"My Two Mommies", should gay and lesbian couples be legally able to adopt?

[sixtyandaquarter]

What do the US states of Arkansas, Florida, Mississippi and Utah have in common with Denmark, Norway, and Iceland?  The illegalization of gay couples having adoptions.
(oddly enough some of those places have a very lenient stance towards same sex, just not in regards to adoption)

Should "alternative" life styles such as those who partake in homosexuality be legally able to adopt a child?  Does enjoying the couplings of the same sex somehow impose on them an inability to nurture, care, and raise a child who will one day contribute positively to society?  Is it a spread of the "gay scourge" (though I always thought the "purple scourge" was a better pun)?

If it is an importance of the traditional family, and how great and significant that is to a child's life, then should unmarried couples not be allowed to adopt?  Is it the same as saying unwed couples, who are straight, shouldn't have children either - since they themselves are breaking the same mold of a traditional family, as a homosexual parentage family would (albeit with different cracks)?

---

I try to limit opening posts in threads I start, in the symposium, to have no bias.  I much rather come in and post my opinion later on,preferably after someone has stated an opposing view.  I however will not do that this time around, and will state my opinions, in some vague fashion, now.

I personally think gays should be allowed to adopt, at the very least.
To me this is an issue about a limitation of freedom based solely on a bias.  This is the same as someone saying that "Blacks shouldn't be allowed to adopt, they'll raise criminals" - which btw if you're insulted by that statement, yes I've heard it in real life.  People have said it in entire seriousness, and if you are insulted that's the same offense I get from people saying gays shouldn't be allowed the same rights as every other normal descent human being.

 

[Anglachel]

One of my best friends is a lesbian so it's almost hard for me to form a single opinion. Although she has no wishes to have children.

Gays are people and so they should have the right to have children. However my worry about the children. Having to mothers could have negative effects on children. In my opinion every child needs a masculine and a femenine role model and parent figure, and I'm sure sme gay couples could provide that. But having two mums that baby the child is going to lead to an imbalence later in life. Say for example if that child is a boy he is going to be lacking important masculine traits later in life. He is probably going to end up extremely feminine with a lack of courage, emotional strength and the ability to take risks.

Now perhaps I shouldn't be applying that argument to that thread becuase it is fully possible for hetrosexual couples to not be able to provide the neccesary opposites in polarity and parenting skills for that child to grow into a balanced individual. It is even more likely for that to happen for single parents, and if children are missing one parent. I know kids that have only their mums and they get further mothered by all their female relatives, they can actually do more harm than good although of course that thought would never cross their mind. It is equally important to have both a father and a mother figure. I think that in a lot of gay couples a mascuile and a feminine role is observable.

In the end I think that gay couples really should have the right to have children, through adoptions or otherwise. If there are two loving caring parents than there is perhaps a better enviroment than in unhealthy hetrosexual relationships. I'm of the opinions that gays should have the same right of the rest of us, and the option to have a child is an undeniable human right and instinct. Still as you can probably see most of my thoughts tend towards the children in question rather than the actually couples themselves. Any couples considering a child should consider the child first over any selfish reasons they have for wanting the child.

A thought that does cross my mind though is that the child would probably be subjected to bullying because of it's situation. You also have to consider that this might happen anyway. But yes I don't think I could say 'gays don't deserve children' because it goes so strongly against my fundemental beliefs.

 

[NunoAle]

That's a very though question... I never really put much tought about it, but I'll put it now.

Ok, I have nothing against gay people. Never had, never will. I know one or two gay people, and any pratical sexual jokes, remarks, or anything they can throw at me, I just consider it what it actually is - a joke. I don't actually get offended.

Only got offended once in my life with a gay person (you don't actually need to read this):

Spoiler

I once went to a music festival, to see, particulary, Metallica. While Joe Satriani was on, this gay drunken male appears out of nowhere and starts to hit on me. But like, carressing me ear and stuff. I just pushed him away, because it was making me really unconfortable. If it were a friend of mine, I know he would just be joking, and if not, we would talk sereously about it.

I respect the gay people's thoughts and opinions, they are much as human as us. I will undoubtly recognise their love and caring for eachother, and of course, I would give them the right to marry, because if they really love one another, it is worthy.

Though, in my opinion, there is a big leap from marrying to raising a child of their own. It's not that I believe a normal person can only arrise from a traditional family, nor that the child him/herself would become gay. Nothing like that. I'm just concerned by the kid.

You see, kids in prep. school, the tiny ones, not really conscious about life, would be - as they always are - mean. And (taking the present as an example), at what point could a kid be traumathized in having two progenitors of the same sex, in a world where heterosexuality is greater then homosexuality? It's not because they would teach him/her wrong things, no, not at all. Kids aren't as dumb as they (sometimes) look. They would consider themselfs diffrent from everyone else. "People usually have one daddy and one mommie. Why do I have two daddis/mommies?

The problem here is what the kid could react after discovering what is rated as "normal", but neither the kid, nor his friends have the knowladge to know that it's just alright.

Don't take the wrong point from me. I'm would be totally forward to it, if someone could promise me that wouldn't be a nuisance for the children later on in life. We all know there is still alot of people carving their teeth and nails onto the idea that gay is bad and different.

I think now-a-days, where most people aren't still prepared to know and accept another half of people that just like the same sex as their own, it would be very bad for the children.

I'm clarely leaning onto this side, because I know how can the world act and how experiences at a young age can be bad. Tell me nothing will happen to the kids, and I have nothing against it.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I'm sorry, but I don't get the "hardships for the kids" deal.
If you aren't a majority, would that mean you shouldn't have kids because they can be picked on based on who their daddy is?  If you aren't well set, should you not raise children because of the hardships from peers?

A gay person should be more careful on if they should raise a child, because they can be picked on in an area where "their kind" are scarce?  By a straight kid lets say.
A poor person should be more careful on if they should raise a child, because they can be picked on in an area where "their kind" are scarce?  By a rich kid lets say.
A latino should be more careful on if they should raise a child, because they can be picked on in an area where "their kind" are scarce?  By an Asian kid lets say.
A Christian should be more careful on if they should raise a child, because they can be picked on in an area where "their kind" are scarce?  By a Buddhist lets say.
An interracial couple should be more careful... do I need to go on?  I'm sure you can see where I'm going there?

It's not so much whether or not I'm pro gay rights, which is fairly obvious, that makes makes me want to type out how silly those arguments sound, but rather the equal tide arguments.  A red headed kid with freckles is as likely to be picked on as someone with gay parents.  Should freckled red headed people consider on such a serious nature that they should only mate with people with strong hair genes and darker skin?

 

[NunoAle]

I wasn't talking merely being "picked on" by bullies. I was talking about deeper stuff. What I'm saying is, if everyone anywhere in this world could be used to gay couples, there would be no actual problem to them having kids. The real problem here, the only reason why it is not legal in almost everywhere, it's because everyone else thinks it's wrong. I don't it's wrong. But unconscious people might.

I'm sure if the kid who picked on the "gay couple's" child has some decent parents, they would explain how are the deversity of things. I'm saying the child himself might consider himself diferently now-a-days, and could have some sort of trauma.

If everyone in the world would not mind gay people, there would be no actual trouble, everyone could just accept the fact. But the world started and homosexuality was considered to be bad then, as some people still consider it now (except acient greece of course)!

It's a force of habit... If instead of saying "spoon" you would say "bouyzi", if the actual word was "bouyzi", if someone refered to that smae object as a "spoon", you could consider it completly different. I'm sorry about this lame example, I just wanted to show you what I mean.

Kids are very sensible. The picking on is fairly relevant in any situation, it depends on alot. It's what they could think of themselfs that COULD matter. Of course, an good gay couple could tell their child it's not bad having two parents of the same sex. It's all too relevant.

 

[Sic Semper Tyranosaurus]

The argument that gay people can't have kids because their children would be discriminated against is just retarded. It's even more retarded to claim that you say this out of sweet-hearted concern for them, because it doesn't actually change a damn thing. People will continue to believe that it's wrong if legislation continues to validate that belief by making it legally wrong.

My cousin has a wonderful, wonderful girlfriend. She's black. They live in Louisiana. My aunt doesn't want them to get married because their poor, poor children would immediately be identified as half darkie, and treated terribly. Keep in mind that intermarriage used to be as illegal as same-sex marriage, and that there's much less bile about it now that it's legalized and not considered an affront to White Jesus.

In short: Eat me. Nothing's going to change if we don't allow it.

 

[Grathea]

My opinion? Yes, GLBTIQ couples should be able to legally adopt.
To say otherwise is to curtail a person's freedom out of an insensitive bias, as 60.25 effectively put it.
I also hold no bunk with the 'bad parenting' argument, or the one that claims there would be an 'imbalance of gender roles' to the child growing up. First, so what if there is? Are we to shun anything that is different and threatens to encroach on our nicely kept, good old American family values? As Sic mentioned, it wasn't that long ago that interracial marriage was considered taboo. Gay marriage is much the same.
Secondly, what's the problem with an imbalance of gender roles anyways? Is there a fear that the children will end up transgendered? That's fairly foolish, as transgenderism is more likely to be a nature rather than nurture thing. (Please don't get into a debate over this. Studies have shown that transgendered people have brains that resemble those of the gender they identify with, rather than the sex they were born with.)

So, to sum up my points/rambling, yes, gay and lesbian couples should be legally able to adopt.

 

[NunoAle]

That's what I said, the people's minds are the problem.

And I never said they can't have because the kids will, I said they can have, but the kids COULD be.

 

[Grathea]

As opposed to normal heterosexual couplings who can't have gay kids?
Think about that for a second.
There's no real difference to the kids.

 

[So fist]

Frankly the whole parents modeling masculinity and femininity and sexuality in general is a bunch of left field horse shit.  Freud is shit, guys, a pile of greek referenced shit that conservatives usually mock except when it comes to homosexuality.  It assumes that what we consider masculine and feminine is a natural outgrowth of human "nature" than an arbitrary cultural construct built by the prevailing winds of society.

Seriously do you really think you "learned" your sexuality... from mom and dad?  Granted they are models for intersex relations but so is everyone else in your life.  And to what degree is anything outside of yourself truly responsible for where you stick your penis?  And what of gay children that come from otherwise perfect heterosexual nuclear families?  Did their parents not model gender roles roles enough?  Does that suggestion at all sound ludicrous to you?

I ask the Moral Family Values community where the priorities lie in this issue.  Is it more important that a child be provided a stable loving home with responsible parents who model most behaviors necessary for a happy and healthy life, or that little adoption Johnny knows the proper socially acceptable place to stick his penis?  That is the essence of the issue on the most practical of levels.  If you are going to tell me a kid is better off bouncing around between foster homes and group housing within the crowd of abused and trashed children than being in a stable home with caring responsible adults who happen to be gay, then the priorities being operated under are fucked and are not in the interests of the child.  Rather they serve the interests of a few obsessed with the cosmetics of society.  A few who will likely not adopt themselves.

 

[Samboy]

...Freud is shit...

Spelt fraud wrong.

Gay/Lesbian couples deserve the right to adopt kids, considering Christians have already taken their rights away to be a Christian themselves. Imagine being outcast from the Church, no place to go. If I was a Christian I sure wouldn't want that.

However, you've also got to think of the kid. How would they feel growing up with a gay couple? How would they feel going to school knowing they have two dads/mums and can't do anything to change it? I guess it's up to the parents adopting really. Adoption isn't an impulse buy, it's something you have to live with.

 

[So fist]

Coe, I know you're on a mission to one up the mod, but you're just embarassing yourself.

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[Samboy]

Ok. You win.

 

[Anglachel]

Sixty and Sic both make good point. I was saying that gay parents should have the right to adopt, I was just exploring the issue. I'm not racist, sexist or a homophobe. Nor do I really care for keeping the views of society as you will see. I am not saying that an imbalence in masculine/femenine roles causes homsexuality. It is definately something that I believe in though. I'm not a fan of the idea that our DNA controls everything we do with very little reguard to nature.

In my views men and women are inherintly different, on average. I don't even think thats really debateable. I believe in equality but equality doesn't equal sameness. I think I am going to be disagreed with most of the time because it goes directly against what society tells us. It has nothing to do with 'keeping traditional american family values', cosnidering I'm Australian anyway, but it has a more to do with my own personal beliefs. When I raised that issue I knew that it is more of an issue of society in general. The masculine and feminine roles aren't exclusive to males and females respectively, there are heterosexual relationships where to women takes the masculine role. Although traditionally it has been limited to men being the providers and women being the lovers. Anything spoken against 'equality' as it is seen today is immediately going to be shot down as sexist. I think that the reason for that traditional pattern is based somewhat on the fact that each gender naturally leans towards one end on average.

If anyone wants to know more about what I'm talking about I would suggest reading Way Of The Superior Man by David Deida. In the end the issues I raised it is unfair to put on homosexual couples, and I think really just reflects my views of society, which I'm sure will change over time.

So, to sum up my points/rambling, yes, gay and lesbian couples should be legally able to adopt.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

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[Samboy]

Well I'm sorry I didn't think of the Jews or the Buhhdists, sixty. I'll try to include them next time.

 

[Zelfouz]

Whether the parents are gay or jewish or black or what have you is completely immaterial in my mind. The ONLY important detail is whether or not a couple is capable of providing a safe and caring home environment for the child.

With the huge number of children who do not have the luxury of a loving and stable family, I don't think it's right to make a fuss over whatever petty ideas you have about what the "traditional family dynamic" should be. If a couple can demonstrate that they are able to provide a stable, caring, and safe environment, and they WANT to give a child a home, they should not be turned down.

eta:
In my mind it is not a question of whether or not gays and lesbians deserve the right to adopt, it's whether or not children deserve a home. The answer to that should be obvious.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

In my mind it is not a question of whether or not gays and lesbians deserve the right to adopt, it's whether or not children deserve a home. The answer to that should be obvious.

What?  Oh come now, you know yourself it deserved being said twice.

 

[Venetia]

Whether the parents are gay or jewish or black or what have you is completely immaterial in my mind. The ONLY important detail is whether or not a couple is capable of providing a safe and caring home environment for the child.

I completely agree with this statement, and was about to even type it myself. Thanks, Zelfouz.

The only negative side effect I can foresee from a same-sex set of parents (who are caring and devoted parents) is a possibly problematic harassment from closed-minded bullies in school, and perhaps some relationship confusion later in life (as I've read many studies that suggest kids grow up to have more successful love lifes when they have both a male and a female rolemodel in their lives). And you can reach the exact same problems in a single-parent household, y'know.

That's nothing. I most certainly wish I'd been borne into a stable, gay family, instead of the [hetero] neglectful, abusive mess I was dealt.

Why should we allow welfare addicts to pop out one society-rejected kid after another, while a gay couple with a safe and stable home goes without even an option? Ridiculous!

If you give one group of people a right, you must give it to all groups of people. If a person can meet the rigorous requirements of adoption, it shouldn't matter what they are or who they sleep with. If a person is a good parent, then they're a good parent. End of story.

How can we be the land of the free while people are still being discriminated against? Utter bullshit.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

The only negative side effect I can foresee from a same-sex set of parents (who are caring and devoted parents) is a possibly problematic harassment from closed-minded bullies in school, and perhaps some relationship confusion later in life (as I've read many studies that suggest kids grow up to have more successful love lifes when they have both a male and a female rolemodel in their lives).

Okay maybe I'm not a good book to look at here, as some might now - but I never had a male and female role model in my parents.  I hated them, and they deserved it all.  My brother, who is in no way related to me in any legal way and I met in high school, is married.  His mother died when he was 8, and his father is a womanizing alcoholic and cocaine addicted bastard.
He's married with a new born and he's the happiest I've ever seen him.  I will never believe that who your parents or guardians are, describes who you will be.  I know plenty of people with stable loving families and they can't get shit right, and I know too many people with the reverse.
It's too chaotic.

Secondly, bullying is a horrible excuse.  I'll say it again even though I already said it once, and Vennie you'd know that this isn't meant to you as much to those who say this IS THE reason to disallow it.
It's allowing the hate.  It is.  It's saying, don't do something because someone else will hate you - better they never knew as opposed to better they learn something new.

It's promotion by regard of ignorance.

Interracial kids are just as bullied, so are fat kids and gingers and white kids in my neighborhood but we still all go to school.