Do modern Christians worship Christ?

[Lithium]

I'm not sure, but I THINK, this qualifies for a Symposium topic.
here's hoping I'm not screwing up

Anyways, a while ago I had a conversation with a friend about religion. My friend and I both believe in Christ and the God of the Christian faith (er... sort of). The difference between us is that, being the son of a preacher, I can't break out of organized religion until I graduate and am out of the house, my friend, though, already has. Eventually we came to the conclusion in our conversation that somewhere along the way, we believe at least, Christianity became warped. It went from being a religion of loving God, loving Christ, loving peace, loving one another, and "saving the lost," to a religion of identity; it became a control mechanism of sorts. At some point, during a sermon one Sunday, I began to write on the back of these green cards we have in the pews, basically I wrote about how the sermon that day had nothing to do with loving Christ, or respecting and loving everyone, even those that sinned, how it had nothing to do with the soul, but rather it was all politics and economy and what we should be giving money for because this was what the church was going to do. Basically I felt like the sermons given in the time that the church meets had become less of lessons and more of "planning time." My youth minister found these cards and read them, he then told me I was a very bitter young man, but that he saw where I got my ideas, and that he could agree with some of them, what's more, he lent me a book, a book called Looking for God Knows What about the very same things.

Basically to sum up the book, the modern day Christ and God seems to have become, and I completely agree with this, a type of "Make you feel better" God, a type of "Political Tool" God, a type of "Hate the sinner as well as the sin" God, a get rich quick scheme, and a list of things to do in order to be "moral" and obtain eternal life.

I can't really word my ideas well, I'm still trying to form them myself, but for now this is the best I can do to communicate them without making my opening comment even more long winded. I was curious as to people's thoughts on this, and, after having a long discussion about it with some friends of various religions, finally worked up the courage to start a topic here

 

[Marcus]

You're absolutely correct in your assumptions and this has been the complaint about organized religion for hundred of years.  Even Jesus expressed his opinion on this subject saying to the effect "Pay Caesar what Caesar is due and pay God what God is due." 

Basically, seperation of church and state but while the church has less influence on the state now than it did 50 years ago, the state is definitely creeping into the church.  Modern Christians need to realize that the Bible is an anthology written and collected by men and most of it is subject to personal interpretation.  Just like all men, we add our own spin on things and this is what happens in church.  You have a preacher who writes up his sermon and says to himself "Ew, I don't like that I'll change it or twist the words in my favor" and this is what leads to misinformation and ignorance.

I'm kind of an unorthodox Christian is this regard.  I don't go to church or read the bible except for the passages directly quoted by Jesus which is really the only thing any contemporary Christian should care about.  If you listen to what Jesus had to say you'll realize that it's the complete opposite of today's warped Christian views.  He preached love for all people including your enemies, tolerance for people who didn't believe or led different life styles, but most importantly he wanted you to remember that you were human and you made mistakes but as long as you actively tried to improve then all was good.

But yeah, I hate the church and everything people do to try and make money and warp the words that people try to live by.

 

[thelivingphoenix]

Yes, modern Christians, the real Christians out there, do worship Christ.  There are quite a number of people running around out there calling themselves Christian when in fact, they are not.  Let's face it; going to church doesn't make you Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a car.  It just doesn't work that way.

Televangelists and all these others that run around and try to make a dollar aren't Christian.  Do you honestly think that God would be happy with a preacher living in a million dollar house and spending millions on transportation with limos and hosting parties and all these other extravagant things when Jesus Christ had not a pillow on which to lay his head?  No, He would not.

If the church is doing good things with the money they ask the congregation for and you can go and watch these things being done, then by all means, give.  But, don't send in money to a church on television unless you want to make the trip to actually see where all the money is going.  Giving to a local church in which you're a member is a lot safer than giving to a charity on television.  I've seen the same commercial for these people trying to get "donated rice" from Taiwan shipped to Africa for months and months now.  They've had more than enough time to get the funds to get that rice shipped.  It's a scam.

There is a fine line between a real Christian and a fake one and it's a line that not many people who call themselves Christian can stay on the right side of.  Christianity has indeed become warped and cut up into denominations where there shouldn't be any.  People ask me what denomination I am and I say that I am simply Christian, because I don't let petty differences in doctrine interfere with my relationship to other Christians.  I may not agree with what they believe the Bible teaches and I'll tell them as much, but I don't get into angry arguments with people over it.

As for God being a "make you feel better" God, yes, I agree, that's what He has been "turned into" by many churches and it is a fallacy of the devil to trick people into thinking that it doesn't matter whether you sin or not, everything's okay, and you don't have to worry about it.  Christians that don't like fire and brimstone preachers wouldn't have liked Jesus very much.

Marcus, rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's means that you are supposed to pay your (legal) taxes in your country and that you are supposed to tithe.  It doesn't necessarily insinuate that there should be a separation of church and state in that instance of scripture.  You're supposed to follow God's law before you follow Caesar's.  It's complicated.

As far as lessons becoming more along the lines of "planning time", the Bible says that faith without works is dead.  In order to get to heaven, you have to have faith in Christ and believe He died on the cross for your sins and you have to have works to show that you believe that.  If you have real faith, you will have works to show for it because your faith will compel you to do these things.  If you truly believe, you will do His work on earth.  But, works without faith will get you nowhere and if you do not believe in Christ, you can do all the good works you can manage, but it won't get you to heaven.  If you are finding yourself not wanting to do His work, Lithium, perhaps you should reassess your faith.  Different people do different things that are considered "works", though, so if you're doing other good things in the name of God than what the church is doing (including witnessing to people, giving food or toys to needy children at Christmas, etc.), that counts.  But, perhaps your church is concentrating more on works than on faith and that is a mistake.  Faith is more important than works, but you need both to get to heaven.

 

[Lithium]

What I meant by "modern Christians" was, those that practice "Christianity" as a majority, it was bad phrasing on my part, basically I wasn't saying those that really worshiped Christ, but rather the people who are going through the motions. As for "planning time," I don't have any issues with doing work. It's not the work that bothers me, but at some point it seems like EVERYTHING becomes "We're appointing new elders," "We're replacing the roof on the church," etc. I just find myself occasionally wondering, "If I knew nothing about Christ, and this was my first time in a church, would I be interested, would I get a point, or would this make me think?" I guess a good example of what I mean is like my youth group, granted I'm not really a big fan of a lot of people in my youth group to be honest, but my youth minister plans what is probably the majority of the mission work my church does, and the youth group carries most of it out, regardless though, every time we come together for a lesson, rather than simply planning, he always gives us something new, something to think about, he's always willing to answer our questions to the best of his ability, even if that's saying, "I honestly don't know, but I'll look at that before the next time we meet, if possible, and get back to you about it." Mission work is important, but so is learning, and the soul.

Regardless I wasn't really talk about planning time in regards to mission work. I can't really phrase what I meant, but all I can say is that I wasn't referring to planning mission work when I said that.

(I really feel like every time I respond I'm being rude, I'd like to clarify that I'm trying to state my points as respectfully as I can and that I'm not trying to be rude here. I apologize for any misunderstanding.)

 

[Grathea]

This is an interesting topic to me.
To begin with, I'd like to quote God's Debris, an interesting thought experiment/novel.

If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.

I also agree that any kind of organized religion is innately flawed.

I'd like to say something here:
In history, there was a man. He fit very closely the definition of 'witch/shaman' in his culture. The common people came to him for advice, and he performed magic.
He had his own special ideas about religion, and the nature of deity.  Instead of tolerating him and his ideas, the religious leaders of the time persecuted him, and eventually trumped up some charges so that they could arrest him, try him, and execute him. In fact, the religious leaders worked hand in hand with the governmental authorities.
And he wasn't just executed -they made him suffer first.
What was this man's name? Jesus of Nazareth.

The above is something I always think about when I see what the church has become nowadays. I'd like to say that belief is different from 'going through the motions', and that the modern church is fairly corrupt. As well, if you're going to ask if modern Christians worship Jesus, you have to realize that many have no idea what he even looked like. Fact1: Jesus was Middle Eastern. While this is by no means exactly what he looked like, it's estimated that Yeshua ben Nazareth looked somewhat like this:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jesusface.jpg[/img]
The above image shocked many fundamentalist Christians when it was released after a study on what Jesus originally looked like.
So, if you're going to ask whether or not Christians worship Jesus, you have to ask whether or not they even know who he was.

 

[Chalupa]

This is indeed a very intiristing topic...  I live in a very, very religious town.  Basicly, if you're not a Christian, your a satanist...  The thing that pisses me (and my mom) off is that they speak of Jesus.  Jesus did this, Jesus did that;  They're worshiping THE WRONG GUY.

And something that I really don't know is considered off topic here;  The Christians in my town are the vast 99.99999% of the younger teens that do drugs (not light stuff either;  14 year olds shooting up heroin!), have sex, make people want to kill them selves, and party.  After they do all the things that I have listed, they go to Jesus (hehe, wrong guy) and pray for forgivness...

 

[thelivingphoenix]

Hi, whether they are worshiping the "wrong guy" or not is a matter of your interpretation of scripture.  Most Christians believe that Jesus was God in the flesh and so, they (and I) believe that they are worshiping the "right guy".  He was an extension of God's existence, much in the same way we have fingers on our hands.  Father, Son, Holy Spirit... three parts of the same whole.  So, you should not say "hehe, wrong guy" and make fun of it, as it is a very valid interpretation of scripture.  Praying to the "wrong guy" would be praying for the forgiveness of a saint or one of the disciples of Christ or even to the virgin Mary, as Catholics do.  Mary, the disciples, the saints, they weren't extensions of God on earth and should not be prayed to for the forgiveness of sins.  Jesus was and should be.

And you also have to consider that many of the teens that say they're Christians are "baby Christians".  They are either not old enough to understand scripture or old enough to care or they're not real Christians, just people who run around and do what they want and cry "I'm Christian!" when it's convenient for them to do so.  When you live your faith every single day and you don't abandon the Christian label when it's convenient for you to, and when you believe Christ died on the cross for your sins, then and only then are you a true Christian.  You have to realize the fact that "younger teens" are typically not old enough to have an understanding of scripture outside of what their parents teach them and if the parents aren't doing their job as Christians, then, well, there is your explanation for that.

And as far as people who aren't Christian being Satanist... you and I know that's not true, BUT the Bible is clear.  God says, "if you are not for Me, you are against Me".  So, as a technicality, no, a Wiccan isn't a "satanist", but what that person is taking part in is also not of God.

 

[Incognitus]

This is why the Church of England is better than any of your American free-market Religiosity: Most of the Bishops in the CofE are atheists. A lot of the congregation too.

Fact1: Jesus was Middle Eastern. While this is by no means exactly what he looked like, it's estimated that Yeshua ben Nazareth looked somewhat like this
The above image shocked many fundamentalist Christians when it was released after a study on what Jesus originally looked like.

You should have seen the look I got from a devout Christian when I suggested that Jesus had returned, but was currently being held in Gitmo as a suspected terrorist suspect. She was obviously one of those people who think Jesus will return wrapped in the flag and speaking with an American accent.

I think historically, it's hard to say who or what these people said or did and whether people are following them properly. I read a very interesting "Jesus Biography"* that said that in all likelihood, the character we know as Jesus was not the loving guy we make him out to be, and things that are now used as a plea for the unity of all mankind have been misinterpreted: Love thy neighbour - but only if thy neighbour is a Jew. It also suggests that, as the idea to take Christianity to the masses was an idea of Paul's, Jesus would probably have been mortified. Jesus is far more an idea than a man, and consequently changes with the ages.

O that note, despite what everyone says about theirs being "a religion of peace", if Jesus, Moses, Muhammad and friends were alive today, one has to wonder what they'd make of all this, and quite frankly where they would stand.
Gut instinct tells me that the world would be a much worse place if they were around to spout their opinions and that, frankly, we're a lot better off in being able to disagree about it. :|



*Will edit later with the specific details: I'm in a rush at the moment and didn't expect to be writing this much!

Edit: Okay, I'm not sure which of the books it is in, but it is either Bruce Chilton's 'Rabbi Jesus', or J.D.Crossan's 'Jesus: Revolutionary'. I'm more confident that it is the former, but flicking through I can't find the specific references.

 

[lunarhiro2002]

Honestly this is all part of the rising "New" Church.  It's part of the Great Apostasy.  It is the duty of every true Christian to confront these questions and preach the Gospel. 

A pastor I heard had a friend who recently moved to the bible belt.  His friend said that monday through friday people acted as if they weren't christian but come sunday practically everyone's garages opened up at the same time to head off to the same church to worship the same God.  But, they weren't christians.  Christianity has become engrained in the culture and a tradition.

It's a really bad example. 

To many people who are professed Christians know everything about Christianity but choose not to follow it.  I can't blame them though, without the Holy Spirt how can you possibly follow Christ?

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

A pastor I heard had a friend who recently moved to the bible belt.  His friend said that monday through friday people acted as if they weren't christian but come sunday practically everyone's garages opened up at the same time to head off to the same church to worship the same God.  But, they weren't christians.  Christianity has become engrained in the culture and a tradition.

We don't agree much lunarhiro, when it comes to religious debates, but this chunk -especially that last statement- is probably the biggest truth in this whole thread.

 

[kaze950]

Do modern Christians worship Christ?

Yes, they do. There is just a difference between true Christians, and people who say they are Christians. Going to church every sunday to pay lip service doesn't make you a Christian. Dunking your head in water doesn't make you a Christian. Those actions would be the equivalent of me painting my skin with brown paint, and calling myself African American.

The above image shocked many fundamentalist Christians when it was released after a study on what Jesus originally looked like.

That is something I find extremely stupid, but true. THere are actually people who claim to be Christians who don't realize that Jesus was jewish (or that, *gasp*, the bible wasn't written in English or even published in America)

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

The 2nd coming will see a White Arian wrapped in the American flag bearing a republican sticker on his diaper.  He will be born to a true blue blooded family who can trace their lineage to the slave owning days and still own the plantation.
We know this for a fact it says so in the bible.  Just don't try to read it, just take my word for it.

 

[Ashirel]

Do modern Christians worship Christ?

Yes, they do. There is just a difference between true Christians, and people who say they are Christians. Going to church every sunday to pay lip service doesn't make you a Christian. Dunking your head in water doesn't make you a Christian. Those actions would be the equivalent of me painting my skin with brown paint, and calling myself African American.

I do hope You Believe in Baptism

 

[Sic Semper Tyranosaurus]

Do modern Christians worship Christ?

Yes, they do. There is just a difference between true Christians, and people who say they are Christians. Going to church every sunday to pay lip service doesn't make you a Christian. Dunking your head in water doesn't make you a Christian. Those actions would be the equivalent of me painting my skin with brown paint, and calling myself African American.

I do hope You Believe in Baptism

I Personally Do Not, But I Don't See what that Has To do With anything He Said.

Mockery aside, conspicuous consumption and consumerism have put something of a damper on what we used to use to judge whether someone is Christian or not. There are multitudes of people who are obnoxiously, aggressively active in informing others of just how very godly they are. They often do this through purchasing Jesus t-shirts, Jesus hats, Jesus toys, Jesus movies, Jesus motivational posters, Jesus bobbleheads, and those insufferable little keychains that speak Bible quotations.

The heart of this post is this: It's become easier, through conspicuous consumption, to advertise belief without everyday practice.

 

[Diaforetikos]

Actually if you read 1st John, he explains how to tell if people are Christians or not. Its really simple. I was randomly reading it today.

1 John 3:10-"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

1 John 2:4-"The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 2:5-"This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."

1 John 5:2-"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands."

Theres more if you read all of 1 John. Its really short. Five chapters.

I think historically, it's hard to say who or what these people said or did and whether people are following them properly. I read a very interesting "Jesus Biography"* that said that in all likelihood, the character we know as Jesus was not the loving guy we make him out to be, and things that are now used as a plea for the unity of all mankind have been misinterpreted: Love thy neighbour - but only if thy neighbour is a Jew. It also suggests that, as the idea to take Christianity to the masses was an idea of Paul's, Jesus would probably have been mortified. Jesus is far more an idea than a man, and consequently changes with the ages.

O that note, despite what everyone says about theirs being "a religion of peace", if Jesus, Moses, Muhammad and friends were alive today, one has to wonder what they'd make of all this, and quite frankly where they would stand.
Gut instinct tells me that the world would be a much worse place if they were around to spout their opinions and that, frankly, we're a lot better off in being able to disagree about it. :|

Edit: Okay, I'm not sure which of the books it is in, but it is either Bruce Chilton's 'Rabbi Jesus', or J.D.Crossan's 'Jesus: Revolutionary'. I'm more confident that it is the former, but flicking through I can't find the specific references.

Where did that guy who wrote the biography get that information from? How could he know something like that. He wasn't there. Nothing like that can be proven. It's only what he believes based off of historical information. Its like Darwin's Theory, theres no proof in any of it. I'm not saying the Bible is true. Im just saying they aren't good sources of accurate information.(I personally believe that the bible is true.)


The bad thing about most of the churches you guys talk about is that they are Catholic churches. Non-Denomination churches take all there information from the bible. All religions are made by man. Now people say that Christianity was made by man as well, which may be true, but its the only religion which is completely uplifting. And don't say, "But God killed people in the bible." You need to understand that HE IS GOD. If you were God, wouldn't your word be final? Wouldn't you say I am aloud somethings that your not. Hes a king. Kings can do whatever they want. He only killed, got angry, or got jealous because the people didn't take heed to his words. He gave them commandments and they didn't listen.(I'm sorry, but that part was really off topic. I apologize.)

And something that I really don't know is considered off topic here;  The Christians in my town are the vast 99.99999% of the younger teens that do drugs (not light stuff either;  14 year olds shooting up heroin!), have sex, make people want to kill them selves, and party.  After they do all the things that I have listed, they go to Jesus (hehe, wrong guy) and pray for forgivness...

Actually, in the bible, Jesus is God. If you think of it the same way you think of how God is everywhere. How is he everywhere? We don't know, but if he can be everywhere, he can certainly put his essence into human form. You can pray to either one. You can ask either one of them for anything. Its still God.

 

[Incognitus]

Where did that guy who wrote the biography get that information from? How could he know something like that. He wasn't there. Nothing like that can be proven. It's only what he believes based off of historical information. Its like Darwin's Theory, theres no proof in any of it. I'm not saying the Bible is true. Im just saying they aren't good sources of accurate information.(I personally believe that the bible is true.)

Why don't you read the book and find out? I'll give away the ending though: it's by comparing the original texts and scrutinising them closely, along with comparing them with what is known about the historical figure and his religious persuasions, as well as those at the time.

*sigh* Darwin's theory has been validated over and over and over and.... you get the picture: most of the people who think it hasn't have either taken their 'popular' Evolution lessons from Gould (which, tragically, is most of the North American continent). Or those who are seeking to keep God relevant in a world which has long since outgrown him.

I'm confused here. "What he believes based off of historical information"? Which bit are you saying isn't "good sources of accurate information"? The Bible?
Are you challenging reasoned historical analysis of examining the work in a large cultural context by affirmed an inaccurate basis, whilst also affirming the accuracy of the work in and of itself?

By denying an objective truth in history, you're opening a very large can of worms.

The bad thing about most of the churches you guys talk about is that they are Catholic churches. Non-Denomination churches take all there information from the bible. All religions are made by man. Now people say that Christianity was made by man as well, which may be true, but its the only religion which is completely uplifting.

That's entirely subjective and, in fact, broadly speaking, utter bollocks.

How can one claim that it is "completely uplifting" when it begins with the assumption that Man = Evil, and the only way one can escape this is by giving yourself over to various out of date "laws" and doing things which should be perfectly self-evident... and they were known and acknowledged by most people long before the Bible was a twinkle in a Scribe's eye. The Church, organised and disorganised, have opposed every major step forward in things such as human rights - and this is "completely uplifting"?

One can find more revealed truth in The Brothers Karamazov than in "The Holy Bible". [In fact, I strongly recommend you go looking for it there ]

Completely uplifting?!

Piffle. Complete and utter meaningless piffle. In order for this to be true, you need to validate it in some way. Can you?

And don't say, "But God killed people in the bible." You need to understand that HE IS GOD. If you were God, wouldn't your word be final? Wouldn't you say I am aloud somethings that your not. Hes a king. Kings can do whatever they want. He only killed, got angry, or got jealous because the people didn't take heed to his words. He gave them commandments and they didn't listen.(I'm sorry, but that part was really off topic. I apologize.)

Giving that the Bible is merely a collection of stories about a violent tribal deity, who has since been surfused and "enhanced" by everything from Plato's philosophy, to Nordic customs, and most of it entirely fictictious, and about as representive of the time as Hellboy is of the second World War, it is clearly open for criticism. I mean, how can anyone honestly take a deity who places being rude to one's parents on the same level as murder? Once we remove Yahweh from the sacred unquestionable spheres that he has occupied for far too long and bring him down to an ordinary level, one can see that he's really a petty, silly, arbitary mess of a creature. I'm assuming that your one of the Pick'n'Mix Christians - Go and look how backwards Man would be if we actually listened to him.

If God exists, he gets one vote - just like everyone else.

Actually, in the bible, Jesus is God. If you think of it the same way you think of how God is everywhere. How is he everywhere? We don't know, but if he can be everywhere, he can certainly put his essence into human form. You can pray to either one. You can ask either one of them for anything. Its still God.

If God is everywhere anyway, he is already within all of us. Strip away at least 1500 years of cultural "ammendments" by the Church etc, and you'll find that when Jesus describes himself as "the Son of God", either through metaphor or whatever, he is actually making it very clear that it is universal. That we are all "the Son (or daughter) of God" Basically affirming individuality and responsibilty, a "religious anarchist" who took away the spiritual power from the rabbis who claimed to have it and giving it to the masses. Since then, however, the religious establishments have moved to place Jesus, along with God and Heaven back behind the Pearly Gates to which only they hold the keys: this cultural shift has stuck with us.

But we are digressing. I suppose it can be expected from religion topic, but still.

 

[lunarhiro2002]

*sigh* Darwin's theory has been validated over and over and over and.... you get the picture: most of the people who think it hasn't have either taken their 'popular' Evolution lessons from Gould (which, tragically, is most of the North American continent). Or those who are seeking to keep God relevant in a world which has long since outgrown him.

Validated really?  So it's the LAW of evolution?  Someone managed to witness some creature go from 1 species to another?  Even though 10,000 fruit fly generations of come and gone in some lab the best that they can come up with is a deformed mutated uncapable of flying 4 winged fruit fly. 

By darwins own account he couldn't conceive of why the human eye would "evolve" to give us sight.

How can one claim that it is "completely uplifting" when it begins with the assumption that Man = Evil, and the only way one can escape this is by giving yourself over to various out of date "laws" and doing things which should be perfectly self-evident... and they were known and acknowledged by most people long before the Bible was a twinkle in a Scribe's eye. The Church, organised and disorganised, have opposed every major step forward in things such as human rights - and this is "completely uplifting"?

You are so ignorate honestly.  If you even read the first few pages of the Bible you realize that it wasn't written till much much later then when it starts.  Adam & Eve didn't have a "Bible" or cannon.  They KNEW what was right and wrong, so did Issac/Israel/Jacob/Abraham.  These rules are intrinsic to every human being.

Human rights?  Honestly again please define how the Church has told people that someone is beneith them.  Last time I check all had sined.  You hold the Church accountable for people who claim to be Christians or even historical misrpresentations.

Giving that the Bible is merely a collection of stories about a violent tribal deity, who has since been surfused and "enhanced" by everything from Plato's philosophy, to Nordic customs, and most of it entirely fictictious, and about as representive of the time as Hellboy is of the second World War, it is clearly open for criticism. I mean, how can anyone honestly take a deity who places being rude to one's parents on the same level as murder? Once we remove Yahweh from the sacred unquestionable spheres that he has occupied for far too long and bring him down to an ordinary level, one can see that he's really a petty, silly, arbitary mess of a creature. I'm assuming that your one of the Pick'n'Mix Christians - Go and look how backwards Man would be if we actually listened to him.

If God exists, he gets one vote - just like everyone else.

If you understood the concept of sin you'd realize why being rude to your parents gives you the same result as murdering your neighbor.  Here is an example:

If you were to bake a cake and while you were mixing the ingredients you decided to put a very very small amount of cat poo it in.  Wouldn't it ruin the whole cake.   that would go to for a larger amount. 

and if God did have 1 vote he'd have the final ultimate vote.  Kinda like speaking existence into existence.

If God is everywhere anyway, he is already within all of us. Strip away at least 1500 years of cultural "ammendments" by the Church etc, and you'll find that when Jesus describes himself as "the Son of God", either through metaphor or whatever, he is actually making it very clear that it is universal. That we are all "the Son (or daughter) of God" Basically affirming individuality and responsibilty, a "religious anarchist" who took away the spiritual power from the rabbis who claimed to have it and giving it to the masses. Since then, however, the religious establishments have moved to place Jesus, along with God and Heaven back behind the Pearly Gates to which only they hold the keys: this cultural shift has stuck with us.

But we are digressing. I suppose it can be expected from religion topic, but still.

Yes we are all Son's or Daughters of God.  I wish you would read more about the early church before making your statements.  The early Church already believed that the Christ was the God in flesh.  100% God 100% human.  If you read the writings of the deciples and apostle's you'd realize they believed Jesus was literally God. 

 

[Diaforetikos]

Incognitus' whole argument can be countered if he read the bible.

Validated really?  So it's the LAW of evolution?  Someone managed to witness some creature go from 1 species to another?  Even though 10,000 fruit fly generations of come and gone in some lab the best that they can come up with is a deformed mutated uncapable of flying 4 winged fruit fly.

By darwins own account he couldn't conceive of why the human eye would "evolve" to give us sight.

To add on to this statement, you have to think about how humans are. So its by chance that we were randomly made from animals millions of years ago because of an explosion. Then we developed into insanely smart humans. With Darwin's Theory, how do you explain the warmth of a hug or the feeling of a kiss? Who created cuss words? How do we feel guilty? How do you explain laughter? It doesn't make sense.

If you understood the concept of sin you'd realize why being rude to your parents gives you the same result as murdering your neighbor.  Here is an example:

If you were to bake a cake and while you were mixing the ingredients you decided to put a very very small amount of cat poo it in.  Wouldn't it ruin the whole cake.  that would go to for a larger amount.

and if God did have 1 vote he'd have the final ultimate vote.  Kinda like speaking existence into existence.

To add to this as well... sin is sin. We know as humans if we sin. Simple as that. If you can't tell, your blind to sin. Read 1 John.


The thing about most of the people who write against the bible is that they never read it. And when they do read it, they read only looking for information to disprove it. If you read it with an open mind, maybe you'll where were coming from. And don't read into it. It may be worded weird, but don't take more from it than whats there.

 

[Sic Semper Tyranosaurus]

*sigh* Darwin's theory has been validated over and over and over and.... you get the picture: most of the people who think it hasn't have either taken their 'popular' Evolution lessons from Gould (which, tragically, is most of the North American continent). Or those who are seeking to keep God relevant in a world which has long since outgrown him.

Validated really?  So it's the LAW of evolution?  Someone managed to witness some creature go from 1 species to another?  Even though 10,000 fruit fly generations of come and gone in some lab the best that they can come up with is a deformed mutated uncapable of flying 4 winged fruit fly.   

This is the last time I'll post in this thread, because I can feel my brain dribbling out my ears just reading these posts.

 

[Incognitus]

"Validated really?  So it's the LAW of evolution?  Someone managed to witness some creature go from 1 species to another?  Even though 10,000 fruit fly generations of come and gone in some lab the best that they can come up with is a deformed mutated uncapable of flying 4 winged fruit fly.

Evolution does not have "laws". It has quite a few rules (mostly "of thumb"), but I'm not really sure about any rules. Of course, I would never pretend to know the full scale and scope of evolutionary biology so as to find the smallest gaps into which I may stuff my tribal deity.

By darwins own account he couldn't conceive of why the human eye would "evolve" to give us sight.

You're about a hundred years out of date. Scientists have worked hard, and discovered the path that the eye took to evolve, and found evidence of the various steps concurrent in nature, as well as eyes which are developed further

You're making a HUGE HUGE fallacy here: You're basically going backwards, assuming that, because we have sight, we must have sight, and that these is no way we could have, say... echo location instead. It's the "Jumbo Jet from Junk Yard" error.

Basically:

1: Fish have fins.
2: Fish swim in the sea.

QED: Fish have to have fins, because they swim in the sea.

In actuality: Because they swim in the sea, fish have fins.

You are so ignorate honestly.

No. No. Please, I assure you, I'm "ignorant".

If you even read the first few pages of the Bible you realize that it wasn't written till much much later then when it starts.  Adam & Eve didn't have a "Bible" or cannon.  They KNEW what was right and wrong, so did Issac/Israel/Jacob/Abraham.  These rules are intrinsic to every human being.

I've been through it from cover to cover, and read most of the apocryha. I'd also like to point out that they didn't know what was right and wrong until they ate the fruit. Doi. Everyone knows that!
The fact that the various assumptions are that, because we have a sense of morality, does not validate the Bible or Biblical "history".

It is an interesting argument in favour of a creator or Creating Force, but it is not required given that all species show a certain level of altruism which helps the group as a whole survive.

Human rights?  Honestly again please define how the Church has told people that someone is beneith them.  Last time I check all had sined.  You hold the Church accountable for people who claim to be Christians or even historical misrpresentations.

No I don't. I hold people accountable for stating that Christianity is "the only religion which is completely uplifting." The whole idea or concept of religion and religious rights has evolved demonstratively, invalidating the Bible's claim as an objective truth. The Bible is merely a tool onto which each culture's present moral inclinations are reflected and interpreted against: You can do that with any piece of literature.

If you understood the concept of sin you'd realize why being rude to your parents gives you the same result as murdering your neighbor.

There are far more important crimes that should be up there with "The Big Ten" than being rude to your parents. Genocide, for instance? How about rape? Isn't Slavery a good one to ban? Of course it isn't: Yahweh was busy commanding people to do that to other people all the time.

Yes we are all Son's or Daughters of God.  I wish you would read more about the early church before making your statements.  The early Church already believed that the Christ was the God in flesh.  100% God 100% human.  If you read the writings of the deciples and apostle's you'd realize they believed Jesus was literally God.

Er... yeah. That's what I'm saying. They apparently believed he was literally God, although if you go back slightly, ever so slightly, earlier than that, you'll find that Jesus was from an area which produced some strong gnostics - the gnostic outlook of Yeshua permeates every page of the Gospels.

The thing about most of the people who write against the bible is that they never read it. And when they do read it, they read only looking for information to disprove it. If you read it with an open mind, maybe you'll where were coming from. And don't read into it. It may be worded weird, but don't take more from it than whats there.

Unfortunately, your little theory does not apply to me, nor will it apply to many others who deny the existence of Yahweh. I feel like invoking Bertrand Russell's celestrial teapot here, however - all things being honest - I shall instead do what you have done: I shall recommend that you read Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian", and maybe then you'll understand where I'm coming from. And read into it. It may be worded weird, but do, do read into it: that's what it's there for.

(Fortunately, we - the nonreligious types - don't have anything like John 15:6, John 12:48 or Corinthians 1:10 to inhibit us)

This is the last time I'll post in this thread, because I can feel my brain dribbling out my ears just reading these posts.

I hope that's not on my account SS. Tyrano?

When you put the evolution of all those various things such as skin colour or hue, disease resistance or other various "racial markers" in perspective of the entirely of human evolution (If you hold out your arms as far as possible, if the left hand is when life first appeared on earth, Humans don't show up until you file your right hand's fingernail) it really puts it into perspective how pathetically absurd racism is. And Yahweh: who diminishes the overwhelming awesomeness of it all, by insisting that he claims credit.