Should employers be allowed to require you to be bilingual to be hired?

[thelivingphoenix]

With more and more people immigrating into the United States, should the people who move here have to learn basic English to be able to stay here?  I know that it's hard to obtain the resources to learn English in some other countries before they get here, so learning after they're allowed into the country via state-sponsored English classes should work, but should we be catering to people who don't want to be bothered with learning English?

Think about all the extra money we're spending having to put Spanish and stuff on all these things and employers that will only hire someone if they're bilingual (thus, creating a rise in unemployment because not everyone knows more than one language).  There are a number of places that I could get a job at right now because I have the skills to do it, but they will not hire me because I can't speak Spanish.  Why should people who move here be allowed to disrupt things in this way simply because they don't want to learn English?  Not hiring someone based on the number of languages they speak should be considered discrimination. 

Discuss.

 

[Samboy]

Depends whether the job they're applying for is associated with people. If you're doing a stock job, or something not consumer related, you'd only really need a limited amount of conversation skills. However, if you're working a receptionist/phone service, YES. I can't stand talking to someone who can't speak English when sorting out my Internet connection, or other troublesome service.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Yes employers have the right to decide if they want to hire you based on your skills and abilities.

 

[thelivingphoenix]

But, that's just it, in the United States, employers aren't able to hire whoever they want to based on their skills and abilities.  If you have more than 15 employees, a certain percentage of those employees have to, by law, be female or a minority.  Skills and abilities don't matter to Uncle Sam.  "Affirmative action" does.

Now, this seems to be somewhat of a double standard, to me.  If I was an employer, I could be forced to hire someone who was black and may not have the same amount of skill as a white person (for example) who applied for the same job simply because I have to fill a "quota" of black employees in my company.  Since I'm a partner in a start-up company, we're going to circumvent this by hiring only independent contractors to do work for us; we will have no employees simply because we don't want to be restricted in who we do and do not hire to work with us.  If one person has the skills for a job and is not a minority, I shouldn't have to hire the person in the minority group that doesn't have the same level of skill simply because they are a minority.  I shouldn't be required to have to hire them because of their preferred status.  Any business with 15 or more employees is required to participate in affirmative action.

Now, why is it fair for the government to force an employer to hire someone who is a minority that may not have the same amount of skill as a white person applying for the same job and not fair to force an employer to hire someone someone who doesn't speak another language in addition to English? 

What I'm saying is, I don't believe the government shouldn't allow employers to encourage the idea that immigrants don't have to learn English to live in the United States because it creates a loss of jobs for people who were born here and only speak English.  If you speak Spanish and English and get the job over me because the fact that you know Spanish is a plus, that's fine, but I don't believe that I should be automatically be excluded from being considered for the job (as long as I fit the other job requirements) because I don't know Spanish.  In most instances, an additional language should be a plus, not a requirement.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

But, that's just it, in the United States, employers aren't able to hire whoever they want to based on their skills and abilities.  If you have more than 15 employees, a certain percentage of those employees have to, by law, be female or a minority.  Skills and abilities don't matter to Uncle Sam.  "Affirmative action" does.

But you still get to hire based on skills and abilities don't you?

If I'm black, can I walk into a Law Firm looking for a lawyer, and I'm the only black guy in the entire white office to apply for the job, and my only experience is watching Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law or Law and Order... do you honestly think I'm getting the job?

What I'm saying is, I don't believe the government shouldn't allow employers to encourage the idea that immigrants don't have to learn English to live in the United States because it creates a loss of jobs for people who were born here and only speak English.

What?
Look up the official language of the US.  There isn't one.  There's no reason to not allow thousands of businesses only hiring for one language.  You know how many butchers here ask if you know Italian or Russian - you can only get a job if you know those languages.  Why?  Because that's the client.

There is no official language of the US, since it's set to be the language of the people.  Since the people are different region to region, you would exclude a huge populous doing certain things.  For example setting up only allowing Spanish in school, when in certain areas you'd get further locally speaking French, Italian, or whatever.

Both the US and England have no official language.  In 100 years we could all be speaking Farsi.  All our signs in Farsi.  English is like taking German in high school.  Who takes German?  Everyone takes Spanish or French.  And it will be all perfectly legit and acceptable for a reason.

In most instances, an additional language should be a plus, not a requirement.

Perhaps where you live.

If you work the police department you should speak at least some Spanish where I am.  It's almost idiotic if you don't.  If you work in the butchers, as mentioned earlier, it's very difficult not to know some Italian or Russian (and when I say butcher - I mean a real butcher, not a deli with a butcher sign).
It's not "mandatory" by law, but there's no law to exclude it - and there's no reason there should be.

 

[Calibre]

Both the US and England have no official language.

Do you not mean the United Kingdom there?  The official language of England is English, there is no official language of the UK because it isn't a country.  The Welsh speak Welsh and English, the Irish can speak gaelic and English, some of the surrounding islands speak French I think, but England speaks English and immigrants have to learn English and pass some really easy cultural exam.

 

[serrated_colon]

Both the US and England have no official language.

Do you not mean the United Kingdom there?  The official language of England is English, there is no official language of the UK because it isn't a country.  The Welsh speak Welsh and English, the Irish can speak gaelic and English, some of the surrounding islands speak French I think, but England speaks English and immigrants have to learn English and pass some really easy cultural exam.

if you can consider ireland a part of the UK :D

But, that's just it, in the United States, employers aren't able to hire whoever they want to based on their skills and abilities.  If you have more than 15 employees, a certain percentage of those employees have to, by law, be female or a minority.  Skills and abilities don't matter to Uncle Sam.  "Affirmative action" does.

Now, this seems to be somewhat of a double standard, to me.  If I was an employer, I could be forced to hire someone who was black and may not have the same amount of skill as a white person (for example) who applied for the same job simply because I have to fill a "quota" of black employees in my company.  Since I'm a partner in a start-up company, we're going to circumvent this by hiring only independent contractors to do work for us; we will have no employees simply because we don't want to be restricted in who we do and do not hire to work with us.  If one person has the skills for a job and is not a minority, I shouldn't have to hire the person in the minority group that doesn't have the same level of skill simply because they are a minority.  I shouldn't be required to have to hire them because of their preferred status.  Any business with 15 or more employees is required to participate in affirmative action.

Now, why is it fair for the government to force an employer to hire someone who is a minority that may not have the same amount of skill as a white person applying for the same job and not fair to force an employer to hire someone someone who doesn't speak another language in addition to English? 

What I'm saying is, I don't believe the government shouldn't allow employers to encourage the idea that immigrants don't have to learn English to live in the United States because it creates a loss of jobs for people who were born here and only speak English.  If you speak Spanish and English and get the job over me because the fact that you know Spanish is a plus, that's fine, but I don't believe that I should be automatically be excluded from being considered for the job (as long as I fit the other job requirements) because I don't know Spanish.  In most instances, an additional language should be a plus, not a requirement.

What?
You are making out that the employers decide more on FILLING QUOTAS then skills? Is the US really like this, because I don't think they would pick unqualified people over the better man, no matter what their colour is!
Back on topic though, it really depends on the job + area. If you are going to be like, an assistant at a supermarket than the more languages the better, but if you are living in a predominantly spanish area - the requirement for the job should be the ability to speak spanish.
The thing about this discussion is because there are so many situations that need to be considered, and it should really be a CASE-BY-CASE basis in my opinion.

 

[Venetia]

Businesses should be allowed to have whatever requirements they like, as long as it doesn't infringe on discrimination based on sex, race, creed, medical status, or if they are elderly.

If an employer requires certain skills to fulfill the needs of its clientele, they are more than within their rights to find the right people with the requirements and skills which will fill their business needs.

Period.

It doesn't matter if the national language is English or Portuguese or Magical Polka-Dot. If a considerable number of Spanish-speakers make up your business's profit margins, you are within reason to staff people who can cater to them effectively (i.e., bilingual employees).

Many employers are getting around this hurdle by offering free or reduced-price language classes, by the way, they're not all firing people who are not bilingual. It's not cost-effective to train a new person over simply offering classes to an already-trained employee.

 

[Calibre]

if you can consider ireland a part of the UK :D

Yeah... Northern Ireland... as for which part speaks what language I don't know cause they all speak English anyway.  That and the fact I'm an obnoxious hypocrite.

 

[rexxzecutioner]

Yes employers have the right to decide if they want to hire you based on your skills and abilities.

Honestly, this is the end of the thread. There's no other way to expand upon this because ultimately, the employers will have final say in deciding if they think you are right for the job.

 

[___]

But, that's just it, in the United States, employers aren't able to hire whoever they want to based on their skills and abilities.  If you have more than 15 employees, a certain percentage of those employees have to, by law, be female or a minority.  Skills and abilities don't matter to Uncle Sam.  "Affirmative action" does.

No.  Just no.  People seriously need to start understanding that affirmative action doesn't exist.  There is no law anywhere that says you have to hire minorities or women; it simply says you cannot refuse to hire a person because he or she is female or a minority.  There are tax breaks for people who meet certain requirements to show that their employee spread and hiring policies reflect the ethnic distribution in their communities, but this is not a legal requirement, it's an incentive.

As for the rest of it, yes employers should be allowed to pose any non-discriminatory requirements they like.  If they say you must be able to drink while standing on your head in order to get the job, they can do that.

 

[thelivingphoenix]

English isn't the official language of the United States on paper, but the majority of the society speaks it natively, most road signs are only in English (and we shouldn't spend extra money making them in other languages), and you have to be able to read, write, and speak basic English to become a citizen.  I just don't think we should go out of our way to cater to people who refuse to learn English when they come here.  It creates too many problems (such as a loss of jobs for people who only speak one language) and there's really no reason not to learn when there are free classes basically everywhere.  Not only that, but a significant portion of those people who don't want to learn English to stay here are illegal immigrants.  Not all are, but I'd say a decent majority.  And the ones who aren't illegal don't have a reason not to learn, unless they're mentally challenged.  Why cater to people who don't want to learn the main language spoken in the US?  Other countries don't cater to us when we go to their country and don't speak their language, for the most part.  In a lot of other countries, if you don't speak the local language, you're just out of luck, because they care more about making sure that people that already live there have jobs and aren't going to put someone out of work just to cater to a fat American that doesn't want to learn enough of the local language to get around.  If you want to live here, learn enough English to get by.

And yes, if the government believes you're discriminating against minorities because you have too many (or all) white employees, they can and will shut you down, especially if you're trying to obtain government contracts.  Nphyx, businesses with more than 15 employees have to have an affirmative action plan if they try to obtain a government contract and I'm not sure whether it still applies to companies that don't have a contract with the government or not, but it used to.  And if you're taken to court on the grounds that you have too many white employees, the judge can make a quota system mandatory for you as punishment.  Large companies that have affirmative action plans written up by law (and there are a lot of them) aren't going to hire someone unqualified for the job, but if they see the number of white employees versus non-white employees or male vs. female employees rising, they have to balance it out by hiring someone who isn't white or is female.  That's just the way it is.  They do it to keep up with their plan so they don't get into trouble with the government; so, do people get hired simply to fill a quota?  Yes, they do.  They may not be unqualified for the job, but there might have been a white person who was more qualified that got snubbed for the sake of a quota.  If I was an employer and had to take part in affirmative action by law and I had a position to fill and I felt I was drawing attention to myself as an employer, I would fill that position with someone who wasn't white, whether they were as qualified for the job as I would like or not.  White people do get pushed aside for a job for the sake of filling a company's quota. 

 

[Venetia]

thelivingphoenix, visit a different country sometime. Like Japan. Or Italy. Or hell, Mexico.

It's the weirdest thing.

Around hotels and tourist centers ... Cabbies, bank tellers, and merchants ... Speak English as a second language!

I know, it's crazy, right? I mean, suuure, they get English-speaking clients like crazy, but ... It's not America/UK/Ireland/etc! So, what's up with that?!


---

Also, this debate is not about affirmative action? Affirmative action has nothing to do with bilingual policies in business?

 

[thelivingphoenix]

The reason I brought up affirmative action is because not hiring someone based on the fact that they don't speak Spanish or whatever language should be considered discrimination unless you're in an industry that specifically warrants it, like travel agents, the tourism industry, customer service, tech support, or law enforcement and the like.

I didn't say that they have to learn English fluently to come and visit the US, I said that they need to know enough to be able to get around when they get here or at least have a phrase book and that specifying that a person can speak a second language as a job requirement should be considered discrimination except in certain instances.  I was born and raised here, so why should I have to learn another language to get a job that I could otherwise do well just because of the huge influx of immigrants (legal and illegal) that don't want to learn English?  Illegal immigration is already a huge problem, so why let businesses cater to illegals any more than they already do by requiring employees to speak their language?  If someone wants to come over here illegally to better their lives, I don't blame them for that, but it pisses me off when they come here and don't have the decency to at least try to learn English.  And if you are here legally, there's no reason not to learn English because you live here and learning it is expected of you.

I don't have a problem with learning a basic amount of a local language in another country if I wanted to visit, but if I wanted to live there, I wouldn't expect them to change their hiring policies at local businesses just because I didn't know enough of their language.  It's on me to learn their language, not on them to have to learn mine.

 

[Sic Semper Tyranosaurus]

I was born and raised here, so why should I have to learn another language to get a job that I could otherwise do well just because of the huge influx of immigrants (legal and illegal) that don't want to learn English?

Good, so was I! My grandparents weren't, though. And you should earn their language because it makes your employer better money and makes you more desirable to people who are just visiting rather than THOSE DIRTY MEXXYKANS WHO'S TAKIN' ARE JARBS

Illegal immigration is already a huge problem, so why let businesses cater to illegals any more than they already do by requiring employees to speak their language?

Because it makes your employer more money if you can speak a language a customer is familiar with, not just one that they're still learning, you dim tart.

 

[thelivingphoenix]

Then, have a few employees designated to deal specifically with people who speak a certain language.  Create a separate position and pay them more for their bilingual services.  It should not be a requirement for a minimum wage (or even close to it) job.  Unless it's a job where a customer's basic understanding of English would simply not cut it, like customer support, etc., there shouldn't be any discrimination when it comes to language.  Unless you're hiring someone specifically to translate, it shouldn't be allowed, because it caters to people who aren't here legally.  If there's a second language spoken in an area, then have an employee designated to deal with those people who aren't good enough at English yet, but requiring the whole team to be bilingual is ridiculous. 

Black Teens Feel The 'Bilingual Preferred' Summer Job Blues

It is wrong to require an American citizen to be able to speak another language to get a job at a store like McDonald's, Jack in the Box, department stores, and etcetera.  It drives unemployment rates up for people who already live here.  Poor people who need those minimum wage jobs are being pushed out of them because they don't speak Spanish and while English as a second language classes are commonly free, Spanish classes typically aren't (and I KNOW Italian and Russian classes aren't), unless you're fortunate enough to find an employer willing to pay for you to learn or to train you on the job site itself.  My whole point is, it's making it harder and harder for the average person to find a job and learning Spanish or any other language in addition to English is typically hard to do and if you're already hurting for money enough to be trying to get a job at McDonald's, odds are good that you can't afford to pay to learn that second language that you need to get that minimum wage job.  Just how many requirements are people willing to accept these days in order to obtain a minimum wage job?

Like I said, I don't have a problem with them wanting to help me learn the other language if it would help with the job, but I shouldn't be excluded in most instances from getting a job that I would otherwise be able to perform skillfully just because I don't know a second language.  I don't want or need a job at McDonald's, but I would like to know that if I DID need to get one, that I wouldn't be discriminated against because I don't yet speak Spanish.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Do you not mean the United Kingdom there?  The official language of England is English

Then my mistake.  A common one too, as I often read or understand one thing but it gets spoiled in it's idle time in my brain.

and you have to be able to read, write, and speak basic English to become a citizen.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. - XIV Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

See that part where it states "All persons born or naturalized in the United States"?  I just proved your statement is void, and if you didn't catch that I'll explain it.  You can simply be born here.  Little Javier could be born in Nevada, and he can qualify for citizenship.

Phil, I just came home from his house.  He and his wife have a baby.  She isn't a US citizen?  She'll be 3 months old soon.  She doesn't speak any language.  Can she be deported?

I just don't think we should go out of our way to cater to people who refuse to learn English when they come here.  It creates too many problems (such as a loss of jobs for people who only speak one language) and there's really no reason not to learn when there are free classes basically everywhere.

First, the US doesn't have an official language - there's no reason they have to learn it.  Secondly,

there's really no reason not to learn when there are free classes basically everywhere

So then there's no reason you can't get a job if you don't speak Spanish.  Those are everywhere too.

Why cater to people who don't want to learn the main language spoken in the US?

Yeah, except that like mentioned before certain areas have regional differences - and not everyone born here speaks English.  I can get by speaking Hewbrew if I lived a few blocks down, and wouldn't need to speak any English.

Other countries don't cater to us when we go to their country and don't speak their language, for the most part.

Other countries dictate a religion, does that mean we should do?

If Canada jumped off the bridge, are you gonna too?

In a lot of other countries, if you don't speak the local language, you're just out of luck, because they care more about making sure that people that already live there have jobs and aren't going to put someone out of work just to cater to a fat American that doesn't want to learn enough of the local language to get around.

We don't cater to anyone, what we are doing is giving opportunity. 

If you want to live here, learn enough English to get by.

No one has yet stated WHY.  WHY should they?
Jobs?  Good.  Have fun proving that.

You can get work anywhere.  You can.  Just because one place is purposely hiring people with a certain skill, doesn't mean it's impossible.  Guess what, I might not get a job because I don't know how to drive a car - I'm not going to get all "discrimination!" on every place that needs a car.
I'm not.  I'm not.

I don't speak Chinese and when I go to a neighborhood with lots of Chinese I'm not all pissy if the guy at the counter of a Chinese eatery speaks in Chinese.  I'm not.

All you said is they're stupid for not wanting to learn two languages.  Umm... if someone's stupid for not wanting to do something, then someone across the fence would be stupid for the same reason.  If classes are everywhere for English, and everywhere for Spanish - then there's no reason one is stupid, and the other isn't.

It's not catering to anyone.

Would you hire, if you were responsible for doing so, a taxi driver who didn't know how to drive?  A lifeguard who didn't know CPR or how to swim?  If they knew how to swim, but didn't know CPR would you hire them?

I wouldn't run a restaurant and hire the cook who is allergic to eggs and can't touch the stuff.

Then, have a few employees designated to deal specifically with people who speak a certain language.  Create a separate position and pay them more for their bilingual services.

I want you to do that.

Go start a business and hire TWICE as many employers as you can.  And when you have to have overtime, make sure you get the guys who can speak more than one language to tag along to.  And then you can pay them ALL time and a half.

Great economics.

 

[thelivingphoenix]

People who aren't able to go and learn a second language are increasingly being cut off from the minimum wage jobs that they need to get by.  You can't justify people living in a society that speaks mainly English not being able to get a job because they can't speak Spanish.  It's about cutting young people or uneducated people (who can't get better paying employment) off from the only jobs they are qualified to do or WOULD be qualified to do were it not for a stupid bilingual requirement.  If I was 16 and needed a summer job and lived in a predominantly Hispanic area that wasn't predominantly Hispanic when my parents bought our house, what am I supposed to do for a summer job if everything in the area requires that I speak Spanish now?  If I had a relative that didn't have any other skills or wasn't able to learn another language due to disability, but they needed a job, would it be right to turn them down because they're not bilingual?  It's about denying either young people or "poor" people the minimum wage jobs that they need to get by with because they don't have the resources to be able to get work that pays much, if any, better. 

And whether you like it or not, it is catering to a select group of people that choose not to learn.  If an employer wanted to teach me the phrases I would need to be able to deal with people who want a burger at McDonald's, that's fine, I'll learn, but don't tell me I can't have the job just because I can't speak the Spanish (or whatever language) required at the time of applying. 

And unless you're a legal permanent resident, are 55 and have had your green card for 15 years or are 50 and have had your green card for 20 years, you have to take the citizenship test in English.  So, unless you want to wait a really long time, you have to take the test in English.

No, by the way, I haven't ever seen a free Spanish class anywhere that isn't online.

I didn't say anything about hiring TWICE as many employees.  A few that speak Spanish or Chinese or whatever fluently would suffice, but since a second language is supposed to be considered a PLUS and not a basic requirement for a minimum wage job, it should pay better than minimum wage.

And no, you can't "get work anywhere".  When was the last time YOU went out and looked for a job?  There're not everywhere and they're not easy to get, bucko, in case you haven't noticed.  Things may be good where you live, but they're shitty everywhere else and being denied a job because someone doesn't want to learn the main language spoken in the United States is fucking retarded unless they're hiring for a position which specifically requires the ability to translate.

Driving a vehicle is a skill that you're expected to learn as a means to survive anywhere in the modernized world.  It's universal.  It's not comparable.

Maybe when where you live is slowly overrun by immigrants (legal and illegal alike) who don't speak English and all the jobs at McDonald's and Jack in the Box and KFC and Payless and all these other stores start requiring you to be bilingual and nobody you know who doesn't have a college degree of some kind can find a job because they don't speak the immigrants' language, you'll understand what's going on.  It's hard enough for the lower class to find employment without creating an additional hurdle for them to jump over.  Knowing a second language shouldn't be a requirement to get a minimum wage job.  A job that pays more than minimum wage, sure, but I shouldn't have to speak Spanish before I'll be considered to work at the counter at McDonald's.  Period, dot, the end.

 

[mega_man_aXe]

Or you could just get off your lazy ass and go to college, earn a degree, get some experience in that field, and BOOM...no more whining.

 

[tensuke]

English is the standard language for the US. It's not the 'official' language, but it's pretty much the standard. So if you don't know English, and you're not actively learning it, and you're living here, get out. If I go to another country to live there, I'm going to learn it's language. I may be bad at it, for a long time, but as long as I'm learning it. If someone moves to America and they know little to no English, and they're not trying to learn it, they need to realise that no one wants to decipher their language with a dictionary. If it's a vacation, and you don't know the country's language, then that's okay(but it's nice to attempt learning).
Why should they learn English instead of just keeping with their native language? MOST Americans know English as their first language. In fact, a large majority do. Until some other language beats English as the country's most used first language, and by a large enough percentage, English it is.