Grind in Video Games

[Brimstone-x]

I put this in the Symposium, because I figured we could perhaps get a little debating with it.

Anyway...  (From Wikipedia): Grinding is a term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs and JRPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked. It is often referred to as farming, a term that came from the repetitive nature of the game Harvest Moon. To Grind means to do one task the most efficient way possible in a repetitive manner.

So, what do you guys think of it? I personally, dislike it alot. I say, the only way to grind, is if they find some way to keep it fun, Like...say...Diablo 2, where you leveled relativly fast, so doing the same thing 4 or 5 times wouldn't be so bad.

But in games like Maple Story, where it takes you MONTHS with NO reward(No PVP...etc.), its pretty pointless.
They have ways of making you level faster, but it involves MORE GRIND. They have new party quests and such, so now, rather than spending a 2 weeks on monsters to get to level...80, you just spend half about 5 days doing the same party quest over and over.

I personally think its just....stupid. Why would someone intentially MAKE something boring? Thats just stupid. People use the excuse "It pays off." Hell no it doesn't. On Diablo 2, it didn't take near as long, but the skill system was very in depth, so you would continue playing other characters ANYWAY. Whereas with games nowadays, its just...very simplistic, but you'll be using the same character for months. Whats the damn point?

Now, Final Fantasy has grind. I'll even use the NES one as an example, where the gameplay is EXTREMELY slow.
The difference with Final Fantasy, is you would only have to spend an hour TOPS training. So, the game should only take say...a maximum of...7 hours to beat.
7 hours? Thats fine. I personally think if an MMO takes more than a MONTH to max out a character...Well you just simply won't find me playing it.

Anyways...enough about my opinion, your turn.

 

[moog]

This doesnt belong here, but it does in RM Discussion.

I think personally that it works great sometimes but I like it better as the game progresses that you level. After FFV you really dont have to grind that much, so FF isnt a really good example. Now Dragon Quest, hoo boy.

RPGs that make you grind usually suck anyways, cause that means theirs either a lack of storyline or other feature that the grinding is compensating for.

 

[Luminier]

i dont care if you think a debate about level-grinding is on-par with debates on atheism, incest, or the meaning of life. it isnt :|

 

[Cruelty]

i dont care if you think a debate about level-grinding is on-par with debates on atheism, incest, or the meaning of life. it isnt :|

yes it is.


on this website. it is.


the worst game ever when it comes to level grinding = forza 2. i don't really play many rpg's tho.
earthbound had some amount of grinding. but that was only because i'd get to a boss, get my head handed to me, then have to hike all the way up to his house again, and make sure i fight every enemy on the path. :\
i believe i had to grind levels a little bit in ff10 to beat yunalesca.. that's about it tho.

most MMORPGs are just one long level grinding session, right? I've never REALLY got into one.

 

[candle]

Most times, it really just depends on how you play the game.  I have to level-grind almost constantly in FFXII, yet some people breeze through with no problem.  My first time through  IX, I had almost no grinding, but the next time I played, I had to grind for early bosses.

I don't think most games with "grinding" are intentionally designed that way.  It just happens that you don't have the skill needed to progress with the current conditions.

 

[iamsephiroth]

There's no Problem with Grinding,It's how they Disguise it.

 

[Venetia]

I HATE LEVEL GRINDING

it doesn't matter how fun the battle system is, it doesn't matter how well it's disguised, level grinding is >NOT FUN< and >NOT CHALLENGING< and >NOT UNIQUE< so screw level grinding.

Level grinding is like being assigned busy work in school. It's not teaching you anything, it's just wasting your fuckin' time!

I mean random encounters dissuade people from exploring, and heavily-monster-populated maps force me to skirt around place I'd rather just breeze through. And if you get lost!! Oh, crimeny if you get lost!!!


Now I like battles. So what's the difference? Well, when there're fewer encounters, but the encounters you DO have are interesting and require strategy, then it doesn't feel like grinding, does it?

 

[dupont7]

level grinding is okay but... in an RPG you shouldnt need to level Grind to beat main story... you should beable to just go though it with no trouble. BUT to beat the other stuff like side quests then level grinding is acceptable

 

[Prexus]

That is a terrible definition of Grinding. It's far too negative, and far too specific.

Grinding can be both entertaining, and can be against non-AI players, only the last sentence of that was accurate, "To Grind means to do one task the most efficient way possible in a repetitive manner."

There are obvious reasons when grinding is a necessity. Especially in Online games. But the fact of the matter is, Grinding is game play. Period. Just because it may be less enjoyable than bursting through storyline and accomplishing goals, it's a necessary part of gaming just like grinding in real life is necessary.

For the average American, most days are 'grinding'. Wake up at quarter after 6, shower, get dressed, eat, drive to work, push some papers, crunch some numbers, make some phone calls, take a break, do it again, come home from work, relax and watch TV, read the newspaper, go to bed, repeat. Simply because its repetitive and monotonous doesn't make it any less important and any less a part of real life.

Just like in a game, specifically online games, it is often necessary to repeatedly do something, like kill a monster, collect mushrooms, etc. to accomplish a bigger goal. In every RPG, the goal is to progress through the story. And in almost every RPG, the story has your character developing, and getting stronger physically, socially, and emotionally. You don't get strong by fighting a giant spider. You get strong by fighting many giant spiders, learning how to determine their weaknesses and strengths, and use effective techniques to exploit the weaknesses and nullify the strengths. You don't just fight one spider, and are instantly able to defeat every spider. In online games, the goal is often to develop your character to the limits of its powers. That means fighting monsters over and over to get the money to pay other players for their services, getting item drops from bosses to improve your gear, and repeating tasks for NPCs to gain reputation and fame.

It's a trick used to add to the amount of game-play, without adding additional game-play. It's a trick, I think anyone knows that, but the necessity for it is there. There is cost involved in creating five hundred missions, each having you hunt down a different item, each having you fight a different monsters, or each having you clear a different floor of a dungeon; When you could easily have 25 missions to do each, that you do 20 times over and over. Sure, it's a cop out. It's a trick, but it keeps the cost of games down and lets them be produced faster.

In today's world, people all want instant gratification. They want to start up a game, and have access to all the tools and abilities they need to be the best. Yes, there are significant advantages to that, but if you think about games like Grand Theft Auto, or FPS games in general, where you start with the means to do almost everything, they get boring fast. I mean the most interesting thing to me, at least, in FPS games, is finding new environments, and new weapons. But if I have every weapon and all the environments look the same, it is boring. The idea behind Grinding is that you are putting work and effort into getting something. Like grinding monsters for money to buy that epic weapon, or returning mushrooms to a NPC to get enough fame to be able to get a discount at a store, or whatever the thing you are working towards is.

To kind of put it in perspective, I have been playing Knights of the Old Republic 2 lately. I find that the combat in the game gets a little boring. I mean, you walk into a room, the game pauses and highlights all the enemies, you enter commands and kill the monsters. It's fun to fight, but a little boring to do over and over. But I have no problem doing that, if it lets me unlock a new Force Power, or find a piece to build my Lightsaber, or if it is just necessary to get to the next story arc. If I could just skip from one area to another, skipping all the combat, the game would run dry and get boring very quickly. Which is something I found later in the game, where my character was capable of killing massive groups of enemies in one or two Force Storms, and I was just breezing through the areas. I didn't get enough time to soak in the environment, enjoy the story, and there was very little left to accomplish because I was already so strong. I completely stopped upgrading my weapons and armor after half way through the game because it wasn't necessary to optimize my equipment to fight anymore.



There are proper ways to do grinding, and then there are improper ways. As long as you are always grinding towards a goal (like grinding money in World of Warcraft for your epic flying mount, or fighting through jungle terrain in Knights of the Old Republic to find a crystal for your Lightsaber) and not just grinding in what seems like an endless loop (fighting the same monsters over and over again to progress in level towards seemingly pointless goals in almost all korean MMORPGS like FlyFF and Ragnarok Online.)

 

[Brimstone-x]

The only time grind is good, is when it is has some point. I mean just...Look at Maple Story, that game is like, the Buddha of grinding.

I could beat Final Fantasy(Which also contains grind) 3 times over before I reach level 25 in that. Its just completly stupid, and no fun at all. They should make it so the time it takes to get to say...Level 50, should be the time it takes to get to the maximum. They add SO MUCH stuff every update, but no matter how much they monsters or quests they add, it doesn't solve shit. WOO, new Ghost Monsters...Suddenly, after 2 hours of killing them, the "WOO" has been tossed into my toilet and crapped on. And the game has no true goal. The only goal I can think of is leveling more so I can re-decorate my cute little avatar with the new level 50 armor.

Whereas a game like Diablo 2. Keeps you FULLY entertained PER CLASS, pretty much the whole time to Max level. (Gets boring around 85 or so, but at least then, you have a goal to max your character for PVP).

I understand what your saying Prexus about the instant gratification and all. Yes, we do need to work for things. However, in real life, even if we do grind, it usually makes it worthwhile. I mean, surely if I read over my Math book 3 times I'd learn something. That would be neat in a game too. Read the math book until your character learns the multiplier attack. However, when I have to read those same 5 pages 10,000 times(Maple Story), I probably already knew it 100% by the 50th time. Why the hell should I continue reading what I already know?

Some games make it so you work WAY TO MUCH for nothing. Whoopdy do, I killed 5000 mushrooms and got my level 15 cape. Thats like, me devoting my entire life to building a small wooden car, and building the wheel of it. (I know, bad example...).

Also, I agree, grinding doesn't have to be fun. However, Unless the game is Wii fit, I expect any Video Game I play to BE FUN. Sure, some games are frustrating and take time. But, I mean, come on. Imagine there were only a limited amount of monsters in Final Fantasy. Lets say, in order to get to...Hornet, you have to be level 20, but the only way to get to 20 is to train all Imps, and there are no other enemys around until then.
Not fun right. Well, thats the kind of grind I'm talking about. The unrewarding, long, pointless shit grind.

Anyway, I can't think of anymore to say at the moment.

 

[Rey_JJJ]

I agree! I agree with basically all points in this topic (at their max update, that is.)! Now, for an RPG-Making community, can anyone discuss ways to keep the grinding within enjoyable range w/RPG Maker? Don't mean to sound rude if I am.

I was just thinking, I'm pretty sure nobody's mentioned grind prevension other than classifications of grind...

Like, occasionally your random encounter is true to its name and you fight a completely new monster, unknown strentghs and weaknesses... encourages you to think, and with its power, poses a challenge, which you, as the player, work out. If you win... if you fail... then what?

No seriously, then what? I'm out of ideas.

 

[Rayne Aven]

In addition to what Prexus said, there is another reason why grinding is a necessary part of online gameplay: leveling the playing field. If MMORPGs were 100% based on how skilled you are, then only a small minority of those games' communities would actually enjoy themselves because they have the highest skill level. Anyone else who entered PVP would pretty much automatically be killed, and the game would not be fun for them. Developers foresaw this and thus added grinding, which means that the majority who aren't as good at the game as the more skilled minority can balance out their lack of skill with length of time committed (which also gives the illusion of having obtained skill).

There are ways to make leveling up fun, though. What needs to happen with MMORPGs is that the designers need to add more diversity to gameplay. For instance, they could randomize enemy spawn points and AI, so that enemy encounters will feel at least partially fresh, different, and involving. Also, they could add more user-created content to the game: why not give players the ability to make their own mini-levels to play with their friends on? This way, the user can grind while maximizing their gameplay experience.

 

[AnsatsuMan]

The only game I've ever found pleasure grinding in:  Chrono Trigger.  I like the battel system too much lol

Otherwise, I hate grinding so much.

 

[FlippyD]

I LOVE GRINDING!!
when it's done right

Most grinding sucks because it's implemented in a bad and shitty way. RPGs in particular find themselves in an awkward place using plot as a reward for sub-par gameplay. Then it comes down to something that would make an excellent book or movie, interrupted by spaces of dungeons and grinding. Tedium that only serves to piss players the fuck off.

That said, even when done right, grinding is not for everyone. I say this because Venetia can't stand any grind, yet I find myself grinding and not giving a flying fuck about the story (because in my opinion only a handful of RPGs had stories that weren't utter shit. In fact, I have yet to play an RPG with a more than sub-par storyline.) In fact, right now in FFTA2 I've been doing nothing but sidequests, not daring to touch the story, and I've been doing this for over a week or so. Tales of Symphonia had a battle system that to me was simply a joy to play, so I wound up "grinding" because the grinding was painless and fun. I thought "hell, what's one more level?" before heading into a story event... Then I achieved said level and thought "well, Lloyd is pretty close to levelling up, so I'll get him up one level." Over and over I kept levelling characters until I needed someplace with stronger monsters to practice on. Finding none I begrudgingly went on with the story.

Grinding is fun for folks like me who don't mind the tedium of it. We enjoy the micro-managing and the thrill of seeing something grow, like watching a plant sprout from a seedling into a big-breasted leather wearing arch-mage who can burn the genitals off of a marauding centaur.

We enjoy the storylines, sometimes, though oftentimes it becomes the opposite of what Venetia is describing. "Goddamnit, how long is that stupid bitch going to cry about how she was magically raped by the evil king of Zanzabar? THERE'S A FUCKING TREASURE CHEST RIGHT THERE!! Once this cutscene ends I'm so going to tap that." I can't tell you how many times I had to suffer through the shitty melodrama of video game characters just to get back to the goddamn game!

Now sometimes the stories are short, sweet and enjoyable (Earthbound), and sometimes it's long, involving and immersive (Vampire: Bloodlines, which is in my opinion, the best RPG I've played so far.) So, it's not all bad, but the whole "grinding sucks" issue swings both ways.  In the end I think a game with strong gameplay and a crap (non-invasive) story wins out over a well-written story with bad gameplay.

Grinding can be used extremely effectively. It just rarely is.

EDIT
I also want to respond to this:

In addition to what Prexus said, there is another reason why grinding is a necessary part of online gameplay: leveling the playing field. If MMORPGs were 100% based on how skilled you are, then only a small minority of those games' communities would actually enjoy themselves because they have the highest skill level. Anyone else who entered PVP would pretty much automatically be killed, and the game would not be fun for them. Developers foresaw this and thus added grinding, which means that the majority who aren't as good at the game as the more skilled minority can balance out their lack of skill with length of time committed (which also gives the illusion of having obtained skill).

That's usually an excuse for people who jump into any online game without a Trueskill system, or an approximation of. I find it more enjoyable to play a game with skill involved against someone with more skill and lose, than to lose to someone who simply put in more time. It's like playing any CCG: the richest player usually has the advantage.

WoW has 10 million subscribers, about the same as subscribers for Xbox Live, all who play games like GTAIV, Rock Band, TF2 and Halo 3 online. Games that require skill (and that's not counting how many of the 15 million steam subscribers play online skill based games, or the number of people who play skill based online games on private servers.)

No, the problem is MMORPGers expect that if they put X amount of time in something then they should win. It's the darkside of grind-based gameplay. It teaches the player that skill means nothing so long as you have a high enough number to throw at it, and you get higher numbers by investing grind-time. While that makes sense in a single-player experience, it's unfair in a cooperative environment if it's taken too far. Working together to achieve a goal (figure out how to overcome a bosses' combat strategy) is a nice way for players to work together and solve problems together, but in a PvP setting it's harder to create that strategic atmosphere. (That's not to say some strategy isn't involved, but when I played WoW you knew the strategies before entering the battlegrounds. It was never dynamic or engaging.)

 

[kaze950]

I hate constantly grinding enemies. I don't mind in WoW, when you are doing it for a quest or something. At least you get exp and/or items or gold for quests. In many MMOs, its one grinding spot to another. WoW has multiple zones for each level gap, and plenty of quests.

Now, for single player games, I do not approve of grinding. Grinding should not be necessary, it should be set up where if the player doesn't run from most enemies, he/she will be at an adequate skill level to proceed through the game (that doesn't mean you should exclude strategy in bosses/dungeons).

 

[Bridgeman]

I HATE LEVEL GRINDING!
Except in Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross

Even in DQ8 I hated it. I really like the game itself, but the random battles were nothing to me. The battle music wasn't all that good either. But in DQ8 it's a little better because of the awesome graphics, but still gets annoying in a while.

Especially in World of Whackos it's intense. Quest after quest after quest it's "Kill 5 of that and 6 of that and gather 7 of those items", seriously, I HATE it.

Even in CT it would get boring after a while, but at least in CT you get a good no. of characters fast, so you have some variation. In Chrono Cross random battles were simply epic. I ran into enemies so I could fight all the time.

 

[arbiter]

;D

 

[bashful crobat]

I LOVE REPORTING MODERATORS!

 

[Jason]

Now you see, I see it the other way, I like grinding, especially on the FF games and other console RPG's, I don't see it as hard tedious work, but I see it as making yourself stronger to make the boss battle easier.

However, if we talk MMORPG, like Maplestory, I HATE grinding, although it's something I've gotta do... 2 years of playing, and what do I have to show for it ? Level 63 (Out of 200..), woo, go me !

 

[Rey_JJJ]

Now you see, I see it the other way, I like grinding, especially on the FF games and other console RPG's, I don't see it as hard tedious work, but I see it as making yourself stronger to make the boss battle easier.

However, if we talk MMORPG, like Maplestory, I HATE grinding, although it's something I've gotta do... 2 years of playing, and what do I have to show for it ? Level 63 (Out of 200..), woo, go me !

:smile: Good man, good man. What a trooper. FF is pretty fun, ain't it? (The series, not necessarily part 1)