Persecution

[FlippyD]

It's generally a bad idea to go off of other people's interpretation of any holy book. The entire reason the jihadist movement exists is that people didn't read the qu'ran for themselves and when the radicals said God wanted them to blow up America, they took their word for it. If you want any understanding of any religious subject that isn't 100% bullshit you're better off putting in the time to study the literature -- people always interpret these things in the way that best complements their world view, and some people have seriously crazy world views.

So, we let the wackos read the qu'ran and the bible themselves to find reasons to hate america, the jews, homosexuals?

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

[___]

Yeah, the trouble is it's hard for people who have been indoctrinated their whole lives to make their own valid personal interpretations even if they make a conscious effort to do so, because it'll be so heavily colored by what they have already been told to believe. For instance I have an incredibly hard time getting through to fundamentalist Christians the fact that the Bible wasn't really first assembled as a single text till hundreds of years after the death of Christ, or that it has gone through significant changes in terms of the choice of books it contains throughout history until its eventual standardization around the Renaissance. When your religious doctrine forces you to reject historical facts based on the testimony of the very people responsible for assembling the book you base your faith on it's hard to make a claim to an objective, independent interpretation. That's not even accounting for the huge variety of other doctrinal presuppositions that your average believer goes into a reading with.

 

[mawk]

The point here is that is people remove that one method of having themselves indoctrinated, that's a definite step to the good whether or not it stops terrorism entirely. Wackos would still read the qu'ran and think "oh, this here means that we have to kill a lot of americans and use their testicles to play golf!" but fewer people would be there listening like sheep to form an army for them. Having pre-existing understanding of whatever subject it is is that turns those jihadist leaders into the mostly ignored streetcorner doom prophets in downtown New York.

Anyway, we're getting besides the point. The point is, ixis, you just gotta read the material yourself, because you can never trust someone not to be crazy.

 

[FlippyD]

True, and it's easy to fall into that trap when you hear theories by someone else (even if they aren't crazy, they could be misinformed.) That said, I can't believe the terrorists threatening America today were all sitting around hearing some guy say "and then Mohammed said 'fuck America'," and they all went "ok!" It was a complex mixture of growing dissent in the middle-east involving ideological, economical and topographic problems. This made it easier for fundamentalists to fish for religious justification (and perhaps they were predisposed to such feelings beforehand.)

But back on point, my post was largely satirical and misinformed on purpose, and I hoped that the huge block of red text would kind of point that out. Then the quip about watching something on late-night TV on the Bible Channel. In reality I got it from some movie that I don't remember, but the fact is I'm not going "Here's some second-hand information on the Bible I'm totally pulling out of my ass and believe whole-heartedly."

You know I get ALL my theological facts from the word of God.

 

[Diaforetikos]

Have you guys heard of the new chips they have of keeping track of children when they get lost or kidnapped. Duracell had a commercial supporting it. Sounds harmless right, but there gonna open the borders to Canada and Mexico soon. (this part is all theory) When they do, they may want to keep track of people. So chips would in people would be the best way. It'll become law for children to have it in them from birth. Subtle things like that will be overlooked...

Also, I was watching the news (I'm too lazy to look up the facts so if someone wants to correct me, feel free) and they were talking about how our money situation is worse than black monday in 1987. I'm probably am wrong for listening to the news alone, but I'm too lazy to care.

Pretty much everything in Revelations is supposed to happen in the spiritual realm, not the natural. The spiritual realm is harder to grasp if you aren't a christian (no offense to non-believers). Not impossible to grasp, just harder. Not harder for everyone, just some people. I would get into the whole "Holy Spirit" thing, but that would be off topic and I don't think you guys would care. I'm so effin tired so my reply may be weird.

And why do people base their Christian belief on either the Old Testament rules or they overlook the whole point of the bible? I'm just generalizing, but still. All you need to know from the bible is that you should love everyone no matter what, even child molesters, show others God and teach people how to show others God, try not to sin (no ones perfect), and give. That is all. F the rest of it. The rest of it is only there for Christians to grow deeper in Christ. But do what ever, I could care less. I have no clue wtf I'm talkin aobut.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Have you guys heard of the new chips they have of keeping track of children when they get lost or kidnapped. Duracell had a commercial supporting it. Sounds harmless right, but there gonna open the borders to Canada and Mexico soon. (this part is all theory) When they do, they may want to keep track of people. So chips would in people would be the best way. It'll become law for children to have it in them from birth. Subtle things like that will be overlooked...

WHAT?!!  SUBTLE?!!
Real quick kid, no offense I do like you actually, but come outside that li'l box.  There's an entire world out here.  I'd love to introduce you to.  Have you ever seen a mother?  A real mother?  They get angry when the shot that's gonna cure their kid makes them cry, and will get defensive about everything - including taking a temperature.

I used to work at a doctors office, trust me.  Fucking with a mother's baby is like... wow no, it's... umm.. wait... it's like fucking with a mama bear's cub.  Okay, that's the only thing that comes close.  Screwing with a mom, is like screwing with a mom.  There's no analogy there, it's the top tier.

I may not have had a parent like that, and a lot of other people haven't, but even scum of the earth I know have.  More often than not, a mother will tear into someone for hurting their li'l baby for a good cause (doctor giving a shot), let alone a BAD CAUSE.

There is nothing "subtle" about implants.  You know how many people will fly for that one?
Go outside.  Ask 100 people "Would you let the government implant you with a tracking device?  Would you let the government implant your future child with a tracking device (or if they already had a kid, would you have let the government implant your child with a tracking device)? " When they both say NO turn around and say "Would you let the government implant a device, that they swore was not a tracking device?"
If you find one person that says yes - do me favor, hook me up with their phone numbers - I got a great deal if they wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

It will never.  Seriously.  IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN (in the US).
Maybe North Korea?  But the US?

That tracking device is purely optional, and has had a HUGE amount of backdraft.  Merely because it could help someone, is the only reason it's still around.  When the child grows up, they have to -by law- be notified of the implant if not already, and can opt to have it removed.  What 18 year old will go "Nah, keep it in".

There were also bracelets.  The GPS in phones, cars.  None of those are mandatory.  Why would this be?

I get angry if a cop follows me around the corner.  I will stop and turn and ask "What's wrong?"  I am not going to sit here and watch my kid be implanted, and I doubt I'm a minority.

Stop reading rehashes of the tossed out screenplay for 1984's remake.

Subtle?  I'm sorry I... that was a very surprising thing to see.

 

[Venetia]

Actually Sixty, the sad thing is, I know of a lot of people who'd do it in a heartbeat.

These implants, they wouldn't be marketed as tracking devices. They monitor heart rates, body temps, organ health, and even can run checks for cancerous cells. Microsoft recently (I mean like, 5 years ago I think?) implanted an entire family with a set of these chips because the family was real prone to a certain type of otherwise indetectable cancer.

Not only that, but they'd locate your child should they be kidnapped, or run away. They'd carry all the kid's personal information like their SSN, full name, and address, so when the authorities find them, they could be returned.

These things would be presented to the public as a great boon. And, to most people, they probably WOULD be a great benefit.

So you walk up to people and ask them, "If the government wanted to implant a chip into your newborn that monitored their vitals, checked for cancer, and made it so that your child could ALWAYS be found and returned to you, would you allow it?"

I GUARANTEE people'd say yes, because I did almost this exact cross-section in highschool. When I presented 100 different people with this question, something like 60% of them (this was like 7 years ago so it's hard to recall) felt positive about the idea.

I'm not saying that an apocalypse is coming, but I get easily paranoid about the loss of privacy in the name of security. Our privacy today is so diminished, even compared to only 20 years ago. It's not strange for anyone to foresee a point in the distant future at which our privacy will be greatly compromised to such a level. Will it happen in our lifetime? Hopefully not. But I wouldn't so easily brush it off.

 

[mawk]

Also, I was watching the news (I'm too lazy to look up the facts so if someone wants to correct me, feel free) and they were talking about how our money situation is worse than black monday in 1987. I'm probably am wrong for listening to the news alone, but I'm too lazy to care.

Despite the fact that in terms of percentage this whole thing is peashots compared to Black Monday and the surrounding events? The media has a bad track record of blowing everything out of proportion (especially if you watch Fox,) and so I really think you should avoid listening to the commentary at all because most of them care more about ratings than integrity of the press or whatever it is they're supposed to care about (and rarely do they know much on the subject, anyway, they're copcarchasers and weathermen who sometimes bring in "experts.")

Pretty much everything in Revelations is supposed to happen in the spiritual realm, not the natural. The spiritual realm is harder to grasp if you aren't a christian (no offense to non-believers).

   
It's the realm where the most powerful Yugioh cards were sealed away millenia ago.

 

[___]

Have you guys heard of the new chips they have of keeping track of children when they get lost or kidnapped. Duracell had a commercial supporting it. Sounds harmless right, but there gonna open the borders to Canada and Mexico soon. (this part is all theory) When they do, they may want to keep track of people. So chips would in people would be the best way. It'll become law for children to have it in them from birth. Subtle things like that will be overlooked...

There is no way that is happening any time soon. I don't know if you heard but in 2004 some fascists in congress managed to slip a national ID card bill under the radar by attaching it as pork to, I believe, the budget bill. The law required that states implement a universally accessible bar code, magnetic strip, or chip into driver's licenses that would connect to a national database as a step toward the national ID. The response to this has been overwhelmingly negative; several states, including my own, have flat out refused to comply and are facing federal sanctions. I can guarantee that the only reason there hasn't been total outrage over this is that the media isn't covering it better.

Point being: if people, and their representatives, won't even stand for a national driver's license database we're a hell of a long way off from implanting chips into babies. For one thing, that would be potentially dangerous to do to a baby for a variety of medical reasons. Furthermore, if you know anything about RFID and these little chips the conspiracy theorists and fundamentalists have been carrying on about in hushed tones, you understand that they are easy to destroy, disable, and reprogram. Even in some imaginary Orwellian nightmare where people bent over and let the government implant them with tracking chips it would be trivial to render them ineffective for anyone who didn't wish to have them.

Last but not least don't forget that in the Book of Revelation, people must voluntarily accept the mark of the beast. That doesn't jive with the theory that it will be forced on babies. When you hear a crazy idea, at the very least, you need to read what your own religious book has to say about it before you buy into it.

 

[Incognitus]

Despite the fact that in terms of percentage this whole thing is peashots compared to Black Monday and the surrounding events? The media has a bad track record of blowing everything out of proportion

No. Actually, it is far worse. And the response is even more embarrassing than the crisis.

I was opposed to Britain's bid for the 2012 Olympics because it's always been obvious that by then we'd be in a really bad recession/depression.

A new Bretton-Woods is basically newspeak for "Dump the dollar" - and you can bet that a new Bretton-Woods won't be as far in our [We the People] interests as the old one, as hidiously flawed as it was, was.

You can say it's been overblown, but there is a reason that a "C & R" report has been floating around Congress: It charts the two most likely courses that will come out of this. The letters stand for "Conflict" and "Revolution" respectively.

Ultimately we'll probably see a run on the Federal Reserve. Grab some popcorn - it will be fun!




I don't know what to think about the whole microchipped thing: we'd probably not have it under the existing system, but the way things are heading, I think we could see it... 2015 maybe?

I always thought that, in the Book of Revelation, people were accepting the "Mark of the Devil" because they had no choice - like they wouldn't be able to buy anything at Walmart without it. Or use their bank. Most people are so dependant on the whole "system", that they would, out of necessity. I read a short (biblically inspired, although not really that biblical) book once in which the population accepted microchipping as a way of life, and it's depiction of the amount of doublethinking that went into it was just chilling. And it had a very good portrait of those hundreds of Christians who brag that they will instantly be able to spot the anti-christ, and how they basically miss him entirely and become his greatest supporters.
I think it *is* possible: The UK National Registry that is being "proposed" (actually to be introduced by 2010, despite massive voter objections) is basically the most hidiously centralised database that has ever been proposed in history: the fact that it's on a piece of paper to be kept with you at all times, rather than your skin doesn't make anyone feel any more secure.

 

[___]

I always thought that, in the Book of Revelation, people were accepting the "Mark of the Devil" because they had no choice - like they wouldn't be able to buy anything at Walmart without it. Or use their bank. Most people are so dependant on the whole "system", that they would, out of necessity.

That's true, however the point is that there must be a choice. Righteous people who say no have to deal with persecution, but my point is that they have to choose to accept the mark, therefore according to the religious argument this is based on the idea that they're forcibly implanted in children is bunk.

 

[Diaforetikos]

They won't force them on children. Who would let that happen? It's just a milestone in a situation that could explode.

As for the book of Revelations talking about the mark, yea, not being able to buy crap and do stuff without it is in there. But the bible also talks about us being blind to sin. We won't know what it looks like. It may be the best thing ever, but we'll never know.

 

[___]

Shucks, I guess we're all screwed then. We don't know what's going to happen, we don't know when "the end" will come, we won't know how to interpret the signs. We're all gonna die! Just like we were... yesterday before we talked about this

 

[rey meustrus]

If there's any reason not to believe in Revelation, it's because Christ himself tried to convince us not to predict the apocalypse.  I think it's horribly un-Christian to sport a bumper sticker saying "In case of rapture, this car will be driverless."  Especially since the Rapture is NOT part of Revelation (even though most people who believe in it think it is--they never actually read the book).  It's a late 19th century interpretation by someone that most of mainstream Christianity considered crazy at the time.

 

[___]

Yeah Rapture would be a good topic to run sometime except that most people don't understand it and get most of their information on the "End Times" from the Left Behind series (which by the way as a fan of apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic fiction was very, very disappointing, Peretti writes much better end-times Christian fiction).

 

[FlippyD]

I think I'll start one as soon as I can think of some way to pose it as a debate.