Piracy

[Vadon]

Oh, I kind of doubt that adobe wants people to pirate photoshop. I bet they'd far rather folks actually pay for the software. I wouldn't be surprised if they turned a blind-eye to the piracy because of the name-recognition it brings, but I doubt they actually like not getting money from people using their product. Then again, it's just semantics at the point where they want piracy or just condone it. :smile:

 

[archerRin]

It's so easy to bypass the protection on adobe software unlike on vista/windows 7 where pirating it is a pain in the butt. OF course they would want you to buy it, but popularity is also important I guess, so they of course are turning an blind eye.

 

[Velocir_X]

Surprisingly its easier to pirate Photoshop CS4 Extended than it is to pirate RMXP, lol

 

[Mundane]

I have no moral issue with it, and don't consider it stealing. I've at one point had every major Adobe program just for the hell of it(found a good keygen with of all of them in it). I pirate things all the time. Wyatts argument about them not losing money is truly the only valid one, and the one I agree with most.

When my mom notices that I'm doing it she says, "Don't get us in trouble." :haha: Obviously, there's no crazy moral issue with it when my mom could give a fuck less.

 

[Brewmeister]

...But in the example I was talking about, I would only use photoshop if it was free.

That argument falls apart when you realize it's not "free". There is a big difference between "free" & "stolen". You're using the word "free" too literally. Yes, in your example you did acquire the software without paying for it, thus "free"??? I don't think so. "Stolen", indeed!

The argument that the author is not losing any money (suffering 'damages', to put it in legal terms) wouldn't hold up in court either. If you possess something that you acquired through illegal means, do you think a judge is going to care if, "you only took it because it was free?"

Gonzo, how about this example: You're almost finished with your big game project that you are going to sell commercially*. It's taken you over a year to produce, and you're on your final beta test. Me, being one of the beta testers decrypts your game, finishes it & posts it on every game site I can find, flooding the market & preventing you from selling a single copy (even your mother downloads it for free, as she apparently has no morals either.)
Is that ok? Is it moral? Is it legal?


* (reserved to rebut copious tangential arguments such as, "I'm not going to sell my game", "I'd give my mom a free copy" or "I haven't finished a project yet, what makes you think I'll finish this one")

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Ellie]

Gonzo, how about this example: You're almost finished with your big game project that you are going to sell commercially*. It's taken you over a year to produce, and you're on your final beta test. Me, being one of the beta testers decrypts your game, finishes it & posts it on every game site I can find, flooding the market & preventing you from selling a single copy (even your mother downloads it for free, as she apparently has no morals either.)
Is that ok? Is it moral? Is it legal?

That's a completely false analogy.

A better one would be "How would you feel if someone played your commercial game for free".

I don't see taking someone's project and distributing it yourself as moral at all, nor do I see actually cracking a game to change the contents as moral. Nor legal. It is a completely different matter.

 

[MCsephiroth13]

I honestly do think piracy is bad, as in it shoudn't be done and thwarts a comapny's attempt to making money on a product that they worked hard on (lol. Hard on.), but, being the broke son of a bitch that I am, I pirate things.

My slogan: "If it's for PC, I get it for free!" because literally everything that's for the computer has an illegal mirror.

I know. I'm awful.

 

[Mundane]

Gonzo, how about this example: You're almost finished with your big game project that you are going to sell commercially*. It's taken you over a year to produce, and you're on your final beta test. Me, being one of the beta testers decrypts your game, finishes it & posts it on every game site I can find, flooding the market & preventing you from selling a single copy (even your mother downloads it for free, as she apparently has no morals either.)
Is that ok? Is it moral? Is it legal?

That's a completely false analogy.

A better one would be "How would you feel if someone played your commercial game for free".

I don't see taking someone's project and distributing it yourself as moral at all, nor do I see actually cracking a game to change the contents as moral. Nor legal. It is a completely different matter.

Yeah, that's true. If anything the companies should be trying(and they are in most circumstances) to protect it more from the individuals who are cracking them. Those are the ones are indeed breaking the law, because most EULAs sate that the user cannot reverse engineer the product.

 

[NexS]

Yeah, that's true. If anything the companies should be trying(and they are in most circumstances) to protect it more from the individuals who are cracking them. Those are the ones are indeed breaking the law, because most EULAs sate that the user cannot reverse engineer the product.

That's true, but in most cases I would expect to see the end-user with a pirated copy of a program be fined for using the program illegally more than I would expect to see the person who created the crack or keygen get fined. Purely because auditors go from site to site comparing licences with used copies of software.

But to be honest, those using the cracks are as equally to blame as the one's making them.



P.S. i'm with Venitia when i say i would never pay, as a personal user, 1000's of dollars to use a piece of software (ie: adobe creative suite etc.). but in a company situation, you'd be making money from the use of the software, so what they hey!

 

[clipnotdone]

I have a legitimate copy of XP sitting on my desk.

However, my pirated version not only works better; its also lighter and for some bizzar reason, windows update thinks its a legit copy (unlike the actual legit one; yes thats right. my legit copy of XP that has never been installed on another computer is flagged as pirated.)

That being said, if somebody wants me to buy their software. it should be BETTER than pirated versions.
Like with digital music, Im not going to go through the bullshit of removing the DRM (which is more illegal than downloading the songs anyway) just because you dont want them being torrented.

Actually, DRM is a great topic.
Why should the paying consumer suffer because of piracy?

You bought our song? AWESOME
ohbythewayyoucantusethatonanythingotherthanthecomputeryoudownloadeditfromandifmughtjsutrandomlyscrewupandblockyououtanyway.

And then there is bioshock.
Want to play our game?
Whats that you say? no internet connection?
DOHOHO, good luck with that.
Oh you need to reinstall?
Oh boy, arent you up shit creek without a paddle.

Meanwhile people with the cracked version dont put up with that stuff at all.

Hardly seems fair does it?

 

[Lazer Kirby]

Argument for pirating - it does let you test out the full game(yes I know this was mentioned) before you buy it. I've downloaded a whole ton of games that looked good, but were really crappy.So I might've saved tons of monee

 

[Mundane]

Yeah, like Prototype. I'm glad I pirated that game. :tongue: I also look at it like if I had the money to spend on these products I would. But I'm a 17 year old high school student, and a $1000 dollar program is WAY out of the question. I also can't settle for GIMP, because I taught myself Photoshop and I'm much more efficient with it. So, when every new version rolls around, I pirate it.

 

[Brewmeister]

Gonzo, how about this example: You're almost finished with your big game project that you are going to sell commercially*. It's taken you over a year to produce, and you're on your final beta test. Me, being one of the beta testers decrypts your game, finishes it & posts it on every game site I can find, flooding the market & preventing you from selling a single copy (even your mother downloads it for free, as she apparently has no morals either.)
Is that ok? Is it moral? Is it legal?

That's a completely false analogy.

A better one would be "How would you feel if someone played your commercial game for free".

I don't see taking someone's project and distributing it yourself as moral at all, nor do I see actually cracking a game to change the contents as moral. Nor legal. It is a completely different matter.

You didn't specify in the initial post that we were to only address the recipients of pirated software. The topic is: "Piracy: Yes or No?"
When in fact, the classical definition of "pirate", as applied to copyright infringement would typically apply to the hackers/crackers as much or more so than the end user.
So, the analogy is not that far off, it just doesn't focus on the specific subject you intended.

If I understand your last paragraph correctly, you're stating that it's not "ok" (moral or legal) to steal software and/or modify the software so it can be used without being licensed or payed for. But it is ok to possess & use that software as long as you weren't the one who cracked it.

For starters, you can't have one without the other. It's an economic relationship. Pirate -> User, Supply -> Demand
Somebody had to crack it in order for you to be able to download it.

"How would you feel if someone played your commercial game for free?"

Also not quite true to the argument. Perhaps better stated...

"How would you feel if hundreds of people played your commercial game for free?"

Yet still, are we asking how it would make the copyright owner feel, or whether it is right or wrong?
I just thought that changing the perspective would make it easier to see.

I think Arbi hit it on the head in IRC the other day. It's not because it's moral or legal that so many people do it,
it's that there is very little danger of being caught. Does that make it ok? I don't believe it does.
(If it was ok, it wouldn't be called "piracy".) :scruff:

 

[Ceroscuro]

I don't really buy the "I would buy it if I had the money" argument people are giving... I think it's more like "I like getting free stuff" which sounds perfectly reasonable, but say what you mean (I'm sure there are cases where it is the former, but I think it's more often the latter).

Argument for pirating - it does let you test out the full game(yes I know this was mentioned) before you buy it. I've downloaded a whole ton of games that looked good, but were really crappy.So I might've saved tons of monee

That's exactly the thing. You saving tons of money means tons of money the game developers aren't making. And while it would suck for you to pay for a game that you didn't like, the fact of the matter is that you played it, so you have to pay for it. I can't just own a car for five years, then it has a problem with the brakes and I say "nah, I'm not fully satisfied... I'm not going to pay for this."

What else wouldn't hold up in court, or at least it doesn't here, is the terms and conditions that authors put into it. They force you to agree to it otherwise you cannot use the program. You can only go into a contract if both parties are willing, otherwise it is not a true contract and doesn't mean anything

So does every other contract offering a service. If I am asking someone to do work on my house, they will say "agree to our contract, or we won't do the work." Just because you don't like the fact that they're giving you an all-or-nothing ultimatum doesn't mean you can just say you accept it to get what you want, then ignore their terms. However, that's not to say that some companies shouldn't improve their terms and conditions.

I also look at it like if I had the money to spend on these products I would. But I'm a 17 year old high school student, and a $1000 dollar program is WAY out of the question. I also can't settle for GIMP, because I taught myself Photoshop and I'm much more efficient with it. So, when every new version rolls around, I pirate it.

a) The versions aren't that different... why upgrade every version (this isn't even about piracy, I just honestly don't think it's worth it)
b) Photoshop is not $1000
c) As was said before, Photoshop isn't marketed to 17-year-old high school students
d) Your reasoning for using it seems to be "I learned Photoshop and now I don't feel like spending the effort to get good with GIMP" (fyi GIMP confuses the shit out of me)

That being said, if somebody wants me to buy their software. it should be BETTER than pirated versions.
Like with digital music, Im not going to go through the bullshit of removing the DRM (which is more illegal than downloading the songs anyway) just because you dont want them being torrented.

Actually, DRM is a great topic.
Why should the paying consumer suffer because of piracy?

You bought our song? AWESOME
ohbythewayyoucantusethatonanythingotherthanthecomputeryoudownloadeditfromandifmughtjsutrandomlyscrewupandblockyououtanyway.

And then there is bioshock.
Want to play our game?
Whats that you say? no internet connection?
DOHOHO, good luck with that.
Oh you need to reinstall?
Oh boy, arent you up shit creek without a paddle.

agree agree agree DRM is bull and it's completely not solving anything, just ends up making people less likely to actually buy your shit because they don't want to deal with the hassle. In terms of software (as music isn't actually software), I think this is more that companies need to respond more to support items. There are thousands of cases of even small things, like the BioShock thing you mentioned, or no-cd cracks for PC games that should be so easily implementable by the developer, but they're not implemented for whatever reason. I honestly think that in many big companies (to remain unnamed), they get a sense of complacency (or apathy) in that they know they're going to make a ton of money, whether they really strive to cater to the user or not. And to me, this is the EXACT kind of attitude that is going to end up having people pirate your shit, since they will just end up thinking the same thing.

 

[Vadon]

What else wouldn't hold up in court, or at least it doesn't here, is the terms and conditions that authors put into it. They force you to agree to it otherwise you cannot use the program. You can only go into a contract if both parties are willing, otherwise it is not a true contract and doesn't mean anything

So does every other contract offering a service. If I am asking someone to do work on my house, they will say "agree to our contract, or we won't do the work." Just because you don't like the fact that they're giving you an all-or-nothing ultimatum doesn't mean you can just say you accept it to get what you want, then ignore their terms. However, that's not to say that some companies shouldn't improve their terms and conditions.

To be fair, there is a difference between EULAs and other contracts. With a EULA, you've already purchased the software. You can't legally bind a person nearly as well to an agreement if they've already paid for the product/service before you present the contract to them. That being said, some things still hold their water in court like copyright infringement cases and piracy because those are illegal in their own right, not because they're no-nos in the EULA.

 

[Xaixis]

Arrrgg!

Yea I pirate stuff, I really don't care if I steal 10-20$ of a movie from millionaire actors.

I don't download a BUNCH of stuff, maybe like a few movies a month with the occasional program (if that, sometimes I don't download anything for a few months, depends on the occasion), but I tend to crack programs rather then download a whole thing.

I would never steal outside the computer though, even if its target or 7-11 because they use that money to pay the employees as well. But for me, I don't really mind stealing from rich people all that much and I agree with alot of the people here about DRM and stuff.

DRM has personally screwed me of 300$ of songs when my old pc crashed and I was unable to get them back. Since then, I have never bought music because of that. Also, when I used windows, I actually switched from legit xp, to pirate xp because the legit one was actually worse then the pirated one.


So call me a douche, jerk, ass, w/e I really don't care. I don't feel like wasting my hard earned money just to help buy company CEOs their 3rd yacht while they are screwing me with damn copyright laws.


[wait this isn't gana get me banned is it?]

 

[Twirly]

In switzerland download is legal but upload isn't btw.

 

[Xaixis]

In switzerland download is legal but upload isn't btw.

Yerp... don't they have a political group Pirate Byron or something?

Also despite all the arguments, I don't know of any movie or company folding/close due to pirating. I could be wrong, but I just haven't heard of any cases due to it.

 

[Twirly]

In switzerland download is legal but upload isn't btw.

Yerp... don't they have a political group Pirate Byron or something?

I tought Germany had one, not Switzerland.