Dungeon Design Do's and Don'ts

[Sol_Fury]

You could also cut to events going on elsewhere. Just because the player is in the dungeon does not mean that the rest of the world stands still.

A good idea, for example, is if you have a large amount of cuts to what is going on elsewhere at the end of the dungeon, to perhaps split them into shorter scenes, then add them in so they play as the player progresses through the dungeon.

As far as second play throughs go, there is the system that Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter used. Clearing the game netted you a rank, based on various things, including map coverage. Depending on your rank, new areas and cutscenes became available, additional story elements that you may not have seen before, or things shown from a new perspective. Clearing the game again, with these new areas, meant your rank could grow higher, unlocking more secrets.
It was a very short game, but one founded on replayability.

 

[KhaoticErase]

That would help more than I could even imagine. But I kinda wanted the game to be like a novel told in first-person. I wasn't really planning on having any "meanwhile" scenes.

 

[___]

As far as second play throughs go, there is the system that Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter used. Clearing the game netted you a rank, based on various things, including map coverage. Depending on your rank, new areas and cutscenes became available, additional story elements that you may not have seen before, or things shown from a new perspective. Clearing the game again, with these new areas, meant your rank could grow higher, unlocking more secrets.
It was a very short game, but one founded on replayability.

It also bombed if I remember right, I'd be careful taking any examples from it. It's not the experience people are expecting when they pick up an RPG, let alone one carrying such a venerable franchise as Breath of Fire. Maybe it would be more viable in a homebrew though.

Also on the subject of boss encounters I use an open save system as well as visible enemies rather than random encounters. With some foreshadowing and proper escalation of suspense throughout the "dungeon" I should hope the imminent encounter is obvious enough to the player that he has the presence of mind to save. I don't know for sure whether that's working or not yet of course since I'm in alpha and haven't let my testers at the game in a while : ) Maybe an autosave feature that triggers before walking into the boss room would be an option? I feel saving, in general, should be a feature of convenience rather than a game mechanic to be exploited by the developer. Going for an hour or so of mindless grinding and dungeon crawling without a save point only to be wasted by a boss is a great way to get your casual player (and me, for that matter) to put down the controller.

My approach to enemy encounters is to make every required fight somewhat unique and interesting rather than having mobs of minions, and to leave space for other types of challenges in between instead along with alternative experience rewards. I provide a few here and there that respawn and are optional for those who like to grind, along with some rare drops and other reward systems but none of them are required for story progress. Trying to strike a balance is going to be tough, so I hope the kinks will get ironed up during the testing phase, but there's a different idea for you to chew on.

 

[Rhazdel]

Maybe an autosave feature that triggers before walking into the boss room would be an option?

I would warn against using an autosave before an imminent boss battle. If you are going to use an autosave (good idea), make it a little ways back, where if the player isn't at a high enough level/under equipped/etc. they still have the option to turn back.

I've played games where I was stuck at a forced fight that I wasn't supplied for. It made me flat out walk away from the game and had to start a whole new game. It sucks.

 

[___]

Er

 

[___]

If I were to use an autosave feature I'd dedicate a special save slot to it so as to not overwrite the main save. Also, the best place to use it would be immediately before the point of no return.

 

[Rhazdel]

That should be fine. Just try not to trap the player. That can be very frustrating.

 

[iceplosion]

Artbane how do you come up with the ideas for your dungeons? All of mine seem to suffer from a serious lack of originality.
How do you come up with the ideas for the puzzles? I'm finding it difficult to create a puzzle that does not involve battle in some way. (are all of the puzzles in the master of the wind dungeons as complicated as they look?)

 

[jbart321]

"There are a few things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and that there will be no more story until the end of the dungeon. I blame our nostalgic memories of older RPGs for this disconnection. Most dungeons are based on the classic rules set by the forefathers of the genre. These games weren't rich with plot and dialogue in the first place, so it was no surprise when the dungeons didn't feature much of either. Now that RPGs do have richer stories, dungeons should no longer function as an intermission from the game's main plot. Rather than reward the player for beating a dungeon with more story, make the playing through of the dungeon rewarding.

I kind of like the nostalgic dungeons. Most of mine don't have much story, but usually at least some so it doesn't seem so useless to do. But, for the most part you are in the dungeon for another reason besides leveling up anyway, so I guess this will just be your decision in the end.

 

[ArtBane]

Artbane how do you come up with the ideas for your dungeons? All of mine seem to suffer from a serious lack of originality.
How do you come up with the ideas for the puzzles? I'm finding it difficult to create a puzzle that does not involve battle in some way. (are all of the puzzles in the master of the wind dungeons as complicated as they look?)

Some are quite complicated. But as you can see with the series the puzzles get more complicated as the game progresses. Through working with the program so much I have been able to broaden what I can actually make in the game. If you practice with it enough you also should be able to get better at it. If you are short on ideas, I'd recommend playing other people's game. This can sometimes help spark innovation. Most of my ideas come from something I experience that I want to put into MotW and not necessarily just from other games either. Just always keep your project in the back of your mind and ideas will come.

 

[HarryE]

Don't forget it is possible to IMPROVISE through a dungeon.

Hear me out here. What you say is that you have to have EVERYTHING planned out. I think this is true to an extent, but there are parts where you can sort of improvise your way through.

That's not to say you should rush straight into a map, make yourself a giant room and hope the ideas will just come to you. You need a good base idea to make it work. If you have a good setting, tone and core idea, you might find you can expand this idea as you go along.

Im not sure if Im getting what im trying to say across right. You can Improvise through a dungeon, but you need a good idea to kick-start that to work.

 

[encindia]

You gave me some new ideas for my game! Thank you so much! This article is really really useful. Now my game will have more fun dungeons if I ever decide to release it O.o.
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[ArtBane]

Don't forget it is possible to IMPROVISE through a dungeon.

Hear me out here. What you say is that you have to have EVERYTHING planned out. I think this is true to an extent, but there are parts where you can sort of improvise your way through.

That's not to say you should rush straight into a map, make yourself a giant room and hope the ideas will just come to you. You need a good base idea to make it work. If you have a good setting, tone and core idea, you might find you can expand this idea as you go along.

Im not sure if Im getting what im trying to say across right. You can Improvise through a dungeon, but you need a good idea to kick-start that to work.

I didn't mean to plan everything out. I basically meant what you said. You should go into the dungeon with a general idea in your head. I never plan out my dungeons entirely. I just have a good idea of what is going to happen in each room. Often times things get cut and things get added as I work on the dungeon. Improvisation is an important part of the development.

 

[bradleydfc]

I totally agree with virtually all you said ArtBane. In fact, when I went for my trip to France, I handily kept my "work" notebook by my side, just to jot down a few ideas that would pop into my head every now and again. Later on in that week I did a little "birds-eye view pencil sketch" and a few brainstorms later, I had a dungeon to come back to. I also love the sort of dungeon you are speaking of there. My latest complete dungeon fashions this feature quite well, although it is nothing compared to that of MotW. If you don't mind me picking out an example but the Terr Mountains was the best RMXP dungeon I've ever played. I loved the indoor to outdoor system it boasted. Very good job ArtBane. Great tutorial. :thumb:

 

[Anonymous]

good

 

[DraconicKing]

This helped me a lot! This is cool, and... Thank you ArtBane for posting this tutorial!