Gun Gontrol

[Lene]

There was story on my local news about a guy who went batshit insane and managed to stab 10 people with a knife (strange story, apparently he warned people he was going to go insane but nobody listened O_o). Should we ban knifes now?

Believe it or not, guns really don't kill people. People really do kill other people. That's not a joke. We can buy gasoline and soap, or fertilizer or soap in grocery stores and make a bomb that would probably affect a shitload of people (and thanks to the internet, you can find the instructions and probably videos on youtube) should we ban all these items?

Banning guns will not make crime disappear. The people who still want to do something illegal will still do it. Illegally.

That's why I said that comparing gun crimes and crimes is misleading. Once again, the statistic of crimes committed by people who legally have guns is probably a hell of a lot smaller than those who don't. There's a reason imo.

 

[Cruelty]

Mass producing firearms, and making them available to the general public was the worse mistake in American history (and other countries, of course). They are useful for armed forces, and police forces. Sure. The problem is that almost any asshole can get ahold of a gun now-a-days. I hear gunshots on the regular right across the street from me. People do it just to be assholes. Literally. They'll shoot of rounds into the air just to wake people up at 3am. A lethal weapon shouldn't be a play-thing. Strict gun laws = good.

 

[The Cry of Fallen Angels]

For the record, if someone in Europe has a gun that is not for hunting or their job, this person is instantly looked upon as if he or she were a criminal (which 90% of the case, is true). In America, everyone has a gun and thus the very negative view from Europe. And I won't deny it, I am of opinion America should get a fucking grip and ban guns.

Of course, that's not realistic. If you take someone's gun, they're vunerable to the people with guns. You can find the people with a "registered gun", but not the ones with "unregistered guns" . That would be considered like giving criminals a green light.

I have no solutions, nor am I too familiar with American politics and policies. And about the "guns don't kill people, people kill people". If you get angered and can't control your emotions, you start cursing, or even use violence. Here in Europe, it's a punch to the face, but if you have a weapon in your pocket, you will use that instead. The main difference here is that a broken nose has other consequences than a bullet between the eyes or a knife between your ribs. Before you can reconsider, you've done something that you cannot fix. Blame selfcontrol, but give me a person can turn off their emotions on demand.

 

[Lene]

Not sure if this is recent, but for a study on overall crime rates per capita...
ETA: it's from the "Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)"

Click to See

Spoiler

#1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
#2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
#3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
#4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
#5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
#9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people
#10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people
#11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people
#12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people
#13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people
#14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people
#15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people
#16 Hungary: 44.9763 per 1,000 people
#17 Estonia: 43.3601 per 1,000 people
#18 Czech Republic: 38.2257 per 1,000 people
#19 Italy: 37.9633 per 1,000 people
#20 Switzerland: 36.1864 per 1,000 people

Obviously a draconian gun law didn't stop the citizens of the UK from committing crimes in one point and time. WOW I AM SO SHOCKED HERE. ETA: Actually there are a lot of European countries on this list. Sorry but I'm not going to buy Europe as the bastion of safety, purity and everything nice here.

ETA:

In America, everyone has a gun and thus the very negative view from Europe. And I won't deny it, I am of opinion America should get a fucking grip and ban guns.

Everyone in America does not own a gun. And Europe's negative view of Americans is, I'm sure, not only because of guns. Blanket Statements like that are more than a little ridiculous and scary.

 

[The Cry of Fallen Angels]

Not crimes, perhaphs MURDER. Do you have numbers on that? I do:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

 

[Lene]

Not crimes, perhaphs MURDER. Do you have numbers on that? I do:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

And yet, strangely...The US is not even in the top 20 murders here. You would think that with every citizen in America being handed a gun, our rank would be higher.

Once again, the murders by firearms does not conclude that more guns = more murders. There are a lot of countries that disappear off the list when you add firearms to the list, and a lot of people who suddenly leap up. (e.g US, Canada)

Maybe in those aforementioned countries that don't make the murder by firearms top 20 (but make the murder top 20), people are killing each other with something other than a gun? Hmm, that's kinda hard to swallow here. */sarcasm*

 

[holloway]

Lene...The US is the highest developed country in the both lists. It's also #8 for gun based murders. How do you conclude that more guns isn't causing more murders from that?

 

[Lene]

I didn't know countries like South Africa and Russia (among others) were not considered developed countries. I didn't know that automatically being in a "developed" country meant that you could do no wrong either...

Just because someone has possession of a gun, doesn't mean they're more likely to murder or commit a crime. Taking all the guns away will not stop this. If someone wants to hurt someone, they will find a way to do it.

There's reasons why people do these things, and I think that more emphasis should be placed on how to make it so the incentive to do something wrong is less favorable. Maybe that does mean some stricter gun control laws, but I'd be stupid if I was going to think that's the solution.

Unfortunately a lot of people in the government would rather play the blame game on superficial matters instead of try to fix what may be lying underneath.

 

[holloway]

As I said previously though Lene, the US have been saying "We need to get to the root of the problem" for the past 10 years since Columbine, but are yet to get to this magical root. Whilst you're searching for this thing that may not even exist, there are still people dying all the time because of it. At some point you're going to have to take stock and think, perhaps stricter gun laws are needed until we can fix this situation.

If your kid goes through a phase of cutting themselves, you do try to get them help and councilling, yes. You do not, however, still allow them to have a razorblade with them at all times.

 

[Rhazdel]

The United States also has (for developed countries) one of the hightest rates of mental disorders and medication prescriptions. These, I believe, contribute to the problem, as well.

The people that commit these crimes usually have a firearm from a direct, illegal act. Which means, banning guns is not going to keep guns out of the hands of the people that commit crimes.

Assault weapons were banned (and should still be banned!), and that didn't really seem to slow down the use of assault/automatic weapons in violent crime.

The point is, there are many factors that contribute to the problem, and banning guns will only take guns out of the hands of (mostly) normal people. Criminals and gang members will still go through illegal channels to get their weapons.

Except for assault weapons. I believe these should be banned (they have civilian issues!), because they are too dangerous.

 

[holloway]

I never said an outright ban. Sure I would push for that in the lnog run, but not until the culture of the US got sorted. But you can't say that the current system is working. The system needs far more checks when purchasing a gun- the background check of the Virginia murderer didn't consider the effects of the fact he was on both sucide watch and councilling- he'd been admitted to a psychiatric hospital at one stage!

 

[Rhazdel]

Sure I would push for that in the lnog run, but not until the culture of the US got sorted.

That's the thing. The U.S. is a mix of almost every culture in the world. It's not just 'our culture', it's 'human nature'.

The U.S. isn't the only place where people are killing people with guns.

 

[alexia]

Fact 1: There are way too many stupid people in this world.

Fact 2: Stupid people + guns = Bad

I did a brief check online and found out that all that is needed to obtain a gun permit is to take a gun safety course, pay a fee and get fingerprinted. If their safety course is anything like Driver's ed, we're in trouble. I feel that the requirements in obtaining a permit should be much more stringent. There have been so many senseless, tragic deaths that were a result of a person owning a gun. Recently, there was a story about a toddler who blew a hole in his chest with his "Daddy's" gun that was stupidly left wedged between his couch cushions. And his response? "I forgot it was there."

Stupid people aside, there are criminals who obtain guns for the sole purpose of doing, duh, "criminal" acts. As someone stated before, these people rarely get permits and obtain their guns legally. The sad fact of the matter is, there are just some people out there who are a complete disgrace to humanity. Do I sound cynical? It's hard not to be when your constantly bombarded by stories of bad things that bad people do. I'm an "eye for an eye" kind of person. If there's a serial killer who enjoys chopping up people, chop off his leg and let him see what it feels like. Then, chop off his arm.

I am sick to death of hearing about tragedies. Guns are the least of our concerns. We should take a long, hard look at the majority of the people who make up this world.

 

[Roman Candle]

When it was said that the US was the most developed back there, it was correct in that the US has the greatest amount of resources available to solve the problem.

Raiju and Lene, you keep saying that they need to treat the causes of gun crime, not remove the guns. Well, people are always going to get angry, and people are always going to rob places. If you're implying that treating the causes means you end up with a nation that can own guns and not missuse them, then that's going about it wrong. That is just never going to happen. What needs to happen is not that people can coexist with guns, but that people can live without them. Alarm's alegory was a good one. I mean, if you're trying to get someone off a ledge, do you give them the first of an indeterminate number of psychoanalis sessions where they are, or do you try to just talk them off the ledge first?

You're quite right in that some people need guns to live. However, every single one, (no matter how many there are), needs to be treated as an exception. That means overly strenuous application procedures.

People kill people, guns make it really easy. I did just list three of four ways in which guns are innately worse than other weapons which you can get hold of, did anyone read it?

The US should be always working towards the ultimate goal - maybe an unattainable one - of no one owning a gun. Obviously, no country could ever manage that, but that should be the ideal. The ideal should not be a load of people with guns who don't use them.

edit:
Alexia - Ok, so after we've taken a long hard look at the people who make up this world, what are we going to do?

 

[alexia]

Lock them all up!

That's a tough question with no easy answer. You have to look at human behavior and how it works. We still don't quite understand it as a society. I mean, there have been murderers who were brought up in perfectly, respectable households. And decent human beings who have been raised in hellish environments. So, is it nature or nurture? I'm sure it's a little of both.

I think for one thing, our legal system has a lot of flaws. It's sad when criminals get off on technicalities. And the ones who do get arrested? Do you really, honestly think that people who serve time become less inclined to commit violent acts? I feel that, if anything, it increases the chances for them to commit other crimes in the future. I know that I said I was "an eye for an eye" kind of person but that was just me going off on a rant. I'm not sure what we could do to lessen the number of tragedies that occur each day. All we can really do is try to be decent human beings and hope that others will too.

 

[Ceroscuro]

There is one connection that you all (by that I mean those against the right to bear arms) fail to make.

As has been said, the people who commit crimes generally get their guns illegally. If we start removing guns, we would be removing the guns from the people who aren't using them to commit crimes and thus leaving the criminals as the ones with guns and everyone else defenseless.

Yes, ideally, this gun-totin' attitude never would have been started in the first place, but we're past that now. There's no real way to start removing guns and have that magically reduce crime rates.

Now, in my eyes, whether self defence or not, you're still attempting to kill or seriously wound. In a civilised society, dragging yourself to the level of the attacker isn't much better.

You're still speaking idealistically. You're in the situation where your house gets broken into. The robber has a gun. So you opt to sit quietly while he takes everything you have and rapes your mother? You try to stop him and you're dead. Shit happens, and don't be so naive as to think it only happens here.

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

Well, then you say you try to shoot the robber and he kills you? your philosophy won't bring you anywhere except right to the morgue, BRAVO!! Congrats!!, Now, let me see, how comes where I live, (Montreal, Canada) There's no people using owning fire guns?, weird, how comes the criminality it's so low here and so high in usa? oh, did someone say Usa was as safe as other countries? weird then, maybe I should go get a gun then, hmm, oh, wait! I got it, let's see, maybe it is because there's so much poverty in usa, and there's many social and racial issues which cause this criminality to keep jumping and jumping and of course no one is facing this problem isn't it? since, again, usa is so safe, personally I got nothing against Usa, but maybe Americans should begin caring about this problem that keeps growing and growing inside their society. In fact, the whole world should take envision new ways and avoid this non-sense.
Finally, what happened in Usa recently is quite sad, the same happened here a while. But honestly I think owning guns is not the answer, rather we should try to attack the origin of the problem.

 

[Andy6000]

Well, then you say you try to shoot the robber and he kills you? your philosophy won't bring you anywhere except right to the morgue, BRAVO!! Congrats!!, Now, let me see, how comes where I live, (Montreal, Canada) There's no people using owning fire guns?, weird, how comes the criminality it's so low here and so high in usa? oh, did someone say Usa was as safe as other countries? weird then, maybe I should go get a gun then, hmm, oh, wait! I got it, let's see, maybe it is because there's so much poverty in usa, and there's many social and racial issues which cause this criminality to keep jumping and jumping and of course no one is facing this problem isn't it? since, again, usa is so safe, personally I got nothing against Usa, but maybe Americans should begin caring about this problem that keeps growing and growing inside their society. In fact, the whole world should take envision new ways and avoid this non-sense.
Finally, what happened in Usa recently is quite sad, the same happened here a while. But honestly I think owning guns is not the answer, rather we should try to attack the origin of the problem.

Seriously, just stay out of this topic. The only part of that that was coherent and logical was the last paragraph. If you can't keep your annoying feelings to yourself, then at least keep them out of this topic.

Also @ Lene: how is that misleading at all? I mean, I get the feeling you think that because it's like saying 'ban guns and everything becomes better', but that's not what I was saying. In the long run, making everything horribly stricter and making it a real, real effort to get guns will make things better.

The logic: "if guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will use them" is pretty damn assuming. That would mean just saying, "guns = illegal, don't have them" and continuing to produce them as we do and everything remaining the same. You've got to get to the 'root' of the problem, and by 'root' I don't mean America's mentality, I mean the godamn producers. If no one makes guns and sends them out to people, and makes them easy to modify, then guess what, less will end up in the hands of people who will use them wrongly. Again, you can use the logic 'but this will just make people who can't get guns get shot more easily'. This is logic that leads to the problem propogating itself continually.

Like Raiju said, guns are sometimes necesary for things other than protection from others with guns. But these are guns that are slow shooting, not that dangerous in terms of shootings. Stuff like shotguns for hunting game, or whatever. People suffered to make this the United States instead of a province of Britain or whatever, was it a good idea to just say 'yeah we shouldn't rebel because it's just gonna get a lot of us killed'. In the short term, that logic's pretty fantastic. But I'm sure everyone who lives in the US would agree it was the right thing to do. Or just nod and say 'yeah sure' like I do. Innocent people got hurt for their freedoms, just like innocent people might get hurt to better protect their right to life in the long run.

I'm rambling now. Oh well, at least I waited long enough to post that I didn't just end up insulting people that annoyed me to begin with.

 

[Nin]

If you've ever gone trap shooting or hunting, you wouldn't want your guns taken away. Weapons like the 9mm handgun used in the Virginia Tech shooting with their easy-reload clips, etc. I'm not okay with. Theres not much more use for those than killing or target practice. The only real use for a gun like that is for law enforcement or if you're attacked by a grizzly bear or something. :-/

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

Andy6000, please kid, calling me annoying will make it all better no? whoa, I'm surprised you answer in an aggressive manner when I'm just stating the facts and merely discussing, please, next time don't assume I'm arguing, and if you have a personal problem, please, feel free to use the pm button and we'll fix this in an "adult" manner, I said adult implying that you are somewhat an adult although seeing the way you replied, I doubt it
Sincerely yours
the annoying guy