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Roman Catholicism - Christian Church or cult?

I have been reading a few things recently. Many non-Catholic Christians don't consider Catholics as real Christians, more like a cult, for such reasons as that priests are only humans, and have no authority to forgive sins; and Catholics emphasize worship on the Virgin Mary too much, and ask her for salvation when she cannot give it, only Jesus can; and the fact that during the years of the Reformation, millions of Bible-believing Protestants were slaughtered at Rome's hand because they'd made the worst mistake ever, that is, they trusted that the Catholic Church had become Christian.

So, the history of the Catholic Church is quite sad - it started off well with the spreading of the gospel to Rome and the work of Paul and other Christians to spread the good news about Jesus, but then warped and disguised God's truth.

Now, being a Roman Catholic, I've always considered myself a Christian, and feel a bit upset by this propaganda. We do not pray or worship Mary or the Saints, we ask them to pray for us! There have many incidents, such as Henry VIII burning Catholics at the stake after his creation of the Church of England, and killing those who did not accept Anglicanism (for example, Thomas More), and in my own country, Ireland, where such laws such as the Penal Laws, and the battles between the Ulster Volunteer Force (Protestant) and the Irish Republican Army (Catholic). Anyway we could talk about church history for ever.

So, is Catholicism a cult - with our leader, the pope, who claims to be speaking the words of God, while in fact denying others even when they are right and stand on the Word of God? Are Catholics damned into hell, or saved into righteousness? Seeing as I know there are many people of different religions on this forum, I would be interested in hearing your views. (Hope it doesn't get too nasty. ;) Cheers.)
 
I find it interesting that the original christian church organisation would be called a cult, and the reformed version wouldn't. I think it's really pretty outrageous for anyone to call Catholocism a cult anyway - it's a mainstream religion.
 
Thank you for your unbiased opinion, I'd agree with you.
However, many evangelicals would class it as a "cult" because, as I previously stated, the pope claims to be speaking the God's Word but is in fact stating falsehood (in their opinions.)

Edit: also, in ancient Roman times many aspects of pagan worship were included into Christian tradition - such as priests, the altar, incense, worship of a 'Mother earth' type figure (in this case Mary) - thus creating the Catholic Church as we know it.The Bible was mostly read in Latin over the centuries (considered to be the 'Holy' language although the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek), meaning that the main population didn't have access to it - only the scholars who knew Latin, and then passed on the information to the people.
 
Catholic was the first christian sect.... so that's kinda.... wierd?

Anyway, many christian(in general, not just Catholic)(this also includes other religions) practices and beliefs are taken from pagan beliefs and practices. By trying to accuse Catholics of anything, the other Christians accuse themselves(not sure about the whole sex with little boys though... I don't keep up to date on this whole religion thing, so I wouldn't know about that).
 
I've been bothered by this, when I was younger. Going to several religious schools and often of different faiths at the time I didn't know where I belonged. Even during the whole rebelling thing with "spooky dark masses" (as my old math teacher called it) and stuff, I just didn't know what it all meant. But I asked a figure at a Lutheran school I once attended, about it. Since I was born and raised partially Catholic, and figured I'd ask. This was, pretty much, the answers I was given by this woman.

People take views and beliefs very seriously. You don't talk about politics at the dinner table. You don't talk religion at the dinner table. I forgot what the third thing you don't talk about is, sorry.

When it comes to these things, different views lead people to label others somehow "less than". If someone believes that no golden calves should exist, and equate the order of sainthood in the Catholic religion to that of a golden calf, then they will label that a wrong. And likewise, in reverse, those who believe in saints could label the other as wrong, or somehow missing a point.

It's like this. If I say something against the US, I can be told I'm not patriotic enough. If I have a different view in religion I could be called a heathen. Because of reformations, people who "moved on to better things" would view the earlier as somehow faulty. Just as the New Testament in some ways has been equated - by religious figures - as an improvement over the older Jewish practices and scriptures.

It's simply a case of taboo. With the "moving on" (that is how she said it, to make it easier to describe to me at the time), "they" felt they had achieved a higher order. And therefore, those below them could not be what they are. Therefore, they could not be Christians. They were -this I remember perfectly- "only Christian in a sense. That's where it came from. It's like saying Africans are only part human, because people spread out and changed as they went."
She was a funny teacher. She was like the rebel of the whole staff heh.
 
The problem that protestant christians have with catholics is simple. The large majority of the unique Catholic dogma is simply unscriptural. The bible never gives the catholic church, much less the pope, any authority. Scripture is the basis of the christian faith (ideally) and the greater part of how the catholic church sets itself apart is unscriptural.

Justification
The first point of contention is the issue of justification. Justification cannot be earned from a scriptural point of view. As Paul says in Galatians, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly" (2:21). We do not earn grace by trying to earn grace as the catholic church is wont to suggest. The catholic suggestion that we are merited grace by baptism is absurd. We can never merit grace. Merited grace is an oxymoron. Something being merited implies it is owed to us. Do you really want to suggest that God could owe you salvation for anything you could do? This teaching says we should not have peace in christ, instead of what Romans says: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (5:1)

Grace is a gift, not a right. You can never do enough to atone for your sins. Christ is the only way to heaven - not baptism, not indulgences, not the sacraments of the catholic church.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isa. 64:6)

Catholic doctrine, here, opposes scripture.

I don't trust in myself for salvation, I trust in Christ.

Transubstantiation

All I'm going to say here is that Jesus had a habit of using spiritual language. If we are to take his words "this is my blood" and "this is my body" literally, then so too must we take at face value his statements that he is also a vine, and he's made from bread. The last supper was also an event before the crucifixion, meaning that the sacrament is a symbol of... the last supper. How can the eucharist be representative of the crucifixion when it hadn't happened yet? Was the communion taken at the last supper also transubstantiated into his sacrficial body that hadn't been sacrificed yet?

What about the hypostatic union? If the flesh of Jesus was human flesh, how does is it magically teleported into the stomachs of millions of people everywhere, constantly? Jesus didn't defy the nature of flesh. This is in direct opposition to the humanity of Christ. Jesus cannot be present physically all over the world at once during mass, because the physical body of Jesus is a human body. The body of Christ, by nature of humanity, cannot be omnipresent.

Nowhere in scripture is it even implied that we must continually sacrifice Christ for salvation. Only one sacrifice was necessary. There is no biblical foundation for transubstantiation.

Indulgences
Absolutely counter Biblical, and a bit rediculous to boot. This process probably started as a method of exerting control during the peak of the catholic church, by forcing church members to rely on the church. I'm not going to defend this position, since it's a presumption on my part. Baseless, and dangerous. Indulgences are also worthless in the greater scheme of things, as the teaching of catholic purgatory is also unbiblical. We cannot cleanse ourselves of our sins, and neither can the church.

Indulgences cheapen the sacrifice of Christ.

Mary
Mary was great, yes. Mary was the most blessed of woman, yes. Mary was the mother of Jesus, fine.

Basically everything else is unbiblical, and is NOT even part of Catholic tradition! The immaculate conception originated in the mid-1800's, and the doctrine of the assumption of Mary is only 57 years old. The early church in Rome had no such veneration of Mary.

You may deny it, but Catholicism does teach to pray to Mary, the supposed mother of prayers. Now, as you said, these prayers are asking for her to mediate your salvation, but you are praying to her nonetheless. The Catholic church has, in fact, encouraged her worship (though did not teach it, itself), saying that she would lead people worshiping her to Christ. Mary is not the model of virtue, Jesus is.

Mary being blessed is not a justification to call her the queen of angels. Such titles and merits are clear inventions of the catholic church. The book of First Timothy clearly states that Christ is the only mediator between God and man (2:5). You can ask Mary to do it, but she can't - sorry.

Did Mary remain a virgin? No, she did not. It is mentioned in several verses that Jesus had siblings.
"Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?" (Mat. 13:55)
"Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You" (Mat. 12:47)

The list goes on. While it may be true that the words brother and sister used can mean cousin, however this is entirely dependant on context. The context, in nearly every case, it that of immediate family. His father, his mother, and his brothers. To interject "cousins" into this passage, when it is in clear opposition to context, is quite a leap. If the carpenter is Joseph, and Mary is his mother, Mary, why would it ever be appropriate to assume or even suggest that when it says brothers, it means cousins? Jesus also on more than one occasion directly identifies with the Messianic Psalm, Psalm 69. This Psalm that he identifies himself with states that the Messiah's mother has other sons. If you wish to further suggest that "Mother's sons" means cousins, then I must not grasp familial relations as well as I had thought.

After Jesus was born, Mary had sex with Joseph and had more children. The only thing in opposition to this is a Catholic doctrine that is less than 200 years old.

The only - yes, only - support for the sinlessness of Mary is the passage where Gabriel describes her as being "full of grace." This is taken to mean she was born without sin, never sinned, never had sex, and was assumed into heaven.

But, Acts 6:8 says that Stephan was full of grace as well, and he was a sinner... I guess the Bible must be wrong again!

Nevertheless, Gabriel addressing Mary as "full of Grace" is unique to the latin vulgate (The latine vulgate is a Greek-Latin translation of the bible from the 14th century, from which the roman catholic church derived their doctrine), which was a bit short of a being a perfect translation in this case. The Latin vulgate is the ONLY original-text translation I know of that refers to Mary as "full of grace". This is a mistranslation! Nearly every translation of the Bible now (which, I hope we can agree, are translated from earliest possible original-language texts) do NOT say "Hail, Mary, full of grace" in Luke 1:28. "Highly favored" and "greatly blessed" are more accurate translations. The Greek text says "kexaritomena" which means "highly favored" or "accepted". "Full of Grace" is "plaras karitos" in Greek. The assumption, virginity, and immaculate conception of Mary are based on a poor 400 year old translation which was wrong.

(Please note that modern Bible are, as I said, translated and corroborated by enormous groups of language experts, supported by tens of thousands of agreeing texts, and based on the earliest possible original language material, not translated and retranslated as some like to suggest. The Latin vulgate, however, was translated by a single man, and was less accurate. The modern translations of the Bible weren't based on the Latin Vulgate)

Papacy
Even the Papacy is based on poor exploration of the scripture. The Greek of Mathew 16:18, which is the basis of the Papacy, shows that Jesus was referring to HIMSELF as the rock upon which the church would be built, not Peter. Additionally, Peter was hardly a rock. Remember when he tried to walk on water? Peter's faith was far short of being immovable. Jesus called Peter "petros", and then said he would be his church on the "petra." Petros is always distringuished from Petra. Petros is used to refer to a small stone, and Petra is used to refer to an immovable mass of stone.

Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."

Peter is the stone (petros), Jesus is the rock (petra). So, if the church was not built in Peter, but on Christ, then what is the significance of the papacy?

No, seriously, what?

"For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ," (1 Cor. 3:11).

Popes are corruptable and fallible, just like anyone else. Only God is infallible.



So you see, the problem that protestants have is that Catholics refer to the Catholic church for the ultimate authority, while protestants appeal to the scripture. The catholic sacred tradition is often at complete odds with the scriptures that they claim affirm it. The Catholic church venerates individuals dangerously, and follows a man who has no scriptural authority.

(Please note as I have approached this topic that I believe that many Catholics are, in fact, saved - those that rely only on perfect attonement brought by the sacrifice of Christ. To deny the completeness of his sacrifice is to, I believe, deny salvation. Also note that while the apocrypha is part of this discussion, I won't approach it as I don't know enough to speak with any confidance, and it's far too complicated for me.)
 
Arc, whenever you post after me I somehow feel stupid and wrong... damn you... even when you are not correcting me.

At one time, however, more than just the Catholics had a Pope. However, Pope being, for some and at certain times, just another word for Bishop, this has confused me for years. The whole Black Pope (no - not Satanic Pope!) and the Eastern/Western Schism I've been told led a hand in it. I'm not sure how true that is, since I learned that in one of the two Catholic schools I've been in.
And as far as I've learned, when it comes to turmoil you can't always trust what's said by a specific faction, when they are speaking of why other factions have a negative (lack of a better word) feeling towards that faction.

Though, yeah, his (ATM's) points are more valid than mine.

EDIT: I meant that schism thing to be a question, as to the validity of the statement. Because I know very little of it, and haven't learned much other than a few articles attempting to be unbiased and down the middle (therefore just stating action/response not the motivations)
 
Arc, the "Ave Maria" says:
"Madre di Dio, prega per noi peccatori, adesso e nell'ora delle nostra morte."
or, in English, "Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and in the moment of our death"
The more it is said about Mary is:
"Il Signore ? con te, tu sei la benedetta fra le donne, e benedetto ? il frutto tuo Ges?".
"The Lord is with you, you are blessed among the women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus."

Without saying nothing about worshipping Mary...
 

ccoa

Member

Christian simply means follower of Christ, one who believes in his teachings. I am Christian in the sense that I think "love thy neighbor" is the best damn idea EVER, even though I don't follow any organized religon. Plenty of Christian religons don't follow the letter and verse of the New Testament (assuming it's even 100% clear what that is), so you can hardly dismiss Catholicism on that basis. You'd have to dismiss them all.
 
But when your practically foundational teachings contradict the Bible on nearly every point, people are going to take issue with it. I'm not claiming that other christians are perfect, rather trying to account for the attitudes the OP was speaking of.

I mean, unless I'm supposed to say, "Oh well, I guess we have to agree to disagree", this is all I have. Perhaps unfortunately, I believe there is a ultimate truth, and that the ultimate truth can be known - and Catholic dogma is not based on truth.
 

ccoa

Member

I wish you could see this from an outside perspective. Really, from the perspective of someone unaffiliated with religon, there is no practical difference between a Catholic, Baptist, or Protestant. Or even really between Jewish, Muslim, and Christian.

From that outside perspective, all monotheistic religons are essentially the same, and there's no possible reason for you guys to be disliking each other. Isn't God a forgiving God? Wouldn't you hope that if it turned out the religon you believed in and were raised in were wrong on a point or two, he'd forgive you? There is no way to be entirely sure your religon is right, after all, that's why faith is so important. Only Thomas the Doubter was granted proof. Everyone else has to make do and do the best they can. :)

At any rate, in my mind there is no doubt whatsoever that Catholics are Christians. Drawing offensive distinctions or flat-out telling a person their religon is wrong is how things got to this point with Muslims vs. Christians. Do you really want to push away Catholics until they hate all other Christians, as well?
 
Really, I don't care what outsiders think in this case. I'm responding to a Roman Catholic's question. This discussion is irrelevant to outside perspectives.

You have to understand that protestant christianity has what is referred to as the "essential doctrine", which is a VERY short list of things we believe to be essential to the Christian faith. We disagree on many things, but the majority of us believe that if someone does not believe in the following essential doctrines, they are not "christians".

The Diety of Christ - That Jesus was God in flesh.
Salvation by Grace - That Jesus attoned for all sin with his sacrifice, and that by faith and grace along are we saved.
The Resurrection - That Jesus rose from the dead.

Any other point of contention is, really, meaningless to me. We can bicker over the rapture, we can bicker over eating pork, we can bicker over thousands of things, but I believe, and the grater body of christianity believes, that those three things are the definition of christianity and salvation. Catholic dogma denies the second essential doctrine.

This isn't meant to be offensive. I mean, I could go ahead and let people practice what I believe to be dangerous and false, but I feel that would be irresponsible. If he is offended by what I'm saying, I do appologize, but I feel he needs to hear this. Christianity - even catholocism, claims to be based on the scripture. My point in all of this material is that if you are basing your salvation on something that is not in scripture, where is it coming from? The scripture gives no authority to the catholic church, just as it gives no authority to my church or anyone elses church.

Just because you can't tell the difference between monotheistic religions, doesn't mean there isn't one.
 

ccoa

Member

arcthemonkey;213949 said:
Salvation by Grace - That Jesus attoned for all sin with his sacrifice, and that by faith and grace along are we saved.

Uh, I was raised Catholic and I was taught that. There seems to have been a misunderstanding somewhere, probably through prejudice.
 
Maybe not all catholic churches teach that, but the process of Justification is part of Catholic dogma. You are the second person I've seen deny that, but then again, I've seen mormons deny that they teach that Jesus was Satan's brother.

Edit: I'll make sure to check my sources, just in case.
 

ccoa

Member

Yeah, but I'm not only not a Catholic, I think the whole thing is bunk (no offense to anyone, this is only my opinion). I have no reason to defend it.
 
Well. Okay. I suppose you are entitled to that. But, why is it that my opinion is offensive, and draws comparison to religious war, but yours is just fine? I mean, I don't mean to be snarky, but I'm pretty sure that's not fair. :D

(The acts I'm referring to being outside of salvation by grace are the Sacrament of Penance and baptism being required parts of salvation in Catholic Dogma. Basically, you are saved by grace, but only if you get baptized or confess (to the church) after every mortal sin.)
 
Well...in the end, the priest isn't the one who remove your sins. If you confess your sins, then you have to acknowledge that you get wrong. And so, GOD forgive you. Not the priest, GOD.
 

ccoa

Member

Mostly because agnostics and atheists never declare war on organized religons, whereas religons are infamous for butchering each other (literally and figuratively) over incredibly minor differences in opinion that have somehow grown to be hate. However, I'm not saying that you can't express your opinion, only that the churches in general should be more careful in their dealings with other religons. It wasn't intended as a "don't insult other people in this thread" comment so much as a "take a look at the world and maybe influence your Church to be a little more accepting" sort of comment.

It is true that in the older Catholic religon, one did need to be baptized (and later confirmed) to enter heaven. Unbaptized infants were believed to go to Purgatory, instead. However, this belief has been pretty universally (hah, pun!) rejected by the modern Catholic church (I don't believe that this has been an active part of the Catholic teachings since the early Rennaisance). Confession is also not required for salvation, although it is believed that you can be forgiven for your sins by repenting for them, and confession can be a part of that. However, if you die without ever confessing a single sin, one can still go to heaven.

I really don't see how that's incompatible with or negates salvation by Christ.
 
I am Catholic myself and I must say I contradict with these 2 of these 3 statements that make a Christian a Christian.

"The Diety of Christ - That Jesus was God in flesh."

I believe Jesus was the son of God, conceived by two mortals. I don't think God actually came in the flesh. I doubt that would make me any less christian, or Catholic in my case which is a branch of Christianity.


Salvation by Grace - That Jesus attoned for all sin with his sacrifice, and that by faith and grace along are we saved.

You must surrender yourself and accept that grace, in this way you are technically responsible for being forgiven. If you don't do anything, I don't think that the sin can be forgiven. Well it can, but not if you don't want to change.

The Resurrection - That Jesus rose from the dead.

That I believe.

Catholicism isn't perfect, but just because we contradict on a few points doesn't make us more or less good followers of Christ. That's like saying those who don't believe in Christ or God are going to Hell.

And ccoa is right, you don't need to confess to a priest to enter Heaven. Although it may help, God is essentially the only one who can forgive. The priest can give you guidance or help you with dealing with those problems, as your counselor. But I personally don't believe a priest can be the one forgiving you because mortals can forgive each other, however if the sin was against God, then that's who you are to confess to.
 

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The Diety of Christ - That Jesus was God in flesh.
Salvation by Grace - That Jesus attoned for all sin with his sacrifice, and that by faith and grace along are we saved.
The Resurrection - That Jesus rose from the dead.
I believe all three things are unknowable, yet that it shouldn't change a thing about how we should or should not behave. If your only reason for behaving the way you do is the hope of eternal reward and the fear of eternal damnation you are no more moral than the man motivated to evil by greed or physical threat, it seems to me. I don't claim to be Christian though.
 

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