The validity of the Jesus VS Paganism

[Wolfgang]

No-one should have faith in religion and no-one should care when or who was the first religion around.

In your opinion, which is most likely based off an atheist point of view. We are not looking for comments on whether or not religion is valid or even worth having faith in. Can people not read the first post?

 

[Surmuck]

The validity of the Jesus rumbo...

The topic title in itself makes this a discussion of the validity of religion, whether it be paganism or Christianity - it's still the heart of this thread. Plus this is Symposium, so people will morph the subject matter into pretty much whatever they want anyway.

 

[Energy]

So, I pose another question.
Is it bad to believe in a god? Is it a bad thing to be morally good for the sake of going to a heaven that may or may not be real? I don't see a problem with religions providing a way for people to have hope, and I think it's become a trend to cut at religion for giving what may be false hope.

It is not bad to believe in a god, and be morally good for the sake of going to a heaven that might not exist. It is bad to FEAR your god (because fear is not fun), and it is not good to force your beliefs, be biased towards, or otherwise use your religion against other people. Keep it to yourself. Informing or introducing your religion to other poepl is fine, as long as you don't force it.
Of course, this is only my opinion. (Me being a hell-bound atheist. :|)

 

[Junk-Man]

Christianity does not go back 10,000 years. At most, it goes back 2,000 years. Constantine was a Roman emporor who converted to christianity. One thing that Christianity taught--in his mind--was unity, discipline and respect. The empire was fallinig apart and he thought that christianity, a religion that worships one god will help unify the crumbling empire. He made Christianity the official religion of the empire after hundreds of years of persecution. It was this act that made Christianity popular in the western world and made paganism unpopular.

 

[Xaixis]

But then again the religion Wicca itself is a reincarnation of a combination of all these pagan religions, founded around the 1950s. So TECHNICALLY, Wicca itself is a very new "religion" thus not having much recognition, plus having periods of time fearing witch-faring doesn't help.

Actually the pegan movement started in the early 1800s (Victorian Era). What we see now as modern Tarot decks were created in 1810 in France by Alphonse Louis Constant, better known as Eliphas Levi. The Gospel of Witches was written in 1899 as well. So... modern Peganism is atleast two hundred years old. Kinda a long time to be concidered a cult. Moreover, it is only a modern expression of the oldest religion of mankind, having adjusted with technology and our understanding of the universe.

I already said that the roots of paganism go back probably farther then any other religion. But Wicca itself. The actual formation of Wicca (such as when that started using that name, which is what I meant when I said technically) isn't that old at all.

My apologies for misinterpretation.

 

[DragonZX]

In essence, almost all, if not all, religions are the same, or atleast, they revolve around the same ideals and general beliefs. That's how I see it. I'm agnostic, by the way. I have no quarrel with any religions, other than that religion is one of the largest causes of war. But there are lots of other factors in war, so meh. I believe that a religion with more physical proof is much more viable, than one without. I have a friend who is Wiccan, and we've had this debate before. I've asked him many times to present me with proof that the religion has existed longer than 50-60 years, and he has not. So, if you do have some sort of way of proof, I'd be much more than glad to read it. I like to research interesting things, and this is interesting, in my opinion.

 

[Wolfgang]

DragonZX :: Well, if you would like proof, look no futher then the christian bible. "And Czear said that all the world should be taxed..." Is definite proof that the roman empire exsisted. "Pharaoh let my people go!" Is definite proof that the egyptian empire exsisted. Peganism (Wicca) is founded on those (and other) polythestic cultures. So unless you slept through history class, there is plenty of proof.

 

[Venetia]

um ... just look up "early pagan artifacts", etc. on google. or, go to almost any museum. there you go. evidence of its existence.

is this even a debate anymore?

 

[DragonZX]

DragonZX :: Well, if you would like proof, look no futher then the christian bible. "And Czear said that all the world should be taxed..." Is definite proof that the roman empire exsisted. "Pharaoh let my people go!" Is definite proof that the egyptian empire exsisted. Peganism (Wicca) is founded on those (and other) polythestic cultures. So unless you slept through history class, there is plenty of proof.

The closes religion that I can think of that Wicca is founded on would be Druidism in Celtic culture. Paganism is not Wicca, Wicca is Paganistic(yes, I made up a word).

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially an adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity.
2. A Neo-Pagan.
3. Offensive
1. One who has no religion.
2. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.

So that would classify every multi-god(dess) religion to be pagan. Just clarifying your statement.

What I was asking was where is the written history on Wicca. All I've ever heard of it was that they(Wiccans) claimed that it rooted back pre-Christian(which would explain it being founded on pre-Christian beliefs, so thats cool beans in my books), but I could go and "create" a religion and base it off of Buddhism, and call it my own, saying it was old, etc. Doesn't mean it is. I guess I just haven't been shown proof so I find it hard that it has existed for a long time. Paganism has been around for thousands of years, from what I know, Wicca has been around for 50 (give or take).

PS. Not trying to be offensive, so apologizing in advance if I was in any way.

 

[Wolfgang]

DragonZX :: Don't worry, you're not being offensive. But you have a good point, Modern Wicca has only been around for about 250 years publicly. Before that there were all sorts of witch hunting due to the suddenly popular influence of the Christian relgion, which give us proof of it's exsistance throughout the uprising of Christianity.
The way I like to look at it is this, Rome was one of the greatest pagan empires ever. (No offence old dead Pharaohs, but Rome owned your asses) And the first Czear was around about 40 something BC. Of course Rome was around alot longer then that, but this helps to serve my point. Jesus was born, his 12 desciples make his works into a religon (whether they were doing gods work or not, I leave up to you) and people of the world take to this new Jewish founded religion. As the christians got control of things, pagans were not as popular. We went from being the rule to being the exception. Hiding persecution, we went unnamed for a long time. Only recently had laws passed in england that protected our rights to our beliefs, so we were able to come out into the open and be nammed yet again. So, what you see as a new on the spot religion is something that has been around for a long time. This is no different then the Christians in their start... they weren't very popular, staying under the thumb of Rome for a very long time. They had a man who could do great things and they decided to re-establish themselves under a new name. ...just not all the jews were converted over because the rules had changed.

 

[boon]

If you look closely at Egyptian history; you'll find that there was a Pharoah called Akhenaten who banned worship of all other gods; the Sun Disk 'Aten'. A lot of people try to bridge this to the one 'true' god, in which christianity is based and thats some people's claim for the beleif in christianity.

EDIT this ties in with the topic of christian Roots, btw.

 

[Xaixis]

If you look closely at Egyptian history; you'll find that there was a Pharoah called Akhenaten who banned worship of all other gods; the Sun Disk 'Aten'. A lot of people try to bridge this to the one 'true' god, in which christianity is based and thats some people's claim for the belief in Christianity.

EDIT this ties in with the topic of christian Roots, btw.

Haha I remember learning about that in the 7th grade (a little sketchy, but I remember the topic). The egyptians hated Akhenaten because they did not wish to change their religion views, so once Akhenaten died, the old priests and priestesses used Ak's son (who was 12 I belive) by instructing him about their religion which is why this period of time was not very well know. They pretty much changed everything back to normal once Ak died (or was he murdered?).

I also remember that when ever they had carvings of him and drawings, they always had him with a pot belly instead of looking heroic like in which they did for most other pharaohs. Or at least something like that, correct me if I'm remembering wrong.

 

[Incognitus]

If you look closely at Egyptian history; you'll find that there was a Pharoah called Akhenaten who banned worship of all other gods; the Sun Disk 'Aten'. A lot of people try to bridge this to the one 'true' god, in which christianity is based and thats some people's claim for the belief in Christianity.

EDIT this ties in with the topic of christian Roots, btw.

Much of what has since been discovered about Akhenaten - he was made an unperson by Ancient Egyptian standards for his heretical beliefs - seems to back up the thesis that Akhenaten was the basis of one of the most famous Jewish Patriachs.

Consider that classic name attributed to many Pharaohs of the Sun-King, "Ramesses". Well, we know that the root (meaning "born of" or merely just "king") is usually attached to a title, like in this case, the Sun-God. Well... according to what we know about Akhenaten, his followers decided not to give him a title... So he was just "Messes", or as it has been found in some places, "Moses".

^ But then I might be confusing the above with Osarseph's story.



But anyway, the jury is still out - mainly because everyone is trying to reconcile their beliefs, the "orthodox history" and the facts on the ground as they come up.

 

[Gulch666]

watch the first 3rd of Zeitgeist it has a lot of interesting information, showing all the similarities between all religions and pointing out that they are all pretty much based on the same thing, astronomy. every new religion that someone makes up is basically a bastardized version of the ones that came before it, and all of them are based off of the first basic, well i guess its not even a religion, its more of people observing the way seasons work and how the stars and sun move

 

[nikki]

In a similar vein, attempting to relate a throughly modern nature-worshipping cult, assembled from bits and pieces throughout the nineteen-sixties from old mythology with a modern eco twist to the idea of a ten thousand year-old 'religious' movement is just to invite ridicule (mine  )

What he said. Equating a trendy hippie "religion" with whatever beliefs the druids might have had is silly. They had no written records to pass on the practices of their faith. And most likely, it involved some sort of human sacrifice. So yeah, call yourself a wiccan if you want to but dont pretend you are following some ancient religion.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[nikki]

Well, being a wiccan has nothing to do with being a hippy @_@ also it's been around a lot longer than the 60's.

Sure it does, just not the typical tye-die sort of hippie. Sort of a mix between a goth and a hippie. The whole "commune with nature" thing sounds pretty hippie-ish to me. And I cant help but think of clove cigarettes and midnight orgies when wiccans are involved. Again, sort of hippie-ish.

Sorry if I offend but I think as a religion its pretty phony. Like anton levey's so called "satanism" which he dreamed up in the 60's and had little to do with satan.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Kodi Hammon]

I'm Norse Pagan and I think that if I'm correct the Juddism was around before Chirsianity and I'm pretty sure since Paganism is having Goddesses and Gods and loving Nature....

Both "pagan" and "heathen" have historically been used as a pejorative by adherents of monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
But if you Look Paganism is literly EVERYWHERE whether your talking about Africa or Europes Celtic Savages. Celts use to be Savage and were Cannibles in Rituals, England has not always been the Tea sipping Civalized people they are today. And when I mean Celtic I do not mean only Scottland and Ireland, If you think Whale or England do not count as Celtic your bloody idiot. IF it is in the UK its Celtic...Period

And this topic has been Quite interesting :grin: gave me something to think about

 

[Zelfouz]

And why wouldn't age make a religion more valid? If religion is a way man explains the origin of the world, wouldn't it make more sense that the older the explination is, the more valid it would be? Meerly by closer proximity to the time in which man begun? Perhaps not... but why?

This is stupid. Our knowledge and understanding of the universe has been improving more or less steadily with time. Are you suggesting that explanations some peasants invented long before we even realized the Earth went around the Sun are more valid than a more recent explanation based on direct or indirect observation?

Christianity and Paganism seem equally unlikely to me because both were invented by people who didn't know anything about how the universe operated in a time before anyone knew anything about how the universe operated. (which is not to say we know everything, but we certainly have a clearer picture now)