Persecution

[Diaforetikos]

I haven't been on in a long time. Anyways, some of you are probably thinking, here we go with another religious based question, and all I can say is yup.

I don't know if you guys are aware, but as these next 10 years (more or less) go by, Christians are going to receive great persecution for their beliefs. These persecutions will be justified with death by beheading, jail, beatings, and laws against Christians.

This information is based on many prophets of Christianity. Mainly one man, David Wilkerson. He wrote a book called The Vision. In this book he describes what God showed him. I believe this to be true, but do you? Why or why not? Here is a wiki of David Wilkerson. Scroll down until you see the subtitle Prophetic Ministry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wilkerson

I believe it is true based on how the world is now compared to the Bible and to David's book. I hope the wiki gives enough information to base your comments.

 

[Dark_linis]

er... what if one isn't religious but live in a majorly christian country?


I forget who, but according to the aztecs or mayans, the world is going to end in four years anyway. Hey... unless these too things are connected.

That's a scary thought.

 

[Diaforetikos]

er... what if one isn't religious but live in a majorly christian country?

What do you mean by this question?

I heard about the Mayan calander, but I don't believe in that. It said 2012 is going to be the but I think God wouldn't make it that predictable. Jesus said he doesn't even know the date for the end of the world. God only knows. No one but him. That is if you believe in God.

Also, if they were connected it would have been mentioned in the Bible before hand. But like I said, its only if you believe in it.

 

[Zekallinos]

Unless the all the Christians being to lunch massive terrorist attacks I can't think of any reason why such thing would happen. I mean, it's not impossible, but why would it happen?

Reading the Prophetic Ministry...

He looks like a smart person, but it was sort of obvious that this over-consumption was going to lead to financial crisis. For all the "Filth content", it's not impossible if you follow the current trend. USA, I think, is rather severe on that, but in Europe nobody fusses over if you talk about "Filth". Same thing for pretty much all of his predictions. Time changes.

Although I do find the persecutions rather contradictory with flood and other disasters. During such period, isn't it then that people pray for safety?

 

[Ellie]

I am not Christian and frankly I find his vision insulting.

Homosexuality as a fucking sin?

Most of his vision is just blatantly what would be inevitable. He wrote his vision in 1973. He guessed that there would be a rise in tornadoes. Well done, he can follow charts. He guessed there'd be a common currency - well done, talks were already in place about the Euro. He guessed there would be an acceptance of homosexuality - well fucking done, people were already becoming more open and it's inevitable at some time there'd be some acceptance. He guessed sex would be shown on cable - well done again, cable just starting off, obviously sex would be shown on it, and obviously kids would watch it. He guessed kids would hate their parents - well done, they already did and always will.

Christians are going to receive great persecution for their beliefs. These persecutions will be justified with death by beheading, jail, beatings, and laws against Christians.

I don't believe this in the slightest. But if it came true, then it would just be turning around all such deeds Christians have done in the past.

 

[Venetia]

This is stupid. Christianity is the largest, most powerful, and most well-funded religion on the planet (esp. Catholicism). And you think that suddenly one day every non-devout-Christian's going to wake up and go, "You know what? It's Christian-stompin' time!"

Maybe in the Middle East, where they hate everyone, but not in any civilized world, friend. Believing this crap is nonsensical. It's like those poor saps who built a bomb shelter in preparation for the "Y2K bug". NOTHING HAPPENED.

Over the years, I can easily predict a an EXTREMELY slow-moving departure from heavy religious faith. Such is always the way in a more enlightened and knowledgeable society. Once you understand the "magic" behind "miracles", the root behind it all becomes less fantastic under scrutiny.

But I also foresee a great movement towards acceptance, accepting people for who they are and what they want. The history of humankind is wrought with persecution and bigotry. We're finally getting a chance to be free to be whoever we want to be. Why would you want to worry about that?

 

[moog]

What the fuck are you talking about? I dont mean to jump on the band wagon here, but Christians persecuted? Christianity isnt a obscure little religion, pal. I find it very odd that you just state this without looking at the facts. First, why in the world would they be perescuted for their beliefs?

Also David Wilkerson sounds like a dumbshit

 

[Rappu]

Well duh, of course Christians are getting more and more persecuted now that discriminating against gays, women and non-Christians is generally looked badly upon and in most western countries actually illegal. I mean, tolerance is all right but all those tolerance facists are really intolerant when they claim that those telling those soulless gays to get their evil spirits crushed by Healing Themselves to Become Whole Again are wrong, and that a hiring an atheist woman with the enormous curriculum vitae instead of the poor little Christian man who considers his assets enormous enough for the job is A-OK.

Oh, wait. Maybe this "persecution" isn't that bad after all. This isn't the fifties anymore, and I know I'm not going to give up my acquired freedoms to cater to some poor Christian who feels ~*persecuted*~ just because women can work and decide about pregnancy, gays aren't anymore locked up into jails (and are instead *gasp* considered as human beings who should have human rights as well), people don't have to belong to the church and evolution is being taught at schools instead of the ID/creationism santorum.

My apologies for the tone. This day hasn't been very good, and this was the straw that sent the metaphorical elephant to the ER.

 

[Venetia]

It's yet another apocalypse theory. When one theory starts sounding too far fetched, someone else comes along and comes up with some other more "believable" method for the world ending.

Hey, you know what? Even if the world ends tomorrow (and I've never grasped the "end" thing. How would it "end"? Would Earth magically implode or something?), does it really matter? It's not like you could stop it, even if it happened. You just have to mind your own shit and try to live your life. Worrying over the distant unknowns in the future is more frivolous than wasting time lamenting the past. Atleast you can LEARN from your past--what the hell will worry get you aside from grey hair and wrinkles?

 

[FlippyD]

• Linking to a Wikipedia article -8pts
• Discussing a doomsday vision from a christian fundamentalist (and, this is the third time I've heard this scenario in my lifetime) -3pts
• Giving people more reason to think christians are non-logical batshit idiots -20pts

That's -31pts on this thread. You're in "U'RappinBad" territory, I'd suggest stimulating debate with something not to magnetically wrong.

 

[arbiter]

;D

 

[bashful crobat]

Homosexuality IS a sin, it's what makes it so good.

 

[rey meustrus]

Some of the details of this 1973 vision were:

  1. "Worldwide recession caused by economic confusion"
         * "At most a few more fat flourishing years, and then an economic recession that's going to affect the life style of every wage-earner in the world. The world economists are going to be at loss to explain what's happening. It's going to start in Germany, spread to Japan and finally to the United States." Actually, it started in the US and spread to the rest of the world almost immediately.
         * There will be a move toward a worldwide, unified monetary system. The US dollar will be hit bad and it will take years for it to recover. That is to imply that the dollar is bad because there's a Euro.  No, the dollar sucks because the FED desperately tried to keep a recession from happening without caring about inflation.  And should we care about our own currency?  Why not adopt a world currency?  It would eliminate the job of money changing, which is in itself condemned by Jesus Christ (at least, it was when it's in the temple)
         * The only real security will be in real estate (until a somewhat later stage, at which point this apparent security will also disappear). This is blatantly wrong.  Real estate was the first to fall, and it brought everything down with it.
  2. "Nature having labor pains"
         * Environmentalists will come under heavy criticism. It would be nice if major religious figures seemed to care about the environment anyway.  Hell, it's probably pastors that criticize them the most.
         * There will be major earthquakes. If we only count the US (which we only ever count anyway) then no.  If we count everywhere else, there have always been major earthquakes.
         * There will be a major famine.
         * Floods, hurricanes and tornadoes will increase in frequency. This is absolutely right.
         * "A new kind of cosmic storm appearing as a raging fire in the sky leaving a kind of vapor trail." Um...what?
  3. "A flood of filth and a baptism of dirt in America" Not going to happen as long as Christians make up half of the population.
         * Topless women will appear on television, followed by full nudity.
         * Adult, X rated movies will be shown on cable television. Young people will gather at homes to watch this kind of material in groups.
         * Sex and the occult will be mixed.
         * There will be an acceptance of homosexuality, and the church will even say that it is a God-given gift.
  4. "Rebellion in the home"
         * "I see the new number one youth problem in America and the world as hatred towards parents." And this is their own damn fault--read other Symposium threads involving parents to figure out how horribly they treat their children.  Religious families especially try to dogmatize their children and end up destroying their relationships with them.
  5. "A persecution madness against truly Spirit filled Christians who love Jesus Christ" Not going to happen as long as Christians make up half of the population.[/b]
         * There will arise a world church consisting of a union between liberal ecumenical Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church, using Christ in name only. Here we go with the Catholic bashing...if you want my opinion, it's people like this that pollute the name of Christ. He comes along 2000 years later and declares all christian thought before him to be wrong, creating a new religion and persecuting the real Christians.
         * There will be a hate Christ movement.
         * There will be a spiritual awakening behind the Iron and Bamboo Curtains. These don't exist anymore.
  6. Others
         * There will be another wave of riots. Like what, the 60's?
         * There will be a fall in moral conduct. See the Morals thread in Symposium.
         * There will be a new drug that will be popular with teenagers that will break down resistance and will encourage sexual activity.
         * Homosexual and lesbian ministers will be ordained and this will be heralded as a new breed of pioneer. Not going to happen as long as Christians make up half of the population.
         * There will be nude dancing in church, but this will never be widespread. Maybe in your church.
         * There will be occult practices in churches. Maybe in your church. In this case I've actually seen occult practices in churches.  Only in "non-denominational" churches does this happen, where they're trying for a "broad-based appeal."

 

[Venetia]

lol @ his fears of nudity.

Guess what, kids? NUDITY ISN'T DIRTY. YOU ARE BORN WITHOUT CLOTHING. THERE IS NO "DRESS"/"TOGA" TREE THAT GROWS WITH WHICH WE CAN PLUCK SOME "DECENCY" FOR OURSELVES. GET OVER IT.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

This is stupid. Christianity is the largest, most powerful, and most well-funded religion on the planet (esp. Catholicism).

Hi Venny <3
Except that Christians make up 33%, and there's still 77% of religions out there.

Religions don't play 1 on 1 like in an old boxing match, they street fight and you get several branches playing together.  If ALL of Christianity (which will never happened) got into some major war with ALL of Hinduism and Islam, Christians are out numbered.
When a group went after another group, they tend to get help.  Often this can come from a third group.  Three faiths, two sides.






Problem is, sadly, any religion CAN be persecuted.  Just because it's a or "the" "MAJOR" religion doesn't mean it can't.
Look at Bhuddism in Tibet.  It's THE RELIGION and look at the prosecution.
Look at Africa, where you can have 12 tribes of hundreds with one faith being persecuted by an amount of soldiers who number 10% of that.
Look at the Inuit people in the early days.  ALL of the Native Americans.  The nations of tribes with one faith that had numbers that rivaled all the white men in the new world, and still - persecution.

It CAN be persecuted (and in parts of the world it REALLY IS - so don't say "it can't" considering it actually is already).  The problem is these are small pockets.  You get tiny little chunks of area, where there's very few Christians - and it plays like any religion when you have small numbers and a bit of hate.

In the US?
This book was written in the 70's.  A time when a lot of people were turning to alternate faiths, and a large religious push was made in North America.  We're talking about hippys from the 60's still being a memory, some still being around.   The drug induced 70's image coming in.  An area of "sin" and "hate", it's very easy to see how someone can get confused.  We've had THOUSANDS of these "prophecies", and none of them have come true.  Except the media jumps to show a Christian fault - don't say they don't, they do.
Proof?  A rabbi raped someone 3 months ago, 3 weeks before that a Catholic priest was arrested for child molestation (which was showing of pornographic material, and showing himself - not actual contact, compared to the rape) - guess who was on the front cover the day the rabbi was arrested, which was 3 weeks after the priest.  That's right.  The Catholic.

Because we LOVE our stories, and Catholicism has become such an easy target.
They went around going "WE'RE BETTER THAN YOU" to the point it pissed everyone else off.  Because they were, world wide, bigger than everyone.  More Christians than anyone else.  And when you have the largest numbers, your going to have the largest hate - unless your the ones the largest guys hate.

I had a valid point or two in there, but I rambled and lost it :\

 

[mawk]

I like the Islamic doom prophecies better.

Honestly speaking, I don't have a lot to say that hasn't been said already (but I love the sound of my own keyboard so I'll try my best.) I'm very opposed to people declaring themselves prophets in this day and age (religious reason being that Mohammed was supposedly the last prophet, secular reason that makes up 99% of my opinion being that JESUS CHRIST WHAT AN EGO HE HAS!,) and honestly I think that this fellow is just a self-important fuck, so I'm going to ignore him as much as I can.

As for the actual "stompin' Christians" scenario, I can see it happening, but I think it's much more probable that it won't. At all. I find the entire situation just a little bit idealized -- If religious tension reaches such a climax that the Western world is tearing Christians out of their homes and beating them with sticks, I doubt the violence and hatred would be so one-sided; for things to reach that level, there would have to have been a lot of prior ass-kicking between the religions, and in this final doomsday scenario I think it'd be just as likely to find Hindus being beat on by Christians as vice versa. There is no realistic reason that Islam would suddenly nudge Hinduism and say "hey, wanna beat up Christianity?"

I think that despite the large amount of fear and loathing that's been going around between religions (I am still incredibly insulted that A RUMOUR THAT BARACK OBAMA MIGHT BE MUSLIM was enough of an issue that it might have lost him the election) the western world has made a lot more headway in the tolerance aspect, and while we still have a very long way to go in that regard if I had to hazard a guess I'd say I think the chances of everyone joining hands and humming some folksy hippie tune are greater than those of religious tolerance suddenly dissolving and Buddhists curbstomping Zoroastrians in the street. Granted, the Middle East has a very different tale to tell as far as religious tolerance goes (and I can't believe the bullshit reasons that Jews and Muslims have for hating each other over there,) but as Venetia previously stated they hate everyone over there -- the state of affairs in the Middle East should not be taken as an indicator of the global condition.

The whole thing seems like some old "prophet" trying to score himself some Follower Points with some scaremongering and an offer of the opportunity to be martyred. The rest of his predictions are such generic fundamentalist "end days a-comin'" stuff that I'm not even going to address them; they should speak for themselves. It's all possible, but if it does happen, it won't be because some ego-driven fundamentalist said it would.

 

[Incognitus]

I haven't been on in a long time. Anyways, some of you are probably thinking, here we go with another religious based question, and all I can say is yup.

Oh Diaforetikos... How I've missed your comedy symposium topics.  :thumb:


This guy has kind of missed out some major events which have happened (The Iron and Bamboo Curtain? That makes me feel so OLD) and you can still take him seriously?

Are you a dispensationalist and what type? If so, do you have a date for the Rapture, because I obviously need to make sure I'll be wearing clean underpants.

 

[___]

This information is based on many prophets of Christianity.

I'm sorry D, normally I love to discuss religious topics with you but I cannot work with an argument whos supporting 'facts' are the words of some self-proclaimed prophet, especially a constantly outed liar/nutjob (your choice) like Wilkerson (that's a Christian source using Biblical arguments against him by the way, before you decide not to click on it). People have been prophesying doom and gloom since the dawn of mankind, and it's been the mainstay of Christian prophets since the birth of the religion. Guess what? So far, they've all been wrong. That's not strong evidence in support of the latest wave of hucksters.

I am loathe to even let this topic stand the way you've formulated it, but since it's being handled as a discussion of the validity of prophecy rather than the topic you have suggested - the supposed future persecution of Christians - I will leave it be.

 

[Diaforetikos]

There are no facts behind. I am basing this completely off of belief, the bible, and word of mouth through people of faith. I can see why people would think that it wont happen. The obvious would be that Christians would need to violate something huge in order for it to happen, like commit a crime. But it won't be that obvious.

It's late and I'm tired so bare with me. This is where I'm gonna sound like a nut (I probably already do anyway). It'll probably be subtle. Small things here and there. Disagreements about homosexuality or things of the sort. The biggest one will be when a device or tag or something will be placed on everyone and Christians will think its the mark of the beast, 666. By then the world will be completely united and if you don't get the tag you will be put in jail, then as time passes, Christians and anyone who doesn't agree to have the device or tag placed on them, will be seen as traitors to the world. Even if this doesn't go through, Christians will assume the first person to bring peace to the world will be the anti-christ and will be extremely hated for that. How can you hate a peace maker?

It sounds like total bull. I know. It sounds like shit to me too, but I don't rule that out as a possibility. A very likely one. Everything I just typed doesn't me shit to anyone though unless there are facts. I don't have any, just my thought and some random coincidences that I take very seriously.

Manipulation is a very powerful tool.

 

[Ellie]

Why would it be just Christians, or at that every Christian, who opposes these magical tags (an idea that seems to have appeared from thin air)?