Laws
- Thread starter tgman
- Start date
I personally think that drinking ages are arbitrarily created to compensate for other failed programs (i.e. Prohibition, as was stated earlier).
Now, in some European countries, the legal drinking age is years below the American standard. In Canada, each province can set their own, and it is below 21 across the board (18 or 19, depending where you live).
I think that if a person is legally allowed to participate in a life threatening activity with governmental permission (drive, join the armed forces, vote) they should be allowed to consume alcohol, and any other legal substances that can potentially impair your judgement.
Now, in some European countries, the legal drinking age is years below the American standard. In Canada, each province can set their own, and it is below 21 across the board (18 or 19, depending where you live).
I think that if a person is legally allowed to participate in a life threatening activity with governmental permission (drive, join the armed forces, vote) they should be allowed to consume alcohol, and any other legal substances that can potentially impair your judgement.
arbiter
Guest
;D
Dissonance
Member
repeal ALL DRINKING LAWS but also add devices to cars so that if you try to drive while drunk the car fills with poisonous gas and kills you instantly
the dumb will weed themselves out
the dumb will weed themselves out
decemberfox
Member
Without laws there would be anarchy. If everyone was smart, and kids weren't fuckwitted, then the world would destroy itself. Imagine what would happen if assault, or murder became legal. In an ideal world, we could get rid of laws, because people would moderate themselves. But this could never work, because people would abuse their freedom way too much. I myself don't bother with the whole 'teen rebel' thing but with total freedom I would end up breaking a lot of laws.
However, I think there are a lot of stupid laws. Even things like drinking ages and stuff don't work at all, because plenty of people over 18 or 21 drink irresponsibly, but there isn't any real way to fix it - people drink illegally now, imagine if the drinking age was 30 or something ridiculous (and still then there are plenty of over-30 problem drinkers). If we could catch everybody who committed a crime, then we could impose a system, like getting a demerit point every time you do something fuckwitted, repeat it enough and you lose the privileges. But obviously, we can't catch anyone. As many people under the legal drinking age drink as those over, Probably more percentage-wise because they think they're being cool and rebellious (though I personally think people like this are conforming to a 'rebel' stereotype).
However, I think there are a lot of stupid laws. Even things like drinking ages and stuff don't work at all, because plenty of people over 18 or 21 drink irresponsibly, but there isn't any real way to fix it - people drink illegally now, imagine if the drinking age was 30 or something ridiculous (and still then there are plenty of over-30 problem drinkers). If we could catch everybody who committed a crime, then we could impose a system, like getting a demerit point every time you do something fuckwitted, repeat it enough and you lose the privileges. But obviously, we can't catch anyone. As many people under the legal drinking age drink as those over, Probably more percentage-wise because they think they're being cool and rebellious (though I personally think people like this are conforming to a 'rebel' stereotype).
The drinking age is partly instated as a measure to "protect" society from the effects of alcohol. The government and their laws do not object so much to a person harming their own physical wellbeing through alcohol, the objection is against harming others. Due to the fact that alcohol is incredibly easy to obtain, and not all that expensive, it one of few drugs that physically affect other people than the consumer.
That is not the say the drinking laws are good. The idea behind them is good...People DO often extremely stupid when they consume large amounts of alcohol. They often cause serious harm or nuisance in this state which is exactly what the law should protect the people against.
The problem is that banning it for people under a certain age is gonna do nothing. Underaged people get it from their elders, or using a fake ID. On top of that, the fact that people are allowed to drink when they get older does not help the fact. The one minor redeeming factor is that older people, with more experience in life, have a chance of understanding the dangers to themselves and others better, and thus can make a more educated decision.
Sadly, this world is far from perfect, and most people choose to ignore their own knowledge and experience for a bit of fun.
I'm not cracking down on drinking as a whole, I'm fine with that. I'm also not gonna deny that I've been there, done that. Provided you keep it in check, it's a fun experience and can liven up dull situations, not to mention, small amounts of alcohol can be considered good for your health.
The thing that worries me personally, is the "binge drinking" culture you see a lot of. Where people go on rediculous drinking streaks until anything resembling a conscious decision just goes down the drain. That's where things tend to go wrong. That's what the law tries, and fails, to protect people from...
That is not the say the drinking laws are good. The idea behind them is good...People DO often extremely stupid when they consume large amounts of alcohol. They often cause serious harm or nuisance in this state which is exactly what the law should protect the people against.
The problem is that banning it for people under a certain age is gonna do nothing. Underaged people get it from their elders, or using a fake ID. On top of that, the fact that people are allowed to drink when they get older does not help the fact. The one minor redeeming factor is that older people, with more experience in life, have a chance of understanding the dangers to themselves and others better, and thus can make a more educated decision.
Sadly, this world is far from perfect, and most people choose to ignore their own knowledge and experience for a bit of fun.
I'm not cracking down on drinking as a whole, I'm fine with that. I'm also not gonna deny that I've been there, done that. Provided you keep it in check, it's a fun experience and can liven up dull situations, not to mention, small amounts of alcohol can be considered good for your health.
The thing that worries me personally, is the "binge drinking" culture you see a lot of. Where people go on rediculous drinking streaks until anything resembling a conscious decision just goes down the drain. That's where things tend to go wrong. That's what the law tries, and fails, to protect people from...
Dissonance
Member
Venetia":2pvc0q60 said:
This mode of thinking is pathetic. Most drug use is. If your life is shit, you need to change your life, not look at it through some substance-induced lens to make it look better. If you can't either change your life, or feel good about things without the help of any kind of outside influence, like alcohol or drugs, then you are pathetic.
Stop wasting my air.
(Of course since I'm always happy no matter what it's like I'm naturally high all the time so I might be a little skewed here :3 :3 :3 :3 :3 )
shut up diss
life is always boring unless you're in the fucking cia or fbi doing a fucking drug bust or you're like a spy infiltrating a terrorist camp or some shit. boring desk jobs and shit is a reality most people can't escape without either completely changing/possibly fucking their lives somehow, and 99.9% of the people in the world have a pretty boring life anyway so no matter how you change shit, without gobs of money, you probably won't change hardly anything at all in the long run. some people are naturally less excited about life than others.
alcohol is an escape like a vacation is an escape. you can't go on vacation all the time, and you shouldn't drink all the time either --- and honestly they both share similar outcomes if you overdo it.
i say "fuck you" to people who're always happy, and think that everyone can instantly be like them. brains aren't hardwired to react the same way to the same stimuli. so stfu if you magically think they can be.
life is always boring unless you're in the fucking cia or fbi doing a fucking drug bust or you're like a spy infiltrating a terrorist camp or some shit. boring desk jobs and shit is a reality most people can't escape without either completely changing/possibly fucking their lives somehow, and 99.9% of the people in the world have a pretty boring life anyway so no matter how you change shit, without gobs of money, you probably won't change hardly anything at all in the long run. some people are naturally less excited about life than others.
alcohol is an escape like a vacation is an escape. you can't go on vacation all the time, and you shouldn't drink all the time either --- and honestly they both share similar outcomes if you overdo it.
i say "fuck you" to people who're always happy, and think that everyone can instantly be like them. brains aren't hardwired to react the same way to the same stimuli. so stfu if you magically think they can be.
I'm one of those incredibly happy people. I just enjoy living unless something's really fucked up my day for some reason. I find that, when in boring situations, daydreaming is extremely effective. I probably spend a good amount of time daydreaming (mostly about being able to use magic :P), and it makes the time go by faster. It's also good because it can sometimes give me ideas for stories or games.
Dissonance
Member
Venetia":3am1xs1q said:
ilu ven :3
Venetia":3am1xs1q said:
Then you need to make the focus of your life something other than work. Don't worry Venetia I'll be the sweet honey you can come home to after a long day :3
Venetia":3am1xs1q said:
Learn fgt :3
Personally I believe anyone who sees intoxication as a cure for depression or boredom is not mature enough to get intoxicated. There are plenty of good reasons to do drugs - as an aid to introspection and self-discovery, as a social lubricant, as a tool to improve focus on a specific task, to relieve debilitating pain or correct severe neurological disorder, etc. Boredom and emotion are poor reasons because they exist constantly in almost everyone's life and using drugs in order to get rid of them leads to all the things that are damaging about drugs - long term damage to health, addiction, habitual abuse, withdraw from society, loss of productivity, etc. The times you're bored are the times you should be spending finding something new to occupy yourself with - discover a new hobby, do something that stimulates your mind or teaches you new things, make new friends, get some exercise, or even just catch up on sleep. Those things will lead you to becoming a more interesting and useful person; getting wasted will waste your time and energy and do nothing for you in the long run. The times you're depressed or angry are the times you should be confronting your problems or seeking help to fix them if you are dealing with them in the long term - drugs will perpetuate, procrastinate, and worsen the problem but never fix it.
That said, in the interest of preserving personal freedoms I don't believe in any prohibitionary laws, even for minors. Anyone who thinks laws are a substitute for social pressure and parental guidance is kidding himself. It's not the state's job to make sure your kid doesn't get booze or pot, and even if it were the state's job the state sucks at it terribly and wastes shit-tons of your money doing it that would be better spent on tracking devices and home urinalysis if you really wanted to control your child's drug consumption. What, does that sound oppressive to you, possibly? How is it less oppressive when the state does it arbitrarily to anyone and everyone?
That said, in the interest of preserving personal freedoms I don't believe in any prohibitionary laws, even for minors. Anyone who thinks laws are a substitute for social pressure and parental guidance is kidding himself. It's not the state's job to make sure your kid doesn't get booze or pot, and even if it were the state's job the state sucks at it terribly and wastes shit-tons of your money doing it that would be better spent on tracking devices and home urinalysis if you really wanted to control your child's drug consumption. What, does that sound oppressive to you, possibly? How is it less oppressive when the state does it arbitrarily to anyone and everyone?
Mr. N":2dccjso2 said:
I think yer taking the point a bit too far here N (also possibly misunderstanding the point.) Drugs are a mental stimulant, and so are the activities you suggest doing. Playing video games and doing drugs both release dopamine, it's just a choice between doing the drug or spending the time to find the right activity (if you don't have anything in mind and have the time or money to find a new hobby.)
You and Diss seem to be taking "alchohol" to mean "doing crack cocaine off the anus of a 12 year-old thai boy." And while it can get to that, most people are mature enough not to let it get that far. Hell, playing MMORPGs has been proven to be just as isolating, damaging and hurtful. In fact, any activity can be, it's just that substances do it faster and are more addicting because the emotions are assured and stronger. If I want a neuropeptide rush I could go scuba diving, or mountain climbing, or go golfing, OR look at a stripper, drink a little or do both. In the interest of time and the amount of money I have in my wallet I'd rather spend a night out with co-workers at Hooters then discover my unknown inner-love of high-speed crotchet. AND I'm lucky! I have a license and gear to go scuba diving or mountain climbing, and I play golf every now and then with my own clubs. But y'know, sometimes me and the boys get together to drink a little, smoke a little and play DnD a little.
Seriously, sometimes I think D.A.R.E. just takes things too far. Screws up the heads of all these kids.
That's true to some extent, Ixis, but my point is that drugs are not a cure for boredom or emotional problems, and in my experience it's the people who try to use it as such that end up hopeless addicts. Believe me when I say I've used plenty of drugs, I don't try to mask that, and I've tried things that most people consider dangerous and some idiots claim are instantly addictive. I've never used drugs to avoid issues in my life, though, and I believe that's part of the reason I don't have a problem with them. It's been a couple years since I used anything besides alcohol and I've probably had a drink less than a week's worth of nights in those past few years. That doesn't mean I won't do them in the future, either. But most of the people I did drugs with or drank with are still doing those drugs, because they have things they want to forget or avoid that come right back every time the drugs wear off, or simply because they're bored and drugs are the easy cure so they don't ever try to look beyond them. I don't want to sound like a dick, but I don't think most people have the maturity or discipline that's kept me from falling into that same pit.
As far as the difference between endorphin rushes and drug addictions, first you have to qualify it with the statement that some drugs simply aren't chemically addictive in a meaningful sense. Cannabis and most hallucinogens will not produce any chemical addictions, though they can become the objects of obsessive behavior the same way any other normal activity can. Other drugs though, like alcohol, opiates and most stimulants do effect chemical changes in the body and create a dependency wholly different from "addictions" to things like World of Warcraft or sky diving. There is a point where the chemical cycle can become so imbalanced that ordinary behaviors result in physical addiction but it's pretty rare, I think the only reason we see so many examples of it is because of the sheer volume of people in the world. If you look at the numbers of morbidly obese food addicts, real video game, porn, internet, or extreme sports addicts, etc. vs. the number of people suffering from real chemical addictions it's pretty clear they're an exception, not the rule.
As far as the difference between endorphin rushes and drug addictions, first you have to qualify it with the statement that some drugs simply aren't chemically addictive in a meaningful sense. Cannabis and most hallucinogens will not produce any chemical addictions, though they can become the objects of obsessive behavior the same way any other normal activity can. Other drugs though, like alcohol, opiates and most stimulants do effect chemical changes in the body and create a dependency wholly different from "addictions" to things like World of Warcraft or sky diving. There is a point where the chemical cycle can become so imbalanced that ordinary behaviors result in physical addiction but it's pretty rare, I think the only reason we see so many examples of it is because of the sheer volume of people in the world. If you look at the numbers of morbidly obese food addicts, real video game, porn, internet, or extreme sports addicts, etc. vs. the number of people suffering from real chemical addictions it's pretty clear they're an exception, not the rule.
But the topic is about drinking, and the drinking age in America. Yes, a large number of people who drink also do drugs, but by the same logic I could also say most people who go to Starbucks also drink, simply because I know a lot of folks who drink and go for Venti Frappa Mocha Double-Latte Chai nonsense. Or my friends and I who play DnD and drink. They play DnD to relieve boredom and they drink on weekends for fun.
It sounds like you've had this experience that links alchoholism with alchohol and abuse, but from my own experience most people drink to celebrate and have fun, essentially, to relieve boredom. I think this is what Venetia meant, not drinking because you start out bored, but drinking while hanging out or being with friends. Drinking in its very nature is (50% of the time) a social activity. The rest is abuse, and it happens a lot, but not enough to condemn alcohol or liken it or those who drink it to abusive drug addicts.
It sounds like you've had this experience that links alchoholism with alchohol and abuse, but from my own experience most people drink to celebrate and have fun, essentially, to relieve boredom. I think this is what Venetia meant, not drinking because you start out bored, but drinking while hanging out or being with friends. Drinking in its very nature is (50% of the time) a social activity. The rest is abuse, and it happens a lot, but not enough to condemn alcohol or liken it or those who drink it to abusive drug addicts.
Alcohol is usually involved in D&D for me - it's awesome for loosening up inhibitions and imagination. I haven't played in a long time though, as my group is a few states away now. I've also used it medicinally as a cheap muscle relaxer and sleep aid. There is a lot of responsible social drinking and drug use, I'll grant that, and when I talk about drinking I don't mean in the kind of moderation you see at a barbecue, small social gathering, or the dinner table. My experience though, like you said, is that most people that drink, socially or otherwise, do it as a thing to do, not as an aid to another activity. The object of being in a bar is essentially to get drunk, and usually find a sexual partner, socialization in that context is almost always short-lived and meaningless and rarely results in a long-standing constructive relationship. At parties, same thing. It's a pointless pursuit with little context or value, and many of the participants in both situations have serious drinking problems. You can pick them out of the crowd easily, but it's sometimes easier to count the ones that don't have a problem than the ones that do.
Also, there is absolutely no distinction between "drugs" and "alcohol". Drinking alcohol is doing a drug, the whole concept around the word "drug" having some special negative connotation or applying only to unpopular drugs is ridiculous. Any psychoactive chemical is a drug. They have the potential for positive use, recreationally and medicinally, and potential for abuse, across the board. The only drugs you won't find being severely abused are the sorts that produce extreme discomfort or generally undesirable effects when used frequently and in large quantities without a commensurate positive or pleasurable effect. Caffeine for example, you'll probably never hear of a person overdosing or having a debilitating caffeine habit because when used immoderately it's just not fun.
That doesn't mean any of them should be banned; prohibition is clearly ineffective and harmful to society. It also doesn't mean that everyone, or even a majority of people, are capable of using most drugs in moderation though, and their positive impacts on society at large are negligible compared to the cost. They're just an aspect of life we need to learn to cope with rationally and maturely, with hope that we can strike a balance.
Incidentally the CATO Institute is doing a debate on drug policy over at CATO Unbound, definitely worth a read.
Also, there is absolutely no distinction between "drugs" and "alcohol". Drinking alcohol is doing a drug, the whole concept around the word "drug" having some special negative connotation or applying only to unpopular drugs is ridiculous. Any psychoactive chemical is a drug. They have the potential for positive use, recreationally and medicinally, and potential for abuse, across the board. The only drugs you won't find being severely abused are the sorts that produce extreme discomfort or generally undesirable effects when used frequently and in large quantities without a commensurate positive or pleasurable effect. Caffeine for example, you'll probably never hear of a person overdosing or having a debilitating caffeine habit because when used immoderately it's just not fun.
That doesn't mean any of them should be banned; prohibition is clearly ineffective and harmful to society. It also doesn't mean that everyone, or even a majority of people, are capable of using most drugs in moderation though, and their positive impacts on society at large are negligible compared to the cost. They're just an aspect of life we need to learn to cope with rationally and maturely, with hope that we can strike a balance.
Incidentally the CATO Institute is doing a debate on drug policy over at CATO Unbound, definitely worth a read.