Martial Arts?

[BlueScope]

Out of uber-knowledge: Fencing is not a martial art, it's a sport ^_^

 

[Sion]

@BlueScope, I didnt plan on posting here...but when I saw someone else posted about fencing...

@BlackStaticWolf
No conventional form.

 

[m_artist200]

I dunno....while true, fencing was mostly for "honor duels" (i think) and was never used in warfare, it still can technically could be considered a martial art.

If kendo or kenjutsu or kobudo are considered martial arts, why shouldn't fencing? (aside from the whole warfare-usage)

 

[BlueScope]

Well, many people in here posted about stuff like Kendo, which is more of a sport than actual martial art, as it's been developed after the Meiji restauration as a freetime activity to train the body, while it's 'father' Kenjutsu is the actual martial art, trained to fight. There are some styles that are both, like Karate, which wasn't changed.

 

[BlackStaticWolf]

Well, many people in here posted about stuff like Kendo, which is more of a sport than actual martial art, as it's been developed after the Meiji restauration as a freetime activity to train the body, while it's 'father' Kenjutsu is the actual martial art, trained to fight. There are some styles that are both, like Karate, which wasn't changed.

Heh... I said kendo for the same reason I always do: most people don't know what I'm talking about when I say kenjutsu (particularly if I actually specify that I'm a I'm a third dan of my teacher's hereditary school). People usually know that I mean Japanese swordsmanship if I say kendo.

Out of uber-knowledge: Fencing is not a martial art, it's a sport

Actually, depending on your weapon choice, it can be both. The foil is a pure sport weapon and doesn't even simulate a real weapon. If you learn to use an actual original dueling weapon (like the rapier) then you can quite effectively argue that it's a martial art.

Just like kendo, fencing traces it's roots to "grandfather" martial arts. They just don't have fancy names. I think it's perfectly fair to call them martial arts, especially since the vast majority of martial arts enthusiasts practice the sport variant, anyway.

 

[LegacyComplete]

mmmmmmm...

i practise lots, i've been in training (which my grandfather started) when i was 6 years old.

Iaido/Iaijutsu, 2 years, sword drawing technique

i was like.. 6 and a half and was tought it until i was 8'ish. my favorite draw is Isshasenri, it's composed of a swift draw that blocks an oncomming sword, and scans the face of the opposing sword disarming it from the attacker, leaving your opponent open to your attacks.

Muju-shin Kenjutsu, age 8 to present, Ronin Sword Martial Art Technique

I started when i was 8 and im still practiseing this martial art.. it just seems that how ever hard i try i cannot defeat my grandfather in a spar... Muju-shin originated as a perfected form of the Shogunate Sword Style, and was used against the Tokugawa Shogunate in the fuedal Tokugawa ronin revolt... Muju-shin does not believe in the state mind of Bushido..

Hyakushouikki Ninjutsu, Age 15 to present, Stealth Ninjutsu Speed Martial Art Technique

Basically Hyakushouikki teaches you to be fast, silent, and if need be deadly. Hyakushouikki is used with a standard Samurai Shogunate Katana.

 

[BlueScope]

@Static: Man, be proud of doing Kenjutsu (the real Kenjutsu) and not Kendo (a lame fake version of Kenjutsu :P ) !

And Third dan? Nice... I challange you to a duel :D (actually, this'd be pretty unfair because a third-dan most likely uses a Shinken, while I'm still sticked to a Bokken... well, I'll beat you anyways :P )

And you could even make Chess a martial art if you play with grenades according to your logic... it's the basic idea that makes a martial art, not the weapon. In sports, it's the other way round most of the time.

@LC: Most 'Ronin Styles' (I'd guess Ga-ryu?) don't believe in the Bushido, as Ronin do neither. ^_^

Well, but of course I'm interested in your Ninjutsu technique... Ninjutsu most of the time isn't supposed to be deadly, so that also has to be Ga-ryu in some ways... also, Ninjutsu isn't sticked to a weapon, it either includes Bukijutsu (the art of weapon-handling) or is hand-only...

 

[ryanwh]

Is anybody here other than me watching Final Fu? You'll notice all of the high flying showboaters specialized in Taekwondo, which isnt surprising at all since Taekwondo is so specialized in a point system that rewards jump spinning kicks. But you'll also notice these guys are getting their asses kicked by a few of the more fist-based arts in the point rounds. They call it Arts for a reason, it has no practical purpose. But yeah, that's a fun show to watch. Braught back a lot of good and bad memories.

 

[m_artist200]

>_> I apologize in advance if it seems like i'm picking on people.

Iaido/Iaijutsu, 2 years, sword drawing technique

i was like.. 6 and a half and was tought it until i was 8'ish. my favorite draw is Isshasenri, it's composed of a swift draw that blocks an oncomming sword, and scans the face of the opposing sword disarming it from the attacker, leaving your opponent open to your attacks.

Are your sure thats iaido? Last I checked, Iaido was composed COMPLETELY of kata (forms) and there was NO sparring whatsoever..

Basically Hyakushouikki teaches you to be fast, silent, and if need be deadly. Hyakushouikki is used with a standard Samurai Shogunate Katana.

Are you SURE this is accurate? Full lenght katanas were rarely, if ever used in ninjutsu. Mainly because of the need to remain inconspicous. Something thats hard to do if you have a katana....

 

[BlueScope]

@artist: Iaido is indeed a kata-only technique, but Iaijutsu was the part of Kenjutsu where people had to draw the sowrds, a battle following afterwards, so maybe that's what he meant...
For Ninjutsu, it teaches you every weapon, katana or even nodachi equally as wakizashi or kodachi...

 

[m_artist200]

Ya, your probably right. >_< Ignore me.

 

[LegacyComplete]

@artist: Iaido is indeed a kata-only technique, but Iaijutsu was the part of Kenjutsu where people had to draw the sowrds, a battle following afterwards, so maybe that's what he meant...
For Ninjutsu, it teaches you every weapon, katana or even nodachi equally as wakizashi or kodachi...

i was gonna say that but u beat me by like 12 hours....

 

[AceJP]

I took taekwondo for 6 years. My advice? Get out of it and quick. It is an olympic sport martial art. There are other martial arts that offer better techniques for self defense. I have a friend who weighs about 2/3 of me and is shorter by about 6 inches, he is taking Ninjitsu, and he throws me around like a rag doll when I fight him.
Also wrestling is a really good self defence sport. I think a wrestler can beat any martial artist in a fight because wrestlers fight dirty once they get you on the ground.
I am curretnly taking Eskrima, which is weapon fighting. Its a fillipino art. It freak'n rocks. All the techniques you learn can be transferred to whatever weapon you have, and they all work even if you are "empty handed."
So you can fight with a broken bottle, tire iron, or katana and it all works. ^^,

I also dabble in Kendo

 

[LegacyComplete]

inches, he is taking Ninjitsu, and

i believe its Ninjutsu...U, not I..

but yea.. Tae Kwon Do isnt very good... I was taught Kashima-shinryu as a requirment of learning Muju-shin Kenjutsu, which is meant for use when you are weaponless or are/have been disarmed.. and trust me, i can kick the crap out of any TKD boy anyday...

 

[AceJP]

hehe somthing I learned about fighting in my Eskrima classes. Its one of those facts that you didnt know you knew, but once your told, your like..."Oooooh, that makes sense!"

When fighting with a blade aim for muscle, like the pecks, thighs, bi-ceps, ect.
If you hit bone, your blade will stick = not good
If you are fighting with a blunt weapon aim for joints, sholders, knees, elbows. NOT muscle. Muscle will bruise, but that wont stop them as quick as a broken bone ^^

 

[LegacyComplete]

best way to kill someone in defense via katana:

hold on defense until the attacker has a clear opening in his defense, swipe across the intestinal line then up across the chest. Return around with the blade facing back, and thrust upwards into the spinal region, make sure the blade goes directly through....

 

[BlackStaticWolf]

@Static: Man, be proud of doing Kenjutsu (the real Kenjutsu) and not Kendo (a lame fake version of Kenjutsu ) !

And Third dan? Nice... I challange you to a duel (actually, this'd be pretty unfair because a third-dan most likely uses a Shinken, while I'm still sticked to a Bokken... well, I'll beat you anyways )

I am proud of the rank I've a achieved... in fact when asked for more information about kendo, I do specify that I practice kenjutsu, but when someone just happens upon one of my weekly training sessions in the park with my sparring partner and asks what we're doing, they typically know what kendo is, and that's all they really wanted to know.

Heh, and actually, when sparring we always used shinai. It's far too easy to injure someone with a bokken (especially when you're still beginning). It's just safer to use a practice weapon designed not to injure. It still stings like hell though since we never wore armor. Nowadays, my sparring partner and I use a bunch of home-made practice weapons that we made initially to satisfy our curiousity about using several other weapons and styles. We have a full arsenal of foam-padded weapons that handle like the real thing (actually most are a little on the heavy side, which is good for training purposes) but don't hurt at all.

it's the basic idea that makes a martial art, not the weapon.

Well, the basic idea coupled with a couple fundamentals of the activity. The way I look at it, most martial arts today are practiced recreationally and treated as a sport activity. They've evolved over time to fit that appellation (hence, the sport variants). But the one thing that sets martial arts apart from other sports is that all martial arts can trace their roots back to some form of fighting art.

When fighting with a blade aim for muscle, like the pecks, thighs, bi-ceps, ect.
If you hit bone, your blade will stick = not good

It's not muscles that you aim for. It's major artories, veins, and organs. You also aim for certain non-vital, but crippling targets. The pecks would actually be one of the worst targets to aim for... sure it's painful, but it's not a major bleeding injury and it isn't crippling.

Also, there is actually a trick to having your blade not stick in bone with a slashing weapon. It's still better to not run the risk though, since not even a master can stop it from sticking every time.

best way to kill someone in defense via katana:

hold on defense until the attacker has a clear opening in his defense, swipe across the intestinal line then up across the chest. Return around with the blade facing back, and thrust upwards into the spinal region, make sure the blade goes directly through....

That injury is not instantly fatal, and that maneuver requires you to drop your guard. You NEVER drop your guard to perform an attack that isn't instantly fatal for one simple reason: if he's not dead, he can still kill you.

If there is an opening for that maneuver attack, you could also slash at the throat. Cutting the carotids will kill the opponent instantly. A less flashy, but more more effective attack.

The fact is, in swordplay (just like in unarmed combat), there is no such thing as the "best" way to do anything. There are shitty ways to do something, and good ways to do something, but there is no best.

 

[BlueScope]

Ah, much I have to reply to... I'm happy, because I like the topic very much :D

@Static: Most martial arts are, but certain kept their sense. If you're practising an actual ryu kenjutsu (not just 'kenjutsu', but something like 'niten ichi ryu kenjutsu' (I don't think that's practised anymore...)), you most likely get the real art training, not the new-age simplified version...
Short test for you: Did you train 1 stance (kendo stance), 5 stances (kenjutsu default stances) or more stances (most likely ryu kenjutsu/ga-ryu) ? :D

Well, other sports as ninjutsu were never supposed to be anything but a martial art... there are much downgraded things around, though, for example not training anything but taijutsu... I'm glad I'm in a ryu ninjutsu, so I have the whole program :D

And it's really tough to train with bokken... (ah, I should say bokuto... I always forget :P ) in kenjutsu, you normally don't use any armor at all, so that's even worse, hence kenjutsu requires full-contact training to be effective. Well, shinai are too light for me, I can handle heavier weapons better... (I like my iaito, it's about twice the weight of a katana, and fits my needs quite well).


@Legacy: I somehow can't believe you learned to kill someone, even out of self-defense... and also, if you have the right taijutsu skills (high levels in dakentaijutsu should do it alone), it's easier to defend yourself with bare hands than with a sword if it comes 1-o-1... nindo isn't about killing your opponent, as a ninja, you should know...

For the jutsu and jitsu: Jutsu is the original Japanese name (well, romaji, of course), while jitsu is American.

@Ace: For TKD, as far as I know it heavily relies on footwork and kicks. For a ninja who learns to use every weekspot of the opponent (like short paralysis because you don't have a sure stance with your foot in the air, probably also doing a fast kick sideways affecting your balance), it's easy to interrupt and perform a counter attack, like aiming for the YY point (the opposite side of which the attack targets) so you can't react fast enough.
My advice for you: Use ninjutsu kicks (stick your feet to the ground and only perform kicks to the ankles), do everything else with your hands. That's pretty much taijutsu, but it should work for a TKD student, too, with a little setup :D

PS: Ninjutsu are the only 'true' self defense martial arts, because every other ryu has a system based on 'honor', what can be not to hitting an enemy in the genitals, for example. As soon as these rules exists, the technique becomes useless, because you're harmed in movement.

 

[m_artist200]

O_o you spar using bokkens without bogu (armor)? .....That just scares me.

PS: Ninjutsu are the only 'true' self defense martial arts

Wasn't ninjutsu developed for spying/espionage? Sorry, just curious.

And, ya, niten ichi ryu isn't taught any more. If you find someplace that is teaching it, its probably a fake dojo set up to attract musashi wannabes.

The fact is, in swordplay (just like in unarmed combat), there is no such thing as the "best" way to do anything. There are shitty ways to do something, and good ways to do something, but there is no best.

:P Stole the words outta my mouth....

 

[JD_Slasha]

I am curretnly taking Eskrima, which is weapon fighting. Its a fillipino art. It freak'n rocks.

Yay go Philippines! o_0;;; ::runs away::

(I've never taken a martial art before)