Debate Classics : Religion

[Jonathan]

Speaking from a scientific perspective, we, on Earth, have an extremely geocentric view of the Universe. What applies on Earth should also apply throughout the Universe, when that is simply not the case.

Genesis 1:2 says the spirit of God hovered over earth, so there is no case of relatively speaking, God was on (or over actually, lol) Earth at the time of creation.

As for questions of accuracy, have you even looked into this? Here are some interesting statistics.

Homer (Iliad): Written: 900 B.C
Earliest Copy: 400B.C
Time difference: 500yrs
No of Copies (Written manuscripts): 643

Homers Iliad is the most reliable ancient book apart from, you guessed it, the Bible. Lets Compare (first the new testament, which deals more with salvation etc, very important points of the christian faith).

New Testemant: Written: 40-100AD
Earliest Copy: 125AD
Time Difference Only 25yrs!
No of Copies (again, written manuscripts from around that time): OVER 24,000!!

With this sort of textual back up, and the fact that the New Testament was written in Greek, a language we have a very good knowledge of, we can be sure we are reading what was written.

As for the Old Testament, The Hebrew scribes that wrote it could br put to death for making mistakes. To ensure this, they had these incredibly strict rules.

1. A synagogue roll must be written on the skins of clean animals.
2. They must be prepared for use by a Jew.
3. These must be fastened with strings from clean animals.
4. Every skin must contain an equal number of columns, throughout the entire codex.
5. The Length of each column must not be more than 60 or less than 48 lines, and the breadth must be 30 letters.
6. The whole copy must be first lined, and if 3 words be written without a line, it is worthless.
7. The ink must be only black, prepared by a special recipe.
8. An authentic copy must be absolutely copied from, no deviations at all.
9. No word, or letter, or even a yod must be written from memory, the scribe not having looked at the authentic copy before him.
10. Between every constanant the breadth of a hair must intervene.
11. Between every parashah (or section) the breadth of nine constanants.
12. Between every book, three lines exactly.
13. The fifth book of Moses (Deutoronomy) must terminate exactly with a line; but the rest need not do so.
14. Besides these rules, the Scribe must sit in full Jewish dress,
15. Wash his whole body,
16. Not begin to write the name of God (YHWH) with a pen newly dipped in ink.
17. Should a king adress him whilst writing the name of God, he must take no notice of him.

These rules were strictly adhered to. The copies that the scribes made were so accurate, that they ranked as accurate as older copies, and so older copies were often burned when the cupboards ran out of room! This explains why we do not have any manuscripts of the Old testament older than 500BC.

Again, with copying techniques like this, and an accurate knowledge of ancient hebrew (Which we have adequate knowledge of and are gaining more and more) we can be sure that the bible we hold in our hands is what was written all those thousands of years ago.


As you can see, i have researched this at length (awesome book called evidence that demands a verdict). However, rhazdel, you wrongly claim the Bible was written in "many languages", when it was only written in three, mainly Hebrew and Greek, with a tiny bit of Aramaic. I guess you didn't.

Seriously, if you are going to try to discredit the Bibles accuracy, at least look into it first... I know you said your post wasn't to be used as an argument, but even so, you should have looked into it first.

@FoxDemonSoavi: Yes the old testament is full of social laws (many of which had incredible medical knowledge for the time quaranteen(sp?) etc.), but have you read the New testament?

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It isn't by doing stuff, adhering to social laws that we are saved, it is by Gods grace! It is by a dying man, going through hell so you don't have to. That is the essence of christianity. No other religion has this unconditional grace except christianity. In Islam, you have to work to get into heaven, In Hinduism, you have to work to get up on the next rung as it were of reincarnation, so that eventually you will get out of the cycle, In Judaism, you have to work to please God. Even catholicism seems to be based more on rituals than the word of God. But none of this makes sense. Even if you do a thousand good things, and only one sin, you still won't get into heaven. It only took one sin for adam and eve to get chucked out of the garden of Eden, likewise it only takes one sin to lose entry to a personal relationship with God. But if we were to be made sinless in God's eyes... That is what Jesus did. He took the punishment, so we walk free.

Christianity isn't just another ritualistic religion. It isn't about perfection, it is about forgiveness (what a fantastic cheesy catchphrase to end with!).

 

[Rhazdel]

The Bible was transcribed from oral stories from hundreds of years (remeber that large quantities of the Bible take place BEFORE the birth of Christ? Remember?). These oral stories were in fact in many languages. So while the Hebrew scribes may have not made any errors (highly unlikely), the stories that they perfectly transcribed had to first be interpreted. Any time you interpret anything, you are prone to errors and things being lost in the translation.

I DID think about it before I wrote it, or I wouldn't have written it! I am not claiming that the Bible is screwed up, I simply am mentioning it as a fact that it HAS POSSIBLY been tainted by translation.

Genesis 1:2 says the spirit of God hovered over earth, so there is no case of relatively speaking, God was on (or over actually, lol) Earth at the time of creation.

And, have you ever considered that it also claims that God's spirit is infinite and everpresent? That passage can be interpreted in many different ways.

It isn't by doing stuff, adhering to social laws that we are saved, it is by Gods grace!

The Bible specifically states that "Faith without works is dead".

Yes, the act of Jesus' sacrifice upon the cross was to redeem the ill works of man and 'purify' our souls, but Jesus also preached faith through good works. Ultimately, yes, it is up to God's grace, but you still must prove your love for your fellow man!


Also, I would again like to point out that I am, in fact, agnostic, so I am trying to remain neutral, but this logic doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Grandor]

Christians choose to believe the Bible because it contains the words of God. Because it contains fulfilled prophecy. Because it was written by the people who were there - moses, the apostles. If all science has to offer against the bibles corroborated testimony is that it's "impossible" then it is supporting the most critically naive mindset available.

The word of God? Are you sure? Don't you think it could have been possible that a man may have wrote it? Or what do you think? Do you think that God inspired someone to write it with the Holy Spirit, or did God literally come down from Heaven and hand us this thing. The fact of the matter is, it was written by man. And what causes me to doubt it, is you could be reading a well written story by several authors rather then God himself.

 

[arcthemonkey]

Grandor, I swear you are trying to sound ignorant.

I never claimed God wrote it. Nobody claimed that.

What I mean when I say it contains the words of God is that people wrote down the things God said. You know, God said words, they put them in the book, so the words were in the book.

I've never been given a valid reason to not believe what the Bible says. I can go on an on about how the testimony of the apostles is reliable, about the purity of the text, about the contexts, symbolism, and fulfilled prophecy, and it has become exceedingly clear that you would, again, completely disregard all of it.

The Bible specifically states that "Faith without works is dead".

Read this:
http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm
(For the lazy)

...in the middle of his section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God's existence.

James is simply saying that if you ‘say' you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested or your faith is false. This sentiment is echoed in 1 John 2:4 which says, "If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar."
Apparently, there were people who were saying they were Christians, but were not manifesting any of the fruit of Christianity. Can this faith justify? Can the dead ‘faith' that someone has which produces no change in a person and no good works before men and God be a faith that justifies? Absolutely not. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: "We believe Jesus lived."
Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.
Therefore, we are justified by faith. That is, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by faith as is amply demonstrated by Romans. However, that faith, if it is true, will result in deeds appropriate to salvation. After all, didn't God say in Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

 

[Rhazdel]

ArctheMonkey, are you trying to support my statement or debate it? The format of your post suggests the latter, but the context of the article you have quoted supports that faith and works together lead to salvation, and neither faith nor works alone will - which was my original point.

This is a serious question, because I really just wasn't sure and I don't want to respond inappropriately.

 

[Jonathan]

The Bible was transcribed from oral stories from hundreds of years (remeber that large quantities of the Bible take place BEFORE the birth of Christ? Remember?).

No offence rhazdel, but again you show your ignorance (for want of a better word) of what the Bible is. Yes the vast majority of the bible took place before Jesus birth (about 2/3 of it actually), But the cast majority of the Bible was ALREADY WRITTEN DOWN by the time Jesus was born!! The old testament (the law, the prophets and the writings) had been being recorded for hundreds and hundreds of years before Jesus birth. the oldest manuscript we have are the dead sea scrolls (500BC) (which agree almost completely (save very minor spelling mistakes, which don't affect the message) with the Bible we have today) but it is certain that the talmudists (scribes) had been keeping records long before that (like i said in my above post, the new copies of the OT were so accurately copied from older manuscripts, that older manuscripts were often disposed of, because the new one ranked exactly with the old one.).

Only the New testament was written after Jesus death, (from about 10 to 70 years after he died) and i have already given evidence to it's accuracy aswell.

As for errors in transcribing oral stories, they were often written by eye witnesses (Moses etc.) but even the ones that weren't, i mean come on, this is the Bible, it was inspire by God, the holy spirit, and God doesn't make mistakes! Obviously that isn't good evidence for non-christians, but if the Bible is the word of god, which i believe it is, then it is a very good justification.

Faith without deeds will fall, but likewise deeds without faith will fall. Deeds, if you will is the outward expression of your love for God, but it WILL NOT get you into heaven. It isn't by works we are saved but by grace. Works are only the outward expression of our thankfulness, if you will, the evidence that we are christians to other people.

 

[Rhazdel]

Wow, way to backpedal on everything you have previously said.

Let's take these in order, shall we?

First, you said that the Bible is super accurate because it was written down by Hebrew scribes 125 years after Jesus' death. I said that it was a compilation of older texts and transcribed oral stories. Now, you tell me I'm "ignorant" because....."it was transcribed oral stories and super accurate previous texts?" Am I the only one that is seeing this?

And the argument of "C'mon....it's the Bible" is the worst argument I have ever heard. All I have mentioned is the possible fact that some things in the Bible could have been slightly perverted (which means 'to turn away from' or 'distort', so don't jump down my throat for my word choice). Just because parts of it were "inspired by God" does not mean they are free from bias, misinterpretation or flat-out errors.

And the last argument I had was a counter argument to another of your statements. You said Christianity was great because, unlike other religions, you just need to have faith to be saved. I said that you need faith AND works, and you correct me, saying the same thing I have said?

 

[arcthemonkey]

The context of that article did not support your argument. The entire point of the article is that faith is evidenced by works. It says that if you have true faith, you will do good works as a result. In other words, we are not saved by our works, rather, our works are a manifestation of our salvation.

Again, demons have faith - but it is a dead faith, and it bears no fruit.

So, my statement is this - One of the manifestations of a living faith is good works. A dead faith does not manifest as good works. It isn't the works that saves us, rather, it's the living faith that leads to those works.

Then again, we are all sinners, and we struggle against our salvation.

"If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar." 1 John 2:4

 

[Rhazdel]

That actually was my point. My posting about "Faith without works is dead" was in response to Jonathon saying that all someone needs to have is faith, and they are redeemed. He even specifically says that you do not need to have to do any good works, only faith brings salvation.

I was merely pointing out that faith without works is dead, and likewise, works without faith are dead.

There are many cases of extremists that have a lot of faith but do not show any works worthy of, or resulting from, their "salvation". Extremist groups (the KKK, most prominently) consider themselves highly religious and moral, following the teachings of God and Jesus, but their works evidence none of those teachings.

This is because they have a skewed perception of the teachings, believing them to teach something other than their true meaning.

The point I am trying (or was trying) to make is that even if you have faith, your works should be appropriate to that in order to be saved, according to the Bible. Faith alone is not sufficient.

 

[Jonathan]

About the previous post i said you were ignorant because you said (or implied, this is how i understood it) that none of the Bible had been written down until after Jesus death. this is a plainly wrong view since, two thirds was already compiled before Jesus was born. Only the new testament was writeen 40 to 100 years after Jesus birth (NOT 125 like you said.) The only reason i said you were ignorant (like i said, for want of a better word) is that you seem to imply something that is demonstrably wrong.

As for the faith thing, the KKK almost certainly didn't have faith. There works went against what the Bible said, and thus their faith was none existant. It was 'dead'. But what i said is you don't need works to be saved, you need faith. Faith comes first (and is sufficient), and then works follow as an outward expression of that faith, not an extra requirement to go to heaven. To give an example, this is like needing yeast (faith) to make bread, and the bread rising (deeds) is an outward expression of the yeast working within it. The rising isn't something the bread does, it is something the yeast does. Likewise deeds shouldn't come from our own effort, trying to work our way to God, they should come as a result of our faith, because we know we are
saved, and thus want to do what God wants as thanks. O.k, that example sucks, but hopefully you get the idea. You don't need works to be saved, you need faith, and then the works come as a result of being saved...

Here is a Bible verse, because the Bible can explain it better than me (not surprisingly)

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards people who earnestly seek him.

Faith comes first, and it is by faith we have been saved.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

It is by grace we have been saved, not works. works are an outward expression of our love for God.

The scripture that arcthemonkey quoted abaove is great aswell.

 

[Rhazdel]

If you want to argue the semantics of it, we can.

So, demons have faith (they believe in God), but because they do not love him (and show this through good works, and a 'godly lifestyle') they are not redeemed.

However, if someone has faith and they accept the godly lifestyle (thus doing good works) they are saved.

But, you are right, works have nothing to do with it (Sarcasm). They are different means by which you reach the same end. All you are arguing is word choice.

You said that good works should come from deep faith. Faith, by definition, is simply the belief in God, and does not imply action. But, this faith SHOULD dictate your actions, and if the belief is true, your actions (works) should be good.

Works should be one (of many) affirmations of your faith, and therefore you can say that it is both faith and the works that come from this faith that redeem you.

Faith without good works (godly lifestyle) is not real faith, and thus does not bring salvation. Thus: "Faith without works is dead".

Go ahead. Pick it apart and we can argue semantics some more.

 

[Tori]

lol....

I do not have time to read 11 some odd pages of forum, but if I must later that is fine. Maybe this has already been said, and if so, then that is also fine. I grew up going to church and loving GOD. Ask me stuff about the Bible, and I could most likely point you in the right direction. I am a very logical and analytical person. I am not a person to judge you (although I am in no way perfect and do judge every once in a while, but I catch myself and will apologize.). However, I don't base my life off logic. Been there, done that, JESUS whens every time. Being in college and all, I have come to see many people base everything off logic. I do it a lot. It is actually good to actually think through situations and I highly respect people for that. However, I could sit on this forum and "argue" and "debate" about Christianity all the day long until I make myself look stupid or get so mad as to say something not very nice. So, logically, what does that accomplish? It's meaningless. However, I love you guys and gals so much. I want you all to know and feel what I know and feel. I am in no way better than you. JESUS had to shed HIS blood and die for all. I need HIM everyday. HE is the air I breath and the Lover of my soul. Thank you JESUS.

The point I am making about logic and "debating" and whatnot is that I truly respect people if they really ask questions. GOD is so much bigger than our minds. HE is the author of knowledge. I want to encourage, no, challenge everyone, including myself to truly search. HE is there waiting and loving.

Christianity shouldn't be about rules, but a relationship. I apologize for any of my fellow brothers or sisters (especially myself) for ever making you not want to just surrender everything to the King of Good Things.

I could sit here and quote Bible verses until I am blue in the face. Yes, I believe the Bible is GOD breathed and is without error, but I don't want to sit here and argue and bicker about it forever and ever amen. I know that I don't have all the answers. I wish I did and I wish I could show you how wonderful it is to be free from yourself and free from sin (not that I don't sin, because I do. I am a sinner, but I am covered by CHRIST's blood.). However, I am not GOD and I am thankful for that. I pray that HE shows you who HE is and that you recognize HIS calling.

Love. It's all about love, and I love you all so much. But GOD loves you more, so much more. Most have heard the verse (especially those that have gone to a Christian church...lol) John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

But how many of you have looked farther at John 3:17:
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

I emphasize love so much because that is the most important. Yes, Christ is my Savior, King, Master, Redeemer, etc. But He is also my Lover, Friend, Father.

I am not going to start my first post by giving you Bible trivia or whatever. I want to love you. Keep searching for HIM. HE knows where you are, where you have been, and where you are going. NEVER stop until you find HIM. Ask HIM, even if you don't believe in JESUS or even GOD, to reveal the real HIM to you. But you know what you have to do? You have to let your guard down. It is hard, I know. I am VERY VERY logical. JESUS is the only way, because HE made the only way.

If anyone has questions or whatnot you can PM me. Remember, I am not looking for a fight, I am looking for Truth, HIS Truth. I love you all and am praying for you.

May the LORD my GOD bless you and keep you. May HIS Face shine upon you. May HE be gracious to you.

In HIS Grace,
Tori
Romans 5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more"

 

[Roman Candle]

Think about it like this:
A man without a kidney is dead.
A man with a kidney is not neccessarily alive.
A man without a kidney, but with a dialysis machine is not neccessarily dead.

The point being made is that if you had faith, it implies that you do good works. If you don't do any good deeds, then it implies that you don't have faith - but it's not neccessarily true, it's more of a suggestion.

 

[Rhazdel]

But, if you are to follow the Bible in order to show your faith, and the Bible preaches only love and good deeds, shouldn't someone with complete faith only to good? Wouldn't anything less be against the Bible and thus, against faith?

I don't understand how someone that does not do good works can claim to have faith (like in my previous example of the KKK). If you put your faith into the Bible and its teachings, then all your actions should stem from those teachings, thus you would only do good.

 

[Roman Candle]

No one can have perfect faith, just like no one can lead a perfect life. You do as much as you can, and you repent, and you are saved.

 

[Rhazdel]

I'm not claiming they need to be perfect. Jonathon initially said that you don't have to do anything to be saved, just have faith. I was just pointing out that the Bible does say that claiming faith and proving your faith are two, separate things.

Anyone can claim to have faith, but only when your actions follow those claims (faith dictating behavior) does the Bible claim you are truly saved.

As I said: "Faith without works is dead"

 

[Roman Candle]

only when your actions follow those claims ... does the Bible claim you are truly saved

Does not follow from

Faith without works is dead

There's a difference between claiming to have faith, having faith, and both being faithful and doing good works. Anyone can claim to have faith, but you seem to be implying that just leading a normal life, without giving all your clothes to the poor and your money to the church, is not enough. You don't need to do anything 'extra' to 'prove' your faith. God knows whether or not you have faith.

As I said before, just living your life without being spiteful is a good work. Anyone who had faith would do that. It makes perfect sense that if someone was horrible and never did anything nice, then you could assume that they did not have faith - that their faith was dead.

 

[Rhazdel]

Exactly. I never meant to imply that every Christian needs to rush out and give away all their earthly possessions. Good deeds come in more forms than one.

The Bible teaches love and help for your fellow man. If someone comes to you in serious need of, say, financial aid, and you are more than capable of providing it (I'm not talking about giving them the shirt off of your back, but capable), and you do not, that would go against the teachings in the Bible. If you truly had faith in the Bible's message, you would follow its teachings. Anything less could be considered a deviation from those teachings and, thus, a deviation from the faith.

People tend to associate the word "Works" with very materialistic things. Simply providing counsel to a troubled person is very much a good work and is in line with the Bible's teachings.

I do not believe there is any faith without works, because, as ArctheMonkey said, works come FROM faith. I fail to see a "middle ground" here. There may be works without faith (there are many people that do tremendous things for their fellow man with no faith), but I do not think there can be any real faith without works.

The Bible teaching more than "just believing", it teaches LIVING the faith.

When people say "all you need is to believe" it gives people the false impression that simply saying "There is a god" is good enough. Murder, rape, steal....but repent and be saved. That is simply not what the Bible states.

 

[FoxDemonSoavi]

ummm al lot of what the bible says to do is NOT good things to do. like stoning people who work on the sabbath. (forget the passage)

 

[Rhazdel]

Actually, a lot of what is in the Old Testament is full of sinners. That is why Jesus came. If you remember, Jesus stops the townspeople from stoning a woman, and tells the crowd "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". It was his message to not judge each other and treat each other well. That is why the Old Testament is full of the "Fire and Brimstone" stuff. Before man received the full message from Jesus.

Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, the Egyptians must suffer the Plagues, etc. It was all a moral lesson. Just because it is in the Bible does not mean the Bible advocates it.