Dungeons: Simple or Complicated?

[AExcalibur]

We all know about dungeons from past RPG experiences. Areas containing monsters where the player has to progress through in order to either gain an optional item, or expand the game itself in terms of known story and the like. Some are hard, and some are easy. However they all have one thing in common: They're supposed to challange the player or introduce him/her to smoething. I for one, support hard dungeons, wheither it includes puzzles or not.

Let's take Tales of Symphonia for example. A variety of dungeons that contain beings called summon spirits, have puzzles such as moving throughout every room doing goals (such as in Triet Ruins, you use an item called the Sorceror's Ring in order to light torches or whatever that some how control the elevation of some platforms), backtracking in order to access new items or areas, some times just to fight a new optional monster. The difficulty of dungeons varies, sometimes having you even get to a new maze-like dungeon, only to find out you need to backtrack to one of the first dungeons to get an important item that you missed. ToS, like other Tales of games, was able to create good challanging dungeons that weren't all that linear in some cases.

Now, some created games, have relatively easy dungeons that don't really involve maze-like passageways or puzzles. You'd just go explore about ten linear, straightforward passageways, only to face an easy boss. Now, this would of worked, only if you had the boss to be complicated and/or epic to beat (this would be easily possible in a game using an ABS, or the like).

For example, let's take it that after going through a literally straight passageway with about 10 rooms containing simple monsters, you find a "Dark/Vampire" Ogre. Let's say you're using an ABS, and the intro sequence has it charging at you. You just barely dodge, and find out that while it can deal massive damage to you, your attacks barely do anything to it. On the brink of death, the character finally finds out that the boss cannot be harmed by anything except light. You flee, with the "boss" following you. If it touches you, you'd lose X HP. While it's chasing you, you'd have to go through about five other hidden rooms, solving challanging puzzles, while the ogre eventually gets more powerful as you progress through the rooms, until it can deal X to the 10th power of HP. You find a switch that causes a larger amount of light to enter the dungeon, and the ogre flees.

The player feels proud after solving the extremely tough puzzles, and as you try to exit, thinking the monster fleed into another dungeon, you find out you're trapped in the dreaded place. The ogre comes charging back at you, this time extremely angry. However it can be harmed right now, and the true boss battle begins. When it loses X amount of HP, it'll become immune as the light fades away. The ogre goes back into what I call it's "Boss' Nest" (where the boss would begin the battle). Finding a secret passageway, you enter a lava filled chamber where eventually the ogre gets bored and chases you, you have to destroy a wall by having it ram into it. Light rushes into the dungeon again, as a passage is revealed again. Now, this ogre forms crystals using magic spells, and it flees once again. You'll have to go through a morphed room, destroying the crystals in a maze. After you destroy X crystals, you're free to enter the "Boss' Nest" again, having a true battle.

After five minutes of battling, the ogre which has control of the dungeon dies, and it morphs once again into a lava-filled maze. Now, this would be the hardest part of the dungeon, as the boss battle isn't truely done yet (as the boss is essentially the dungeon now, as the enviorment becomes harmful). Losing X amount of HP per X X (this represents a certain amount of time), you saved the kingdom, now you just have to flee the dungeon. Using something like Triet Ruins, you have to activate hidden switches, revealing bridges and the like which'll help you escape.

That could be an example of how to make a dungeon complicated, or just plain hard. I seen one good game using something like that, however I can't place my tongue on what it was...

Now, how do YOU like your dungeons to be? Simple with a linear passageway, one or two puzzles, and a standard boss? Or complicated with a maze-like passageway, multiple puzzles, and multi-phase bosses?

 

[sillypieman]

The only dungeon I've designed so far is pretty much just a straightforward tower, with only like 3 real floors (the other floors are just small rooms with stairways going up and down). I will probably try to do more complex, interesting dungeons for later, but this is just the first dungeon, and it is the first time you will be fighting monsters. So I think it doesn't need to be complex from the start of your game.

But one game that I think had the best dungeons ever, was Lufia 2. Each dungeon had AT LEAST one new kind of puzzle in it. And there were also items you could use on the map, that were kind of similar to ones in Zelda. So yeah, if you want to keep me interested in a dungeon, take after Lufia 2.

 

[lunarea]

In my opinion, the dungeons should progress from relatively simple/easy to relatively complex/difficult. Besides the fact that this helps the player get used to the game mechanics (which is very important in games that use different or unique battle systems), it also helps with the evolution of the story: the character starts off as a relative novice and gains more experience and knowledge as he/she goes along.

There's also a lot of thought that needs to be put into puzzles. If you make them too easy, the player will get bored and stop playing. But if you make it too difficult, the player will get frustrated and equally stop playing.

So, in my opinion, the best way to go is with evolving dungeons. The first might be something as simple as navigating through a maze. The last can be something as complex as navigating through a maze with secret passages requiring combination of item use, skill use and defeating enemies/bosses.

 

[AExcalibur]

"I will probably try to do more complex, interesting dungeons for later, but this is just the first dungeon, and it is the first time you will be fighting monsters. So I think it doesn't need to be complex from the start of your game."


True, that's why I said they're supposed to either be challanging or to introduce the player to something. First dungeons normally shouldn't be hard without a reason, expecially since they often cause are the first times the player will fight, and are often in the beginning of the game.

However, they shouldn't be as simple as one literally straight room leading to a boss. There should be something such as obstacles, treasure chests, ecteria, that'll also draw the player's attention and make sure the dungeon isn't very simple or linear. For example, one of my "test" games had it that one dungeon was essentially a maze-like castle, which had easy battles. However the decorations, and other characters inside would easily make the player think "what is going to happen up ahead?/what would happen if I talk to this guy/thing?"

Still a bit simple, however it isn't as straightforward and can draw the player's attention, eventually starting more complicated "side-quests" and the like.

For example, you enter a castle, and you see a guard in a prison. He asks you to get the keys which a madman stole, since the King is magically teleported into a prison cell. The guard reveals a secret passageway, and you exit what could've been a simple castle just where you could talk to the Queen in the throne room, into a secret demon filled dungeon containing mini-game-ish events and puzzles such as solving riddles to progress forward. Games such as Outlaw City did things like this, however just about all puzzles were required (at least from at the point I'm at in that game).

 

[kaze950]

Some dungeons should be puzzle filled, others should just have 1 or 2.

The first dungeon of my game, a Bandit's fort, is relatively simple.

Spoiler

The boss is in the center room, but the door is locked. The door on the left wing of the building is also locked. So, you go through the right door and up some stairs. After solving a 3 switch puzzle (Where Switches must be pulled in the right order, if not you fight an enemy), you go upstairs once more. Floor 3 contains a similar puzzle, but is optional. You have three chests. If you open the chests in a certain order, you can get 3 good items. However, if you mess up and do the wrong order, the chests are empty. The 4th level contains a jail, where you fight a guard and free a prisoner, getting a key from him to the left wing.

For the left wing you can choose to go straight up to the roof, or stop on the third floor to fight 3 demons. Either way, the exp is good, but if you fight the demons in a particular order you'll be awarded a special item, of which there are 6 chances to get in the game (But only 4 are needed). Once you get to the roof, you travel down a flight of stairs to the center room and fight the boss and some lackeys.

After the fight, the boss tries to escape by running up the stairs, and you do 3 1-turn fights with him on each floor. He gets to the roof, and invokes a ritual to gain demon wings and more power. You fight him a final time on the roof, but it is more difficult because of his increased power. 3 turns into the battle, and the curse will start poisoning him. If you don't want to fight, wait 50 turns and he'll die.

If you kill him, the main characters will attack him and send him flying off the roof. If you wait the 50 turns, he'll just die on the roof suddenly.

Does that sound good?