘routines’ to the detriment of a majority of others who don’t want to be affected. In reasonable contexts where not only communication but identification as well is highly relevant/critical, I don’t want to see it worn by any women. Teachers, inmates, etc. shouldn't really be wearing such things for obvious reasons... this goes for any other religious apparel.

Prison guard: Are you sure your name’s not Joanne… cause if you are you should be over at the maximum-security wing.

Teacher: Good morning class *muffle muffle muffle* and that's the human anatomy. Any *muffle*?

 

[FzGhouL]

Lets get some facts in here.

1) There are no such thing as Islamic people. They are called Muslims.

2) Islam DOES NOT promote wearing the veil. In fact, women are discouraged from wearing the veil. The Hijab (which does NOT cover the face) is required. The veil itself is a cultural thing and has no religious significance.

In fact, the promotion of the Hijab is even in contention whether it is a social construct or it is religious. Because it is written in the Sunnah.

@macchia: almost everything you listed is culture specific.

It can be said that many cultures that are predominately Christian had and/or still have extremely archaic beliefs. These aren't a reflection of Christianity, but the culture that holds those beliefs.

 

[the_retro_fox]

As the poster above stated- the veil is not religiously needed

Like other parts of Middle-Eastern culture, people have blended the ideas into the main religion of Islam

Many Americans believe that Islam promotes hate towards other religions, and while it does frown apon other religions, it does not tell Muslims to brainwash children into killing Americans.

Just like any other religion, there are extremists which hurt the outlook on those who nonviolenlty practice their religion. (see Jesus camp for a scary look at Christian extremists)
Anyway, back to the veils, I'll use Afghanistan as an example
In older Afghanistan, many women did not wear a veil or anything of that nature. Eventually the Taliban came to power and insisted on the veil and the poor treatment. The culture became so used to these extremist views that even after the Taliban left, women are still behind veils and Burkas. The only way for a culture to change its views in a quick manner would be through force, as shown by the Taliban. Because the men in the culture enjoyed the power they recieved from the whole wear the veil/treat our women like sh*t system, they dont want the change. And the 14 year old girls forced to marry a 44 year old men are to scared to change. Not wearing the veil in modern Afghanistan is like dressing like a complete slut in America- you are highly frowned apon but are allowed to do so. The only way to stop the veils and Burkas would be by force, and that just isn't right.


Oh, I am Christian by the way

 

[lunarhiro2002]

Veils represent an unwanted danger to people. As men could easily dress in a burka and veil then either kill someone or blow themselves up.

Making acceptions to peoples religions is a dangerous game...once you allow one group to do something in the name of religion (not talking about the veil here so dont reply based on that) then you cannot stop someone else from another religion from using the same argument.

I'm pretty sure in Israel they don't allow veils on the women...but no out cry there...I think the whole veil thing is just the current flavor for the news to make an issue out of it.

 

[Minkoff]

Veils represent an unwanted danger to people. As men could easily dress in a burka and veil then either kill someone or blow themselves up.

This isn't unique to veils at all.

The whole idea of veils makes me feel a little sick, but then so do lots of religious and outdated cultural traditions. Unless someone is trying to encroach on your rights or safety, you're in no position to try to argue. And if you think veils make you any less safe, you should start thinking based on logic, not fear.

 

[macchia]

Its not exactly completely counterproductive either, though, so the woman has a point. If she feels she needs to do something and it does negatively effect the children, and she's not allowed to, her rights are beng violated. I mean, a silver cross gleaming sunlight into one's eye would actually be detrimental to someone possibly but if they were forced to remove it from around a teacher's neck, there'd be rallies around the nation.

 

[Crystalgate]

Its not exactly completely counterproductive either, though, so the woman has a point. If she feels she needs to do something and it does negatively effect the children, and she's not allowed to, her rights are beng violated.

Seriously, the way you have worded your post implies that forbidding her from killing children would be a violation of her rights as long as she feels she needs to do it. What a person feels has to be done is irrelevant to the question of wheter or not it's his or her right. Even ignoring that, rights do not mean you're always entitled perform a certain action. They aren't "you can do this no matter what" rules. For example, you may think that expressing your political stance would be within your rights and I would agree to that, but if you insist to express your political stance in a classrom during math lessons and thus disrupts others people's attempt to learn math then the school is perfectly entitled to suspend you. This also brings us to the point that schools do not necessarily need to respect rights the same way the congress has to.

 

[Mr.Mo]

As far as I know about it, woman need to cover their body and hair, not face. They don't need veil to do this either. My grandma, aunt and mom(who only covers herself in preyer) does fine just with normal clothing. I guess its a cultural thing. I can't find anywhere in quran that tells you to wear specific clothing to cover yourself. It does however say to cover your body. Also Hijab like FzGhoul said is what is specificly required to wear. It is not a blanket, its just cover the hair like a hat :p.

btw, woman covering theirself is not to demote theirselves is Islam :-/. The Quran says that women should wear the hijab so that they can be recognized (as Muslim women) and then no one would bother flirting or annoying them. But in todays society woman basicly throw theirself at you, and most woman don't care about it, but thats a whole another debate.

To add to this, if a woman has a right to walk around half naked, why can't she walk around clothed?

I understand it makes cultural interaction harder, and I don't have a problem with them banning the Veil. But some European countries also want to ban the Hijab, which is ridiculus. It does nothing but act like a hat.

 

[Lord_Warhammer]

I think The Quran says that women should wear the hijab to suppress them.

 

[macchia]

Heh, a fun typo. I meant "doesnt" not "does" in refference to the children. So save your rants thanks.