Do You Believe in Higher Lifeforms in the Universe?

[The Eternal Storyteller]

It's just, the universe is rather large (understatement of the century), and evidently endless (If it does have an end, humans will never reach it and/or know what lies beyond the end). It is almost ridiculous to think that humans are the highest form of life and Earth is the only populated planet, but I don't question religion. Do you think...aliens exist? Even if it doesn't mean UFO stuff, do you think that there are other, possibly more evolved, lifeforms than us?

I support my argument by saying that there are hundreds, if not thousands of galaxies. And each galaxy has thousands of solar systems and millions of stars. After all, we are just in a little solar system on a very outer part of an arm on the Milky Way galaxy. We can't be the only intelligent life forms, it is just too far-fetched for me to comprehend.

 

[Grathea]

I don't believe in higher lifeforms out there. Sure, there's a possibility that they exist, and may exist in places we never thought they would (i.e. methane-based life forms, for example, would be found in places deemed 'inhospitable' by us), but that doesn't warrant belief, to me.
Generally speaking, I don't believe much. If I have no proof of its existence, I'm unlikely to believe. If I have proof, I still won't believe - knowing is more efficient than believing.

 

[___]

Well, there are a lot of conditions that have to fall into place just perfectly for life to be possible in a given area.  It takes all the right combinations of different kinds of stars in a local area to create all the elements necessary for life; some of the really rare elements can only be created by extremely unique configurations of stars (I think fluorine requires something like a binary star in which a red giant is revolving around a white dwarf so close that the dwarf is drawing off some of the giant's gasses or some nutty combination like that for instance). 

You have to be in the right area of a galaxy where cosmic radiation isn't too high but a full range of elements is available.  Then you have to have a solar system form where there's a planet just the right distance from the right kind of sun with a large enough satellite to perform all the necessary functions our moon does, and that planet has to have just the perfect composition.  The planet has to be just the right size so that it maintains the right level of tectonic activity, it has to have a core that produces the essential magnetic field which keeps out enough harmful radiation.

Basically, everything has to be *just* right for complex life to evolve.  Single-cell, very simple life is probably all over the place of course.  I once heard an estimate that there are only about 7 small areas in our entire galaxy where the conditions are right for complex life to have sprung up based on all the necessary factors at the galactic level, and of those 7 areas we're not sure if any of them have the right solar system configurations, and within those solar systems whether they have the perfect little planet, and so on.

But out of the unimaginable number of galaxies in the universe and the inconceivable varieties of life that could spring up, I still find it hard to believe that there's nothing else out there.  Will we ever come in contact with them?  Probably not in a million years, barring some kind of crazy physics-breaking transportation or communication technology.  But I like to think they're out there.

Oh, in terms of religion, I think it's rather vain to think a creator only bothered to make us, but at the same time knowing what I said above and a whole lot of other things I didn't go into it would be pretty awe-inspiring to think that this whole entire gigantic universe is just a clockwork machine churning out the necessary stuff to make life possible on this tiny little planet.

 

[Nachos]

Totally. It's entirely possible.

 

[Venetia]

I'd say anything's possible.

Spoiler: Hubble Telescope imagery

http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/screen/heic0406a.jpg[/img]

The above pic was taken by the Hubble telescope, at what astronomers believe to be a "baby universe", where all the stars are only about 200 million years old. That's only a portion of the expanse they photographed, and that's only about 1/1,000,000th of all the universes.

Take a close look. Those dots? They're not stars.

They're galaxies.

Entire galaxies, filled with millions of stars, each possibly supporting its own crude planets.

Now just try to imagine that, times 1 million, and then some.

Do you have any idea how insignificantly small we are? It's mind-blowing. I'd say, yes, it's super entirely possible that there's life out there, perhaps with some sort of functionality/technology superior to our own.

But will we ever meet them, in the broad expanse of forever?

That's somewhat possible, although highly improbable!

 

[bashful crobat]

Nphyx, even if rare earth hypothesis were fact, chances are that one of Venetias cute little galaxies has another earth. If I remember correctly, the estimated number of extrasolar planets in the universe exceeds a billion billion.

Also, rare earth sucks. It's widely approved as more or less what happened with Earth, but that's all. It makes huge assumptions about things that humanity (minus rexxz) just doesn't know:

-all life is carbon based
-the effects produced during rare earth youth are necessary for life
-the events during rare earth youth are the only way to achieve the effects

Now that may just be three things, but they're incredibly huge things.

 

[mawk]

Spoiler: Hubble Telescope imagery

http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/screen/heic0406a.jpg[/img]

If you happen to obtain the full-size, full-quality fresh-from-the Hubble version of that image and zoom in on one of those little seemingly empty spots, you get more clusters of galaxies just like the big picture itself. It's completely mind-blowing. Like, space is so damn big. I don't think I could ever really get just how damn huge it is.

Although we can't really be certain about the odds that any given planet has the capacity to support complex life (that sounds so awkward, but what I mean is the ability to support things more complicated than bacteria and other microscopic beasties,) I tend to think that with the sheer number of planets in the sky, we're bound to fall within those odds. Of course, those hypothetical societies aren't necessarily advanced enough to even pick up the radio signals we've been tossing around, much less come down in flying saucers and give us their secret immortality formulas. If there is life out there, too, the odds are against them living in our own backyard. Multiple lightyears likely separate any given life-bearing planet from another -- again, just because everything's so damn big. We're not going to know for sure if there's more intelligent life out there within our lifetimes, and probably not within the next couple of generations' lifetimes, either. It's possible that we'll never know -- at least, not within any predictable time frame. What we'll manage in five thousand years (or whether or not we'll still be around by then) is a tough call to make. But in the meantime, it's sure fun to think about.

 

[kaidus]

Higher life forms? No. There's no way humans can be topped. NO WAY.

 

[Despain]

Yes there are aliens somewhere out there. No, we'll probably never encounter them. Also no, I don't get the "higher lifeforms" part of the question.

 

[Anonymous]

guys

one planet in the solar system has life. another one may have once supported life and/or may have a form of life on it still. two out of eight isn't bad at all.

if there is complex life on other planets it's likely vegetative or aquatic, or maybe dog-like insect things. there may be lifeforms comparable to humans, if not superior to them, but we will most likely never know (within our lifetimes) for certain.

 

[Danny]

An equation has been formed on the basis of our galaxy and studied other galaxies and involving the amount of planets each contain and then the addition of facts about these planets(if they have oxygen or not, amount of life forms etc.).

Anyway in the end this formula theortically calculates the current amount of alien civillizations to be something like a billion billion. That is if the theory is correct. If it is, basically thee are an extreme amount of other beings out there, we are just in the unofrtunate position that we are in a secluded sector of the galazy where our resources are not great enough for us to reach any of these beings, and that we are so far away that they are likely unaware of our existance or unable to reach us.

To sum, earth is the universes nigel

 

[Kaoii]

universe is rather large (understatement of the century), and evidently endless

Actually, we've proven it does end :P. If memory serves me correctly, the universe is shaped like a either a sphere or a donut. That means, whenever you were to hit the end, theoretically you would just spin back (similar the earth being round).

 

[Level10]

I don't understand what you mean by 'higher' life forms. If life elsewhere in the universe has come about in the same way it has here, through evolution, then no one form of life is higher than the others. Homo sapiens are just as evolved as slugs, crocodiles, or any other life form we know of. Even if life outside earth didn't come about via a process similar to evolution, what objective comparison would we be able to make in order to say which life form is better?

 

[mawk]

By "higher," the Storyteller probably means one of two things:

- Lifeforms that display roughly the same level of ingenuity and intelligence as humans -- i.e., sentient beings.
- Sentient lifeforms with a more technologically advanced society than ours.

I find the former to be a bit more likely, since there's really no way of guessing which aliens are smarter than us and which have yet to invent the telephone.

 

[___]

Nphyx, even if rare earth hypothesis were fact, chances are that one of Venetias cute little galaxies has another earth. If I remember correctly, the estimated number of extrasolar planets in the universe exceeds a billion billion.

Also, rare earth sucks. It's widely approved as more or less what happened with Earth, but that's all. It makes huge assumptions about things that humanity (minus rexxz) just doesn't know:

A somewhat fair counterpoint in part

-all life is carbon based

The only other base element that has any potential for the kinds of complex interactions that carbon does that are absolutely critical for the development of protiens and other complex molecules is silicon, and the conditions in which silicon is capable of behaving like carbon are also rather extreme and narrow.  So more than likely all life as we know and define it is carbon based, extremely exotic proposals like self-organized crystalline-light entities and such aside.

-the effects produced during rare earth youth are necessary for life

Well, certain unique sets of circumstances are going to be necessary at the chemical level for any kind of complex chemical interactions whatever you choose as your base element (based on the above, carbon, or maybe, just maaaybe silicon).  But whether those circumstances are common is not the proper foundation of rare earth hypothesis, the question is whether the right volumes of materials are available.  Life as we know it cannot exist without access to almost every single known element.  Even those that a given animal is not directly made of, at least in trace amounts, are necessary catalysts for other sorts of chemistry that goes on in other portions of life or play other roles in nature. 

If you are missing any significant element your odds of developing something as complicated as a protein drop incredibly dramatically, and some very significant elements are very rare at a galactic scale, requiring as I said before very special kinds of stars in very special circumstances in very specific time periods.  It's a common mistake to assume the universe is just permeated with all varieties of matter from the moment of the big bang; this is not the case.  Stars are the engines for creation of pretty much everything except hydrogen, and a given kind of star only produces a very narrow range of elements - it's not like Sol is up there spitting out everything from helium to plutonium for our personal use.  Each element present in our solar system is the end result of hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands of stars going through their life cycles and flinging it in just the right speed and direction for it to be here in the nice cloud of dust that our dear old yellow sun was born out of.

-the events during rare earth youth are the only way to achieve the effects

Sort of encompassed with the above.

Now that may just be three things, but they're incredibly huge things.

They're rather fair assumptions though.

Nonetheless there is undoubtedly other life out there, somewhere out in the incredible vastness of space, maybe even in several places in our little life hotspot in our own galaxy within realistic reach of a spacefaring race, if not in the span of a single individual's lifetime then certainly over the course of a half a dozen.  Hopefully we'll know soon enough what nearby solar systems look like in better detail and have a better estimate of how often planets like earth show up, and maybe in a couple centuries we'll be able to push little probes through space fast enough that the generation afterward will get the first tentative data back on what life is like out there, if there is any, and that's incredibly exciting to think about


Oh a quick little reply to Miek, in regard to our radio signals:
Another common misconception is that our radio signals, once generated, just sort of radiate out into infinite space for other hypothetical civilizations to pick up and enjoy.  Sadly, they decay pretty quickly in the background noise of the universe and probably don't make it much farther than our solar system if they make it that far   I would love to watch alien TV, but they're gonna need to be transmitting with something better than radio if we're gonna pick it up and vice versa - and who knows, maybe another technology is possible and sitting just outside our current understanding.  Maybe in another couple decades we'll have a marvelous breakthrough in physics that allows us to tap into some new data transmission medium and suddenly puts us in touch with all kinds of other life out there, wouldn't that be awesome :D

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I believe there HAS to be something out there.
Do I think it's one "something"?  No, probably thousands of somethings.  Do I believe they are all "higher" forms of life?  I don't believe in the word and find it retarded, so no.  Would I believe they are "more advanced"? Could be.  At the same time, for every one more advanced technologically there's at least one more who are less advanced I'd wager.
Of course that's making things very generalized.

I've seen some people try to use mathematics to prove we're not alone, but that's really only judging our best kept guessings on what sparked our own start.  At the same time all your proving is the chance of success for us, as another planet with another star might have a whole nother equation.  Hell, maybe sulfur is a better base for life than carbon, and just pops up that much easier (yeah I know, don't bring those sea things up, first thing I could think of was sulfur okay...).

Same time, I've seen people trying to mathematically prove there has to be life, or god, or no god, and all I keep seeing is the assumption that the impossible somehow equals next to zero for people.  Either that or the inevitable equals next to zero.

 

[___]

Well there is a very good reason why carbon is the best base for life, it's the most likely to form chemical bonds with a wide variety of other elements in a broad range of environmental conditions, and can do it with as many as 8 at a time which is otherwise pretty much unheard of in the chemical world. If not for carbon you couldn't even have a basic protein, not with any other element, in almost any condition.  Once again maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe with silicon in very cold environments using a different set of chemicals, but nothing else as far as anyone knows that I'm aware of.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

It's an excellent source, but who knows what's more likely with the infinite variables we would encounter on a solar walk around the block.

That and I like to bust balls with the "nothing else as far as anyone knows", which is pretty much what we're talking about :P

 

[___]

When I say "as far as we know" in this sort of context I mean it as in "very solid scientific observation and fact lead us to believe this" but there's always the possibility that some extremely odd and rare element or isotope that we're actually not familiar with might behave differently.  It all has to do with quantity and relative energy levels of electrons in an atom (and I only have a very general grasp on this so I'm not much good at explaining it any further) as to whether and when they'll bond with other elements, and carbon is very promiscuous in that sense.  So as far as chemically composed life forms carbon is the way to go. 

But that's not to say you might not have some other situations where information has managed to spring up, begin self-organizing, and eventually reach a level of self-awareness and purpose without the aid of chemistry such as in above-mentioned crystalline entities; there's also things like hypothetical anti-matter universes where you might have anticarbon-based life if you want to count that as something different, but we'd never be able to have much interaction with it since we'd annihilate eachother on contact and release vast sums of energy...  Anyway.  Anything non-carbon is extremely weird, and anything non-carbon and non-silicon is just plain whacky, but who's to say in the near-infinite variety of possibility in the universe, or in another hypothetical universe where things work just slightly differently, some other completely distinct and random thing might come up; it just won't be life like we think of it.

 

[iceplosion]

Statistically there has to be aliens, the universe is so big most people can't even comprehend it, big isn't even the right word since we aren't even sure there's an end to it (well no one has ever been to the end of the universe, but there has to be something right?)

Yes there are 'aliens' (I hate that word, most people think of martians or little green men something stupid) there has to be.
although higher life forms? by what standards? I think the main problem here is you have set no standard for what constitutes a 'higher life form' are they physically superior? mentally superior? what if they're really strong but stupid or really weak but incredibly intelligent? then they're better in one way but inferior in another.
Anyway, wouldn't they have a set of completely different standards? what if they valued low intelligence and little to no physical ability very highly? (well...then they would come to earth to worship Paris Hilton...)

set standards for wat constitutes a higher life form to make it easier to say if they exist.