Envision, Create, Share

Welcome to HBGames, a leading amateur game development forum and Discord server. All are welcome, and amongst our ranks you will find experts in their field from all aspects of video game design and development.

The validity of the Jesus VS Paganism

Status
Not open for further replies.
I was recently told by a classmate at my college that Christianity is more valid then my faith. I am a Pagan, a Wicca, a witch. My friend was trying to say that his faith had roots that started long before mine... to which I gave a blank stare. Even if you account for the start of the Jewish roots of Christianity, it only goes as far back as 10,000 years ago or so... whereas Pagan roots start with the earliest hunter gatherer societies at the dawn of man, about 200,000 years ago.

I'm not looking for a debate on which religion is right or makes more sense... but as to, historically, which is more well founded. Which has been around for a longer period of time? If there are any other religions that have been around for a very long time, please bring them forward into the discussion.

Also, do you think that if a religion has been around longer, does that give it some form of validity or make it eligible to be seen as a recognized religion rather then a cult following?
 
i'm pretty sure the ancient egyptian ra/osiris/pharoahs etc. stuff outdates paganism.
i don't really see why it matters, tho. age doesn't validate spiritual beliefs imo.
 
Cruelty :: No, Egyptians were an advanced society. Peganism has it's roots in the hunter gather humans who just figured out that the sun and moon move across the sky... which predates the egyptians by atleast a hundred thousand years. And why wouldn't age make a religion more valid? If religion is a way man explains the origin of the world, wouldn't it make more sense that the older the explination is, the more valid it would be? Meerly by closer proximity to the time in which man begun? Perhaps not... but why?
 
Closer proximity might make it better BUT humans first existed millions of years after the world was created so both are too far out for that to be a measure of reliability.
 
Wolfgang":qal05od5 said:
I was recently told by a classmate at my college that Christianity is more valid then my faith. I am a Pagan, a Wicca, a witch. My friend was trying to say that his faith had roots that started long before mine... to which I gave a blank stare. Even if you account for the start of the Jewish roots of Christianity, it only goes as far back as 10,000 years ago or so... whereas Pagan roots start with the earliest hunter gatherer societies at the dawn of man, about 200,000 years ago.

I'm not looking for a debate on which religion is right or makes more sense... but as to, historically, which is more well founded. Which has been around for a longer period of time? If there are any other religions that have been around for a very long time, please bring them forward into the discussion.

Also, do you think that if a religion has been around longer, does that give it some form of validity or make it eligible to be seen as a recognized religion rather then a cult following?

Actually Judaism could probably only be taken back to the Babylonic Talmud before it becomes something else entirely. In fact the Babylonic Talmud is sort of the nexus around which everything else coalesced including what we would call modern Judaism (most shades of Orthodox and Reform) and the only place the Babylonic Talmud is given serious consideration or application is in religious paramilitary schools in the "Occupied Territories" and at Stormfront.

In a similar vein, attempting to relate a throughly modern nature-worshipping cult, assembled from bits and pieces throughout the nineteen-sixties from old mythology with a modern eco twist to the idea of a ten thousand year-old 'religious' movement is just to invite ridicule (mine  )



Neither the duration or popularity of an opinion or idea have any relation to it's veracity.
 

___

Sponsor

Generic 'paganism' in the sense of nature worship or animism has probably been around as long as mankind has had imagination, but interestingly enough there are biblical references to the yule tide ritual dating back to the old testament:

The BIBLE said:
"“Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move notâ€
 
Nphyx :: Thank you for that interesting insight... I didn't realize the Christians hold proof of such things within their own religious/historical text. I will have to tell him about that next time I see him.
 
Why would age determine anything?
I mean, if you're basing your beliefs off age, why don't we still use wooden dolls to ward away evil spirits from people suffering from fevers?

For all you know, a new Jesus could have been born, lived, and died, all 50 years ago. But maybe no one noticed or cared or believed it, since it hadn't been transcribed 2000 years ago by some asshole in the stupid ages.

Paganist beliefs were largely based off the weather, the changing of the seasons, and natural effects. Christianity adopted a lot of those beliefs, and shunned the contradictory ones. Then a bunch of people over the course of the last 2000+ years adopted THOSE beliefs even further, making innumerous "sects" of Christianity. And that's ONLY Christianity, that's not counting Shinto or Buddhism or Hindu, or any of the other religions with tenants dating in the early days of civilization.

Hell, there're probably more than a few very unknown religions that even pre-date paganism. In fact, there most assuredly are--I don't even have to know about them. The first religion probably was embraced by the first group of people in history to have some sort of physical or verbal communication.

Believe whatever you want to believe, just don't base it off the amount of time that's passed since its conception and your own.
 

___

Sponsor

Incognitus":1bunei7w said:
In a similar vein, attempting to relate a throughly modern nature-worshipping cult, assembled from bits and pieces throughout the nineteen-sixties from old mythology with a modern eco twist to the idea of a ten thousand year-old 'religious' movement is just to invite ridicule (mine  )
This is sort of fair, but not as much as in other religions. One of the characteristics of paganism throughout the ages is that it's loosely structured, oriented toward local and personal practices, so it's really not at all abnormal to be adding to and changing it within modern contexts.  I still find paganism sort of silly personally but I could say that about just about any spiritual practice; still within the framework of paganism, modern Wicca, etc. is not all that wacky. Check out modern Hoodoo/Voodoo for comparison, they also have adapted pretty old and long-established tribal spiritualism with lots of modern decoration. It would be different if it was, say, a resurrection of an old Egyptian mystery cult or the Greek or Roman pantheon but with things changed around willy-nilly at the whims of the new priesthood. Paganism has never really been dead like those religions, either - just suppressed, ever-changing, and sometimes masked with acceptable social norms. It's a secret religion anyway, in the sense that most aspects of it are not supposed to be related to non-believers, so it's hard for one of us, standing outside, to really have any modern or historic context.
 
No religions have ANY validity whatsoever.

They all claim, on some level, to deal with the ORIGINS OF THE UNIVERSE but go back far enough in history and there will be a point in time when those religions didn't exist at all. So I don't see how they can possibly be an authority on the universe's creation when they weren't around while it was happening.
 
People can believe things, or come to believe things long before they form an actual organized religion. As far as I know, there's not a religion out there that claims they were around and brought together as an official church/whatever at the time of the universe being created. Of course if you go back far enough these religions didn't exist; it takes a long, long time before people can come together like that - whether their just making shit up or not.
 
While it is true that no religion goes back far enough to be "the relgion" or anything resembling it, that was not my point. My friend had claimed his was more valid due to age and I was asking for proof of which religion had further reaching roots.
 

___

Sponsor

Surmuck":96r2p4em said:
People can believe things, or come to believe things long before they form an actual organized religion. As far as I know, there's not a religion out there that claims they were around and brought together as an official church/whatever at the time of the universe being created. Of course if you go back far enough these religions didn't exist; it takes a long, long time before people can come together like that - whether their just making shit up or not.
Actually Judaism does in some sense, and therefore the religions branching from it - Christianity, Mormonism (and other Christian offshoots), and for these purposes Islam. Although God's laws and an official form of practice aren't really codified until after the Exodus story, the book of Genesis clearly demonstrates worship and sacrifice to the Hebrew God along the same lines as in later practice dating to the supposed beginning of time.
 
I am Catholic. Raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, and went to church often.

But... I after reading and thinking a little outside what I was taught I realized that my religion might not be as valid or as "real" as it is thought to be. I see religion as more of a control mechanism to create a "moral" society. Think about it, what would be the best way to control people when you physically can't? If you tell people that there is a superior being above the clouds that will spite you for doing anything wrong. That way people will naturally want to be moral, it will give them consequence. If you get away with something, you will pay later.

Now I'm not saying I don't believe. But I don't quite believe all that the Catholicism tells me. Personally I doubt that there was a man named Jesus you actually did all the things he did, but rather than a group of people decided to tell people these ideas to create a revolution. But then again this could be faulty because it makes you wonder why these people would risk what they risked to spread this message.

So really I don't know what to believe. I doubt something but agree with other. I think that the church needs to lighten up some topics because some just seem absolutely ridiculous. So... I dunno. Maybe I'm going through a phase, or maybe I'm finally becoming an atheist... once again I don't know.

But as to your question, I think that it could go either way. But then again my opinion is extremely biased due to my raising. But Wicca is a very interesting religion/cult/w/e. Yes, pagan religions were one of the first religions known to man-kind, no question. Ever since man had intelectual thought it was likely that the first religions-like thought would be, "hey look at that red object in the sky, it chases away all the bad predators, it must be something extremely powerful and holy" or something along the lines. But then again the religion Wicca itself is a reincarnation of a combination of all these pagan religions, founded around the 1950s. So TECHNICALLY, Wicca itself is a very new "religion" thus not having much recognition, plus having periods of time fearing witch-faring doesn't help. So with it's more recent uprising, Wicca itself is a cult, mainly because it hasn't been around long enough. But Wicca's roots are in fact very real, and very very old. But with lack of time and national support... it's still a cult, and it would be unlikely that any new religions would pop up at all within the next... era... or so, lol. So don't feel left out.

Also as a side question, in Wicca do members actually participate in "magic:? Or believe that it's real or just have symbolic rituals and what-not. On the discovery channel or something that had a story about a women who consumed herself in wicca and almost like killed her son or something with the ghosts and spirits she summoned... or something like that. I personally didn't believe that it was remotely true, but I want to know from an insider.

(Haha Wall O' Text, sorry!)
 

Injury

Awesome Bro

I'm personally tired of religion. Nothing good has come out of it except war, a little moral guidance to tell you it's ok, your doing it for (insert god here).

Paganism has been used for a lot longer than ANY christian faith, obviously. I doubt that it matters what religion you choose, or how old it is...the important fact is rather the moral obligations each religion sets for it's worshipers.

Pagans aren't spell casters, they are ritualists who more or less observe forces of nature as a guiding light to their paths. Past lifes are a part of Paganism, and many still practice it today. Wicca isn't that young, and it's not even important if it's a cult or not, they don't do anything cult like, sacrifices of bodies on alters, etc. To answer your question Xaixis, no, they don't. It's all ritual and belief in natural forces that exist around us. It seems lame, but it's easier than having to be good all the time!

I'm not pagan, but my mothers and sisters are, as well as their friends. In all my experience with it, it's not even so much religion as people getting together to perform rituals and rites together, eating food, drinking and enjoying each others company. It can even be fun, drums circles and shit like that, or sad, someone feels negative energy that they want to talk about.

IMO, Paganism has more validity than Christianity, but no religion is worth killing over, but we seem to disprove that every day we live.

Jesus isn't real, it's just like santa only for adults who are scared to die. "be good or santa won't give you gifts!" "Be good and donate lots or (insert diety/ies here) won't let you into heaven/nirvana/val halla/etc."

that's how it looks to me anyways...opinions?
 
Injury":2gxmh7t3 said:
Jesus isn't real, it's just like santa only for adults who are scared to die.

Any explination humans come up with usually is closely related to thier fear of death. Paradox therories, religions, movies like the 6th day (cloning) and the prestige (again, making human copies for a magic trick), all are based on the human fear of death. In paradox therories, people tend to think they universe will send them back to their time if you go back and create a seperate timeline. (Back to the Future when the girl was left on her porch in the bad present timeline) Religions tell people that they are believing in the one true way to get into eternal life. And movies with cloning or human copying, people tend to want to believe that if the original body dies, somehow their memories or soul will pass on to the new body. -chuckles- Sad scared little people. I find it quite amusing.

Xaixis":2gxmh7t3 said:
But then again the religion Wicca itself is a reincarnation of a combination of all these pagan religions, founded around the 1950s. So TECHNICALLY, Wicca itself is a very new "religion" thus not having much recognition, plus having periods of time fearing witch-faring doesn't help.

Actually the pegan movement started in the early 1800s (Victorian Era). What we see now as modern Tarot decks were created in 1810 in France by Alphonse Louis Constant, better known as Eliphas Levi. The Gospel of Witches was written in 1899 as well. So... modern Peganism is atleast two hundred years old. Kinda a long time to be concidered a cult. Moreover, it is only a modern expression of the oldest religion of mankind, having adjusted with technology and our understanding of the universe.
 
So, I pose another question.
Is it bad to believe in a god? Is it a bad thing to be morally good for the sake of going to a heaven that may or may not be real? I don't see a problem with religions providing a way for people to have hope, and I think it's become a trend to cut at religion for giving what may be false hope.

Coming from a very concentrated region of one religion (Utah, kids), generally everyone I know is of the same faith; and generally? Their good people, and a fair number of them supply their reason for doing the things they do relates in some ways to being a Mormon. I don't see a problem with that, if that's their reason to be good, fine by me. Everyone should find a reason to be a good person, if heaven is your reason - go ahead.
 

___

Sponsor

I don't think it's bad to *have* faith, but it's a very unfortunate circumstance since clearly so many people use the faith of others as an easy inroad to exploitation. In any case, consider the following:

Is it better to do things that are ethical because you believe they're ethical and have enough inner strength to choose what's right over a short term reward at another's expense? Or is it better to do what is right because you believe if you do it you go to magical candyland where all your dreams come true, whereas if you do wrong you go to some horrible place where you're tortured and debased for all eternity? Which of the two is more moral: person A who forgoes stealing a candy bar because he knows working hard for the dollar to buy the candy bar is good for him, good for the person he works for, and good for the candy bar salesman, or person B who forgoes stealing a candy bar not because he sees the natural good in working for it (or, often, even recognizes the concept of a 'natural good'), but because he's afraid of the consequences for his immortal soul?

Does religion really make people better? Conversely, does a lack of religion make people worse? Is there any proof of that, or is it just unsubstantiated base assumption? In my experience with religion, every single one of the dozens of churches I attended as a child and young adult were chock full of what I considered foul, selfish, self-righteous, and judgmental people, full of hate and fear. There were good people too, and I made some good and long-standing friends there, but it turns out they were the ones who held a little skepticism and weren't the type to jump on the moralizing, self-righteous bandwagon.

Conversely in my experience outside the church I meet a lot of people who are generally kind, open-minded, accepting, giving, and caring. True, without the carrot and stick of religion they sometimes have poor judgment when it comes to personal choices, but they were no more likely (and I argue less likely) to hate, exclude, or look down on others. In my personal experience with people of criminal nature (mainly drug dealers and petty thieves) they have all had a religious background and a strong belief in God; they just though they were already irrevocably doomed to Hell, and since that was the only consequence in their mind why not live it up while they have the chance.

Based on that and other studies and observations, I believe religion only serves to reinforce the ignorant position that there are no practical consequences to good or bad behavior in real life, that morality exists outside the natural realm, and that ones obligations in terms of behavior are owed to some deity or supernatural soul and not to his fellow man; that a rational understanding of the world and why ethical behavior is ultimately good for everybody is pointless, erroneous, or in some cases even amoral, and that ones obligations to religious authority trump general ethical practices.

Consider also: statistical analysis has shown the divorce rate is higher amongst people who frequently attend church than among the general population. Child molestation statistics, in terms of number accused, number of victims per pedophile, and duration of abuse per victim is higher amongst religious people (particularly catholic priests and fundamentalist groups such as FLDS) than among the general population, possibly up to 4x higher. On general crime rates:

I find no statistically significant relationship
between religious adherence and property crime or violent crime. There is
some evidence that religion may encourage crime in areas with greater population
or few religious adherents.
*from Does Religion Really Reduce Crime?

While there is a large amount of controversy on the subject, even studies suggesting that religiosity reduces crime shows differences that are barely statistically significant. If having a church in the neighborhood could reduce crime by .5% in exchange for increasing intolerance and fracturing the community along religious lines I think I'd rather have another burglary or two (even of my own stuff!).

Of course there's more to quality of life than how often you're subjected to crime. Unfortunately, religious people seem to be more likely to reject new technologies and medicines that may increase comfort and leisure in their lives (case in point, the Amish and Jehova's Witnesses respectively). While many studies show a correlation between religious attendance and life expectancy, many of the same studies show that regular exercise has a stronger positive impact at a lower cost (cost of equipment and memberships vs. religious contributions), and other emerging studies suggest that regular participation in any social group has similar benefits.

There's more to quality of life than longevity in any case, and religion in its natural state, whether you choose to accept or reject it, is likely to have long-term consequences on your life. If you choose to be religious, the constant dissonance between your faith and apparent fact seems to me to lead to some strange and often warped ideas. Conversely, in many cultures rejection of the prevalent religion or membership in an oppositional religion can result in rejection, reduction in personal and business opportunities, or even harassment, imprisonment or death.

So, in short, believing in God, that's fine by me. Having faith in things that you can't prove to exist, also fine by me. Being good for the sake of faith rather than for its own sake? To me, not so good, but better than being evil. Building a religion around those ideas though? Not likely to have a net positive effect on you or the society subject to it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Thank you for viewing

HBGames is a leading amateur video game development forum and Discord server open to all ability levels. Feel free to have a nosey around!

Discord

Join our growing and active Discord server to discuss all aspects of game making in a relaxed environment. Join Us

Content

  • Our Games
  • Games in Development
  • Emoji by Twemoji.
    Top